[{"id":50,"title":"Sperm-Jacked in the Ton: the Good Girls Rake their Way Through Bridgerton","slug":"Sperm-Jacked-Ton-Good-Girls-Rake-Through-Bridgerton","description":"We spill the spiked tea on all things Bridgerton...books, show seasons, and the highly questionable consent dynamics that somehow still deliver pure escapism. SJ dives deep while Kay experiences it all for the first time (no prior books or full seasons watched...up until the last 2 weeks), leading to debates over Daphne’s under-the-table sperm-jacking, Simon’s pull-out game, Anthony’s bee-sting tit-sucking heroics, and Benedict’s magically healed stab wound after a quick bandage and pond dip.\nWe roast the books’ “odd” virgin sex scenes, lack of real foreplay, and repetitive daddy-issues trauma, while praising the show’s slutty upgrades, addictive family dynamics, and Ariana Grande string-quartet bangers. We cover Penelope’s unnecessary book weight loss (thank you, Shonda, for keeping her hot), questionable Regency medical “exams,” why everyone still lives at home, and the upcoming queer twist with Michaela.\nAlso - is rake the sexiest word for man-slut? Why is Julie Andrews narrating spicy audiobooks? And is it accurate that the ton’s girls knew nothing about baby-making? Equal parts spicy critique, heartfelt love for the large-family vibes, and giggles...this episode is perfect for anyone who’s ever burned for a duke… or just wanted better historical medical accuracy in their smut.\nGrab your tea (spiked?) and let's be total rakes together. ","spotifyEmbedId":"4ihPCBmjLPbkMQVEbQDDpP","releaseDate":"April 14, 2026","duration":"41 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":39,"createdAt":"2026-04-14T13:19:01.107Z","updatedAt":"2026-04-14T13:19:01.107Z"},{"id":49,"title":"Vagina Obscura Book Club: Rebranding our Shame Lips","slug":"Vagina-Obscura-Book-Club-Rebranding-our-Shame-Lips","description":"We dive into Rachel E. Gross’s fascinating book Vagina Obscura: An Anatomical Voyage. We explore how little science and society still know about female anatomy, from the clitoris’s sole purpose of pleasure to outdated treatments like boric acid (basically rat poison), and the long history of treating women’s bodies as mysterious “shame parts.\"\nAlong the way, we talk serious business like the time one of us inserted a tampon in the wrong hole, questionable “sushi lover” t-shirts, and awkward euphemisms like “front butt” and “marital vegetables.\" We talk about the daddy of medicine, Hippocrates, naming lady parts without ever properly studying them, duck vaginas that evolved for reproductive control, the unsurprisingly recent start of dedicated women’s health research at the NIH, and why female pleasure has been so overlooked for centuries. We wrap up with a quick tangent on the recent Chappell Roan hotel drama involving Jude Law’s daughter (...it wasn’t even her security).\nGrab Vagina Obscura, laugh or cringe along with us, and remember: we don’t talk about vaginas enough, but we’re changing that...one quickie at a time.","spotifyEmbedId":"272ntkHg6zmkpMtuyxSGA5","releaseDate":"April 7, 2026","duration":"29 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":38,"createdAt":"2026-04-07T13:17:20.250Z","updatedAt":"2026-04-07T13:17:20.250Z"},{"id":48,"title":" Trash TV Prisoner's Dilemma: Why We Can’t Look Away from the Taylor Frankie Paul Train Wreck","slug":"Trash-TV-Prisoner-Dilemma-Taylor-Frankie-Paul-Train-Wreck ","description":"In this episode of Good Girls, we talk about the Bachelor franchise’s latest disaster: ABC casting (and then abruptly canceling) Taylor Frankie Paul as the new Bachelorette just three days before premiere after a disturbing 2023 domestic violence video resurfaced.\nWe discuss the full mess...Taylor’s chair-throwing incident, the allegations of reactive abuse on both sides, ABC’s questionable due diligence, and the massive waste of time, money, and crew energy on a fully filmed season that will never air.\nOn a lighter note, we confess our own guilty pleasures: bonding with our dads over The Bachelor, hot-mic fantasy suite sounds, 90 Day Fiancé unhinged energy, and which reality show we would have wanted to be cast on in our single days (one of us votes Amazing Race, the other would have gone full chaotic lesbian on the Bachelor). We debate whether we’re all complicit in platforming chaos for entertainment, the blurred lines of “good TV” versus real harm, soft swinging Mormon wives, and why the franchise’s fairy-tale branding feels more parody than ever.\nThis ep is equal parts popcorn-worthy gossip, nuanced discussions, and self-aware roasting of our own problematic viewing habits. Grab your wine (or pasta sauce bowl) and settle in with us...things get messy.","spotifyEmbedId":"1uTlOHotDw8KtaqPFVBjcN","releaseDate":"March 31, 2026","duration":"30 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":37,"createdAt":"2026-03-31T18:10:08.261Z","updatedAt":"2026-03-31T18:10:08.261Z"},{"id":47,"title":"Biblical Womanhood or Just Unhinged? Our Instagram Doomscroll Disaster","slug":"Biblical-Womanhood-or-Just-Unhinged-Our-Instagram-Doomscroll-Disaster","description":"We kicked off thinking we'd just lightly roast some overly polished Christian mom influencers, but oh boy, did the Instagram algorithm have other plans. We got stuck in a tradwife/biblical womanhood rabbit hole...SJ with a fresh fake profile starting from \"stay-at-home mommy\" searches, Kay with her own personal one tainted by years of smut and chaos, and surfaced with everything from homemade Cheez-Its superiority complexes to free birth horror stories, egg socks as fever cures, and Pearly Things casually dropping \"whore\" like it's punctuation. We unpack the weird one-sided \"touch your husband\" advice, the obsession with legacy-building through whimsical lunches, the anti-science vibes, and why we're so grateful we spent our 20s dating around, traveling, and making selfish choices instead of delivering babies in the woods. Grab a cocktail (or a tiki drink courtesy of a supportive husband), because this one's a wild ride through the shiny, scary side of mommy internet. Not the worst girls podcast, but definitely not trad.","spotifyEmbedId":"0EdejbHbPX7oINkxs32zcf","releaseDate":"March 24, 2026","duration":"39 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":36,"createdAt":"2026-03-26T18:13:19.963Z","updatedAt":"2026-03-26T18:13:19.963Z"},{"id":46,"title":"Let Women Read Their Fairy Porn in Peace","slug":"Let-Women-Read-Their-Fairy-Porn-in-Peace","description":"In this episode, we dive into the question: are we really living through a “smut renaissance”? After reading a recent New York Times article on the rise of romance, erotica, and romantasy by Amanda Hess, we wanted to push back on a few of its more negative assumptions.\nWe talk about how smut actually fits into women’s lives: whether it replaces sex, enhances relationships, or just provides a little escapist fun after a long day. Along the way we discuss the difference between romance, romantasy, and true erotica, the rise of audio erotica and discreet Kindle reading, and why the idea that women can’t distinguish fantasy from reality feels a little outdated.\nWe also get into some bigger questions about modern culture...declining sex statistics, realistic expectations for men, and the idea that romance novels might actually help women articulate what they want in relationships. Plus, we react to everything from BookTok trends and hockey romance to anti-porn religious wife TikTok and the strange ways smut keeps getting blamed for broader social anxieties.\nFinally, we wrap up with what we’re currently reading - from a delightful baseball romance (thank you Liz Tomforde for the delightful In Her Own League!) to a darker fantasy that has us questioning whether the male lead can possibly be redeemed (looking at you, Kane Ferron from Alchemized). \nIf you’ve wondered why people get so worked up about women reading romance, this episode is for you. Happy reading!","spotifyEmbedId":"7g9IXpRrqjhGuTkJCe1php","releaseDate":"March 17, 2026","duration":"39 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":35,"createdAt":"2026-03-17T12:22:41.369Z","updatedAt":"2026-03-17T12:22:41.369Z"},{"id":45,"title":"Door vs. Deviled Egg: A Sentient Object Romance Adventure","slug":"Door-vs-Deviled-Egg-Sentient-Object-Romance-Adventure","description":"Hey there, Good Girls! If the news cycle has you needing a serious brain break and even your usual romantasy escape feels too grounded in reality (looking at you, 500-year-old fairies hitting on 20-year-olds), we've got the perfect unhinged palate cleanser.\n\nThis week, we enter the gloriously weird world of sentient object romance...books where everyday inanimate objects gain sentience, romance humans, and things get steamy. From doors with seductive knobs to balloon animal shifters with knot-ty surprises, pillows that explode in feathers instead of mess, and even a deviled egg with herbal...hair, we've read (and mostly enjoyed) these short, quirky novellas.\n\nWe trace the genre's roots , going back to Ovid and a 1700s French author whose name Kay certainly mispronounced. We shout out prolific and amazing genre authors like Chuck Tingle and Vera Valentine, and ponder why this niche is exploding right now.\n\nWhether you're sentient-object curious, here for the giggles, or just need to laugh at how wild BookTok gets, grab your favorite (non-sentient) snack and join us.","spotifyEmbedId":"2djEBzZietM4g4AayzRa1c","releaseDate":"March 10, 2026","duration":"39 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":34,"createdAt":"2026-03-10T14:48:06.497Z","updatedAt":"2026-03-10T14:48:06.497Z"},{"id":44,"title":"We Debated If Men Are Salvageable and Landed on “Probably Not, Pass the Smut”","slug":"Debate-If-Men-Are-Salvageable","description":"Hey! This week we talk about the US men’s hockey locker room FaceTime disaster. You know the one: the president cracks a ‘joke’ about inviting the women’s team only if he’s impeached, everyone laughs along, and then most of the guys show up for the photo op anyway. We break down the fight/flight/flock response, and why we’re still talking about it days later...it’s not just this one thing—it’s the pattern.\n\nWe rate the skankiness level of everything man-ish from Prince Andrew’s Range Rover pic (still serving awkward cunt energy, but not the good kind) to performative male feminists, apolitical dudes, daddy influencers, and that Coldplay kiss cam CEO who got caught mid-embrace.\n\nWe then shift right over to how women aren't the most normal either...though less problematically so. We go from lighthearted Dramione fluff to dark, necromancy-filled Alchemized, voyeur-heavy Poison Daughter and Neon Gods (why is everyone watching?), sweet Ali Hazelwood escapism, and the absolute unhinged masterpiece Pushin’ Cushions—where a certain VP hopeful has a very intimate, demon-possessed encounter with a dirty couch. Women are so creative when we’re mad.\n\nWe wrap with airplane feet horror stories (keep them on the ground, please), a taxpayer-funded mile-high scandal we can’t unsee, and our ongoing quest to be good enough in this life for lesbian paradise next time.\n\nTrigger warnings for politics, dark fantasy, and sentient furniture erotica. Grab a drink, settle in, and join us for the mess.","spotifyEmbedId":"4yKcGi6cW7Sn2qD5krmkcn","releaseDate":"March 3, 2026","duration":"35 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":33,"createdAt":"2026-03-03T20:22:44.403Z","updatedAt":"2026-03-03T20:22:51.312Z"},{"id":43,"title":"Interview with Flight Attendant: From Mile High Club Realities to Airplane No-Nos","slug":"Interview-with-Flight Attendant-From-Mile-High-Club-Realities-to-Airplane-No-Nos","description":"Join us and special guest Lulu, a fabulous flight attendant with 10 years of sky-high stories, for the juiciest, grossest, and funniest tales from the friendly skies. From dentures on tray tables and sleep-jerking passengers to Mile High Club realities (spoiler: those bathrooms are a hard pass), wild layover dick appointments, and the real scoop on slutty pilots vs. crew hookups. Plus essential hacks: bring candy for the crew, always pack a pen, and never experiment with Ambien mid-flight. Listen up for laughs and yucks, because if you've flown, you've seen some things. Safe travels, good girls!","spotifyEmbedId":"78jTCr4GJyqhksPxfFHveu","releaseDate":"February 24, 2026","duration":"46 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":32,"createdAt":"2026-02-24T16:20:00.629Z","updatedAt":"2026-02-24T16:20:00.629Z"},{"id":41,"title":"Olympics After Dark: NSFW Since 776 BBC","slug":"Olympics-After-Dark-NSFW-Since-776-BBC","description":"Enjoy your Olympics viewing with our deep dive into why Olympians have always been... extra horny. From the original ancient Greek Games where men trained and competed buck-naked (gymnasium = \"place to exercise nude,\" obviously), complete with kynodesme strings to keep things \"tasteful\" (highly recommend looking this up), oiled-up wrestling, and all sorts of questionable activities, to today's Olympic Village traditions like emergency condom orders (20,000+ in Paris!), microchipped suits to prevent crotch-padding cheats (looking at you, Norwegian ski jumpers), and the great cardboard bed debate (RIP anti-sex myth, hello sturdy mattresses).\n\nWe talk Tony Perrottet's The Naked Olympics, salute epic post-baby comebacks from legends like Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce and Allyson Felix, debate the sexiest Winter sports husbands, and ponder the eternal question: if you had to compete in an alternate-universe Olympics against regular people, what sport would give you the best shot at a medal? (Curling and fencing are strong contenders for the athletically challenged.)\n\nGrab your olive oil (or condoms), settle in, and celebrate the Games' long tradition of athletic excellence... and equally impressive horniness. Happy Olympics, stay safe and enjoy the show!","spotifyEmbedId":"6R8vs6zefMAcuk9LLRksns","releaseDate":"February 17, 2026","duration":"43 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":31,"createdAt":"2026-02-17T20:27:05.504Z","updatedAt":"2026-02-17T20:27:05.504Z"},{"id":39,"title":"The Skankiest US Presidents: Ranking America's Most Problematic Horndogs","slug":"Skankiest-US Presidents-Ranking-Americas-Most-Problematic-Horndogs","description":"Happy Presidents' Day, Good Girls! In this special holiday episode, we cover the messy sex scandals of U.S. presidents who turned the Oval Office into their personal playground. We ranking the skankiest (reappropriating that word for problematic men) commanders-in-chief based on their extramarital exploits, power imbalances, and sheer audacity.\n\nFrom Warren G. Harding's cringe-worthy love letters signed by his penis \"Jerry,\" to LBJ whipping out \"Jumbo\" to explain foreign policy, JFK's legendary (and suspiciously short) quickies, Bill Clinton's saxophone seduction vibes, and the most problematic, Thomas Jefferson...we're not holding back. We debate who's the absolute top-tier problematic slut (spoiler: coat-closet sex and hush-money payoffs feature heavily), shout out the brave women who spoke up, and give honorable mentions to the non-problematic loyal ones (looking at you, John Adams and Barack).\n\nTrigger warning: Lots of abuse-of-power talk here, because \"slutty\" in this context usually means deeply unethical. Join us in celebrating....or something like that??...our nation's horniest historical figures. Bonus: We tie up loose ends from last episode's Aaron Rodgers/Gollum conspiracy corner. Presidents' Day weekend...maybe there's a reason it's associated with mattress super sales.","spotifyEmbedId":"3ZI4v7wty6SEkBwODkDtGx","releaseDate":"February 10, 2026","duration":"43 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":30,"createdAt":"2026-02-10T13:25:11.001Z","updatedAt":"2026-02-10T13:25:11.001Z"},{"id":36,"title":"Are We Dating the Same Guy Sites...Vigilante Vibes or Petty Post-Mortems?","slug":"Are-We-Dating-the-Same-Guy-Sites-Vigilante-Vibes-or-Petty-Post-Mortems","description":"We talk on \"Are We Dating the Same Guy?\" Facebook groups and apps. These sites are chaotic digital confessionals where women roast guys for everything from actual cheating to...not buying something on their Amazon wish-list?? From one-off drunk-cry dates that scream \"red flag\" (but aren't) to real cheaters like sneaky pilots and hospital hookups, we debate the line between sisterly sleuthing and shady gossip mills. Throw in nostalgic digs at the defunct Lulu app (RIP, manscaping roasts), Amazon wish-list hustles we somewhat respect, and foot-fetish bosses. It's a hilarious and horrifying ride through modern dating's privacy pitfalls. ...Yes, vet, but maybe skip the the Yelp review if there were no crimes committed beyond eating some of your food??","spotifyEmbedId":"2PY33VdkLjBtO1pP5xrjuA","releaseDate":"February 3, 2026","duration":"44 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":29,"createdAt":"2026-02-03T13:21:07.299Z","updatedAt":"2026-02-03T13:21:07.299Z"},{"id":35,"title":"Cave-Dwelling QBs & Comeback Kings: NFL Narratives, Fanfic Fire, and Celeb SIde-Eyes","slug":"NFL-Narratives-Fanfic-Fire-Celeb-Side-Eyes","description":"Join us on the Good Girls Podcast as we gear up for Super Bowl Sunday with zero shame, starting off with a dip into NFL FanFic - KissMyTightEnd, we see you there on AAO3! We match up NFL quarterbacks with pop culture characters...ranging from Gandalf to Mulan to Gollum (we will go ahead and give away, that's Aaron Rodgers). We then pivot to peak pop culture chaos in our new \"Am I the Asshole?\" segment: Is Brooklyn Beckham the ultimate nepo baby for nuking the Beckham brand over a wedding dance drama? Plus, unsealed texts spotlight Taylor Swift's wildcard role in the endless Justin Baldoni-Blake Lively saga. It's football flirting, fictional fantasies, and family feuds—because who needs stats when you've got spice...the poshest spice. Tune in for laughs, shade, and sleuthing and a fanfic read-aloud that's truly, truly unforgettable.","spotifyEmbedId":"0Ng0iBO5QtsAAQqtLxB0zt","releaseDate":"January 27, 2026","duration":"39 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":28,"createdAt":"2026-01-27T14:52:18.491Z","updatedAt":"2026-01-27T14:52:18.491Z"},{"id":33,"title":"Toxic Celebrity Mom Girl Gang...We Don't Think So","slug":"Toxic-Celebrity-Mom-Group","description":"In this week's episode of Good Girls, we talk about the conversations sparked by Ashley Tisdale's viral essay on The Cut about craving a \"mom village\" only to feel sidelined by a mom celeb group - think Hilary Duff, Mandy Moore, and Megan Trainor. We get it, that'd be our #1 mom group choice, too. But, we aren't too into the idea of letting yourself feel excluded by one, single closed mom group when there are so many different ways to meet other parents. We talk on accidental exclusion, the energy limits of parenting, and how we all have that experience of our husband sticking up for us at the wrong moment. We call out a bit of pettiness (shade thrown, but kindly), and talk on skipping the toxicity and building your own community. There's a sea of awesome moms out there waiting who have that same experience of taking a Zoom call with a baby on the hip (or elsewhere).","spotifyEmbedId":"0NwdgGreRsFKZJje3WQKLU","releaseDate":"January 20, 2026","duration":"38 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":27,"createdAt":"2026-01-20T13:24:29.405Z","updatedAt":"2026-01-20T13:24:29.405Z"},{"id":32,"title":"Heated Rivalry and Hockey Smut: Puck Yeah","slug":"Heated-Rivalry-and-Hockey-Smut-Puck-Yeah","description":"SJ and Kay kick off 2026 by diving headfirst into the steamy world of hockey romance, fresh off SJ's binge of HBO's Heated Rivalry - the Critics' Choice-nominated adaptation of Rachel Reid's queer M/M powerhouse. Honorary Hockey Mom Kay gives a hockey crash course (complete with a brutal quiz on shifts, sticks, and glove-dropping consent), SJ talks beautifully cast leads like Connor Sherry and Hudson Williams, and both do real-talk on why the show's rosy romance clashes with hockey's zero-out NHL reality. From heart-melting on-ice proposals to critiques of locker-room homophobia (shoutout to trailblazer Brock McGillis), the gals talk why straight women love gay sports smut, recommend must-reads like Mile High by Liz Tomforde and The Deal by Elle Kennedy, and ponder hotter adaptations for curvy heroines, throuples, and beyond-hockey vibes (hello, pickleball and rowing?). Plus, a nod to why all sports are low-key homoerotic. Grab your \"I Hope Both Teams Have Fun\" sweatshirt for 45 minutes of cognitively offloading in a terrible world.","spotifyEmbedId":"6Z1snEKHylezDdrghmfiyG","releaseDate":"January 13, 2026","duration":"44 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":26,"createdAt":"2026-01-13T12:44:05.782Z","updatedAt":"2026-01-13T12:44:05.782Z"},{"id":31,"title":"Smutty Book Clubs & Micro Quests: Our Anti-Shame New Year's Resolutions Vibe","slug":"Smutty-Book-Clubs-Micro-Quests-Our-Anti-Shame-New-Years-Resolutions","description":"Join us as we ring in 2026 with a fierce boycott on body-shaming resolutions, trading gym guilt for feel-good intentions like starting a romance-smut book club, embarking on quirky micro-adventures in our own city, and treating ourselves to fancy coffees and airport snacks without apology. We play a Family Feud-style game guessing America's top resolutions which Kay was shockingly bad at, dish on branching into new literary genres, and wrap up holiday drama with a takedown of shame-y Elf on the Shelf parenting and a fact-checked tale of sneaky separate-bed sleepovers. It's all about fun, fabulous goals that celebrate joy over judgment. Grab your little treats, light your possibly-overpriced candles, and hit play for a positive start to the year!","spotifyEmbedId":"5HnAJxc9Vy6Ih6Qmltr1Hu","releaseDate":"January 6, 2026","duration":"25 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":25,"createdAt":"2026-01-06T13:14:39.656Z","updatedAt":"2026-01-06T13:14:39.656Z"},{"id":29,"title":"Books, Bops and Brotherly Bromances: The Good Girls' 2025 Pop Culture Recap","slug":"Books, Bops-and-Brotherly-Bromances:-The-Good-Girls-2025-Pop-Culture-Recap","description":"In the chaotic glow of 2025's close, we reflect on pop culture that absolutely delivered in a year that aged us a decade: uncomfortable brotherly vibes in The White Lotus, steamy hockey romance in Heated Rivalry, and the ultimate female friendship glow-up in Wicked (shoutout to Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo's interlaced fingers). We talk 2025 book news like Onyx Storm and Rebecca Yarros's boundary-holding brilliance, debate fantasy's sneaky progressivism amid self-pub smuts and tropes galore. We bop to Taylor Swift's joyful era, Sabrina Carpenter's energy, and rising pop girlie Adela. We mostly keep it light with music recs for millennial moms, book hauls from Ali Hazelwood to Emily Henry, and a dystopian Love Island twist in The Compound. But...we do dip into the depressing (Epstein files, weird \"machine-gun lips\" mentions, and disturbing JD Vance AAO3 fanfic) with a side of Satanic '80s history. Wrapping with wishlist hilarity: athletic heroines, Issa Rae for prez, elderly Love Is Blind sex ed, and bipartisan blowjob scandals. It's silly, smutty, supportive, and the perfect cognitive offload for good girls surviving the void, cheers to 2026!","spotifyEmbedId":"04mDf1g9wZ4ys2J757wdQT","releaseDate":"December 30, 2025","duration":"50 min","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":24,"createdAt":"2025-12-31T14:14:50.964Z","updatedAt":"2025-12-31T14:14:50.964Z"},{"id":27,"title":"Ghosts of Christmas Past: A Holiday Roast of Past Exes","slug":"Ghosts-of-Christmas-Past-A-Holiday-Roast-of-Past-Exes","description":"In this festive installment of the Good Girls podcast, we dive into the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present, and Future through the lens of holiday hookups, awkward family stays, and libido-killing traditions. From thrill-seeking separate bedrooms at the in-laws to basement couches stained by teenage regrets, we talk emotionally unavailable exes, garlic-fueled redemption arcs, and the unreciprocated eagerness of youth. Fast-forward to present-day elf-on-the-shelf depravity ideas and future visions of nursing home tramp eras, all while sipping Irish coffee and pondering why Christmas stress tanks the sex drive. Perfect for anyone navigating in-law privacy (or lack thereof) this holiday season! Grab your headphones and laugh through the tinsel.","spotifyEmbedId":"0w7KGziN3k9eO9Z1EU1NhZ","releaseDate":"December 23, 2025","duration":"35 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"Happy Holidays from the good girls.\nWe are here today as good girls everywhere are preparing to travel home probably or to some in laws.\nSo we are here for you, hopefully in your air pods or headphones and not on speaker as we talk a little bit about mostly Kay's ghosts of Boyfriend, Christmas Past, present, Future.\n0:36\nYeah, wide.\n0:37\nSpeaker 2\nRanging.\n0:38\nSpeaker 1\nSo as we head home or wherever you're headed for the holidays, question for you, what if anything does getting busy with Mr. K look like when you are staying with the in laws or parents?\nAnd does that differ depending on where you're staying due to physical arrangements?\n0:57\nSpeaker 2\nLike the added thrill.\nI was kidding.\nSo in laws, you have to remember I'm like very open in laws towards this types of stuff.\nSo like if they're like, they're just like.\n1:10\nSpeaker 1\nBeing in the bedroom drawer of the guest room.\n1:13\nSpeaker 2\nLike, I didn't want to disturb you guys because I heard you guys talking a little bit.\nSo I thought, you know, maybe something was going to happen.\nSo I just gave you some time.\nThanks in law.\nI appreciate you.\nAt my house, my parents vacate their bedrooms so that Mister K and I can sleep there.\n1:33\nAnd so therefore, like there are a lot of different lines on lacrosse kind.\n1:38\nSpeaker 1\nOf sweet, but also awkward.\n1:39\nSpeaker 2\nNot having sex in my.\n1:41\nSpeaker 1\nParents bedroom.\nYeah, all right.\nI feel like at my in laws they are like in this giant old farmhouse.\nSo we actually have an entire wing of it to ourselves.\nThey are not sex positive, but I feel like they are also just so big on giving people their privacy that like, if we're dying in a hospital, they would not visit you.\n2:04\nAnd it's not 'cause they don't love you, it's because they want to give you your privacy so that you can die in peace.\nSo they definitely just like don't even come over.\nThere's a door between the two sides like the old part of the house and the addition onto the house where they have their bedroom and they don't ever open that door.\n2:21\nThey never come over.\nSo we have like an entire wing to ourselves.\nIt's just more that we're in kind of close quarters with our.\n2:29\nSpeaker 2\nKids in a sexy environment.\n2:30\nSpeaker 1\nIt's just not a sexy environment.\nThere are too many Victorian dolls around.\nI think the excitement of breaking the rules was a little bit more when we were not married and we were requested to sleep in two separate bedrooms.\nBut it was just really hilarious because we were on this separate wing of the house to ourselves.\n2:49\nAnd it's like an old farmhouse where, you know, it's just sort of like 4 rooms at the top of the stairs that are all interconnected to each other.\nSo there was like a door directly, even if they had been out in the hallway or had been able to hear, there was just like a door directly between the bedrooms.\n3:06\nAnd so it just seemed like such a weird symbolic gesture to make us sleep in our own private wing of the house, but in two separate beds.\n3:17\nSpeaker 2\nThat must have added some thrilled.\n3:19\nSpeaker 1\nI think that that did add some thrill, especially because Mr. SJ, the soon to be Mr. SJ at that time still felt very strongly about being like a good boy, and so he would very dutifully.\n3:33\nSpeaker 2\nSpeak back to.\n3:34\nSpeaker 1\nHis bed, he would like go to sleep, quote UN quote in his in his bed and again, like they're never going to come over here.\nThey value privacy above all else.\nSo he he like gets in there, you know, UN makes the bed a little bit and then he's over.\n3:51\nAnd then he would set an alarm for like 6:00 in the morning, 5:30 in the morning to move back to his bed.\nJust on some off chance that they came over to enforce, which I was also like, you're an adult.\nWhat are what are they going to do?\n4:07\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, so that's the noise of the ghosts of Christmas past, Yes.\n4:13\nSpeaker 1\nGreat segue.\n4:14\nSpeaker 2\nSo the ghosts of Christmas past has come to me and they've taken me back 10 years past to when a boyfriend came to my house over Christmas.\nAnd yes indeed we were staying in completely different bedrooms.\n4:31\nAnd that was a thrill because the different bedrooms and then not being allowed to very, very different than being totally allowed on your parents bedroom and being accepted instead when you're in different.\n4:41\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, then it's like completely boring because you can just.\n4:44\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, that's like, oh, my parents are gone.\nYes.\nAnd that was a thrill.\n4:49\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, yeah.\nAnd Mr. Eshay also introduced me to the basement in his parents house where he used to hook up with his girlfriends in high school.\nAnd he's like, we can totally make out down here because the basement stairs are really creepy.\n5:07\nCreepy, not creepy.\nThen the whole house is a little creepy, but the basement stairs are really creaky.\nSo if anyone's coming down, you would have enough notice to break it up.\nBut it's just like the whole vibe was OK.\nFirst of all, this is like the couch where you hooked up with your high school girlfriends.\n5:22\nLike I, I don't know, I, I want to, I want a little bit of, I want to leave a little bit of dignity for the high school girlfriends and leave their couch intact.\nAnd also, it was like the kind of couch that you put in an old unfinished basement that was like from the 1970s.\nAnd I was like, my pants are staying on in contact with this upholstery.\n5:43\nSpeaker 2\nThat's so funny because there are things that like when you're in high school, you're like, this is so cool.\nWe found this area by ourselves.\nLike I remember we had the least attractive basement couch.\nGoing farther back with my ghost of Christmas past.\n6:00\nI do remember like my first big hookup was on that couch and Oh my gosh like I am a frowning on one past K.\nIt was very, very much so like A1 sided hookup and we're like immediately once the guy was done, it was like, OK, we are done now.\n6:20\nSpeaker 1\nI got when I came.\n6:21\nSpeaker 2\nHappened here yes he was like this is a refractory period where I'm no longer interested in anything so like including yes go back to awesome movie and I was like huh OK so this is a hookup huh I'm.\n6:34\nSpeaker 1\nLike that's what it feels like to be you.\n6:37\nSpeaker 2\nI don't do that so much.\nI was like a little dad, like I don't, I don't even think there was like any effort to like turn me out or anything.\nSo like, you know, I just imagine my ghost being like, where was your pride?\n6:53\nAnd I can tell you that like over the next 10 years, I continued to do similar things.\n7:00\nSpeaker 1\nTook the narrator.\nIt took several more years before she would pick up all the pattern of emotionally unavailable men.\n7:09\nSpeaker 2\nI don't even remember even even after college, and I know that this was during Christmas time, so it is remaining with the theme.\nI continued with guys with clear lack of emotional availability.\nThe one guy did call me and this is so sweet, it's so cute.\n7:28\nAnna from Frozen because I always wanted to go build a snowman.\nThat's what the term they could use for how excited I was to like engage in sexual activities and all that.\nAnd even that one, like I was, oh, I thought, never much giving.\n7:42\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, Also, I was like snowman.\nI didn't know if that was some kind of like dirty snowball like sex thing reference when he was like, do you want to build a snowman?\nI was picturing something nasty.\n7:52\nSpeaker 2\nIt was more of my.\nIt was more than.\n7:53\nSpeaker 1\nOne side of emotional connection.\n7:55\nSpeaker 2\nInnocent eagerness to please a man who was very clearly not committing himself to me.\n8:01\nSpeaker 1\nYeah.\n8:02\nSpeaker 2\nI ended up walking in on him on a date with another girl and I was like huh, who's the loser here because I think it's me.\n8:08\nSpeaker 1\nYeah.\n8:09\nSpeaker 2\nI people give you every signal that they're not there.\n8:11\nSpeaker 1\nIt's like, I do honestly feel like I know so many girls who turned into awesome, confident women that went through this period.\nAnd then we look back at the the boys that we were attracted to and it's just like, why were we trying so hard to like attract these just like do fussy guys with their little icicles, tinted tips, frosted tips, haircut thing?\n8:34\nAnd why were we working so hard for their affection?\nAnd they just did not deserve it whatsoever.\nSo I similarly, I feel like I spent a lot of more Christmases just sort of pining from afar for guys that totally socked her.\nLike one time I was dating a guy and kind of casually and in high school and he was just like, Oh well, I just feel like we're going to be going off to college soon and we just like shouldn't get into anything.\n9:04\nAnd he's like, I have like had a lot of trauma in my life and I just think that I'm not like.\n9:07\nSpeaker 2\nTrauma.\nHe's going to bring up his trauma.\nI mean, what, what type of trauma is his purse?\nOK, never mind.\nOh yeah.\n9:13\nSpeaker 1\nHe did.\nHe did have like legitimate he had mommy issues that were legitimate but it was all like oh he's not emotionally available for a relationship and I'm sure he didn't even have it was the early 2000s.\nLike we did not have access to this kind of therapist speak to throw around casually in our dating conversations but basically like indicated he was not able to be in a relationship.\n9:34\nTurned out it was just because he liked one of my friends and wanted to ask her out, but unfortunately for him.\n9:40\nSpeaker 2\nHe can't use his trauma in that way.\n9:42\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, well, unfortunately for him, she was a born again Christian.\nLike very intense.\nAnd she told him that she didn't date refer back to our because dating goodbye episode because she was waiting to meet her husband.\n9:55\nSpeaker 2\nWhich and court her though?\n9:58\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, he did not know how to do that because he was not a born again Christian.\nSo he was obviously not a candidate to be her husband.\nAnd she said that she wasn't dating then, she was only looking to meet her husband.\nI will say that she made good on that and met a guy like a month later at church camp or something.\n10:16\nI think.\nSo she defriended me on Facebook because I think was going through like one of those.\nYou have to like purge out all of your friends who are like influences.\n10:22\nSpeaker 2\nI really, that's like one of my favorite things is when somebody unfriends me and like the next day they post something like I unfriended anybody who if I saw at a bar, I would literally have no curiosity about how their life is doing.\n10:37\nSpeaker 1\nAnd then I was like.\n10:37\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, I don't have curiosity.\n10:38\nSpeaker 1\nI stayed friends with you because I had a lot of morbid curiosity about your life as somebody who got married at 18 and then had five kids and is like a trad wife.\nBut yeah, she, she wasn't interested in satisfying my morbid curiosity, so she defriended me.\n10:57\nBut as far as I can tell, I don't.\nYeah, I don't know.\nI didn't stay in touch, but probably.\nI feel like they tend to mate for life.\nUnless the husband, like, turns out to be a serial killer and kills you or something.\nThat's really the only out.\n11:10\nSpeaker 2\nSo what could have been the redemption arc both for the guy in question and for myself, is that there is this guy in my early 20s who we had a hookup relationship.\nAnd I then I hadn't seen him for maybe a year or so.\nAnd then it was a Santa bar crawl and it was in my neighborhood.\n11:29\nSo he messaged me and he was sitting there like dressed in a Santa suit.\nAnd is this other sexy?\n11:35\nSpeaker 1\nSanta Fantasy, Okay.\n11:37\nSpeaker 2\nIt is not I'll explain.\nSo I was so excited to see this like friend from my past again.\nLike if you know me, you know that I actually speak of like any acts no matter the situation.\nLike, oh, they were a friend, like pretty fondly, even if things didn't work out, even if they were assholes.\n11:52\nSo in this particular guy's case, the issue was that I was so excited to see him again and, you know, catch up on his life that I went and got some hummus for us.\nAnd I don't know how much garlic was in this hummus, but all I know is that all I could smell was like the garlic just like emanating from him with that.\n12:08\nAnd he looked at me like was the garlic that I had given him.\nHe did not smell like this to start with.\nAnd he was like, I was thinking back to like all the times that we hooked up.\nAnd I really feel like I never was like equal to like I never, I never gave in the same way that you did.\nAnd I want to give like, I want to go upstairs and like make that up to you.\n12:26\nI want to like, you know, go down you for a long time.\nAnd I was like, I, I can't, I would think of garlic.\nI think I might even been seeing somebody.\n12:35\nSpeaker 1\nI feel like I'm not ready to be your bowl of hummus.\nYou can't.\n12:37\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, I hummus tonight.\nI was, I think that it's like the hummus was like set from above to like stop me from getting back into the situation.\nIt was like, here I am and I have too much garlic in me.\n12:49\nSpeaker 1\nOK does not.\nI can't ghost a Christmas pass, but she does get the Christmas hummus experience with their garlic wafting the.\n12:58\nSpeaker 2\nClearest memory of like the hummus, the Santa Claus suit, like the lighting in like that part of the house that I was living at the time and just me being like.\n13:06\nSpeaker 1\nOh gosh, I would have wanted this.\n13:08\nSpeaker 2\nSo badly like 6 months ago but not now.\nSomething that I do think the ghost would bring me back to just to rub it in my face that I did this and accepted this, is that I specifically remember being with a guy for a while who when I was like, hey, like you seem to never reciprocate.\n13:24\nIt's like, well, you have to understand, like I'm a scientist who looks at germs and like it's something about putting your face like fully in there that just seems really germy.\nAnd so and.\n13:34\nSpeaker 1\nHe's like, but my jizz is so clear you like to swallow it.\n13:37\nSpeaker 2\nAnd it's, he's like, it feels different.\nIt feels like it must be different for like, you know, the woman and the woman's and because they're more like around something that's sticking out.\nSo you're not putting in like your face in there.\nAnd I was like, I don't, I don't know if I feel just spraying out of it.\nYeah.\n13:52\nSpeaker 1\nMaybe you had read the research about the medicinal qualities of semen and he was like, I'm gifting you with my antimicrobial.\n14:01\nSpeaker 2\nI I want my like an update from like him and his current wife, Like so did he ever change that or does he still does not do anything?\nAnd just to be clear, like he also wasn't doing like anything with his hands.\nLike nothing was happening.\nYeah, yeah.\nAttractive and had other good things going for him, just not I'm.\n14:18\nSpeaker 1\nSure that he found somebody who is willing to accept him.\nI just feel like the number of times that I've heard about women saying that, you know, they're like, Oh, well, he's just not really into, like, that's not his thing.\nHe's not into going down on women.\n14:34\nYou know, we just don't do that.\nI don't know.\nI think that there are sort of like, you know, when we talk about like people who just like didn't have an orgasm until they were 50 or something, you just kind of, if you're taught that that's the norm and what you deserve, then I'm sure he found somebody who was willing to be OK with that.\n14:51\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, and I think The thing is I'm just I, I say this enough of like our other episodes.\nAnd I think that The thing is to me, it's like, it's not like the surface when are like, oh gosh, like shoving that appendage down my throat is going to feel so good.\n15:06\nIt's going to be so awesome.\nLike it's something I crave.\nIt's like, no, obviously we don't.\nIt's more the idea like what?\nWhat like word like the pleasure and enjoyment comes from is that like you're doing something for your.\n15:17\nSpeaker 1\nPartner and there's a lot of research I know about the link between sexual interest and disgust that they're it's not like 2 separate ends of the spectrum.\nThere's kind of like they loop back around and crossover and and then it's just like very situational and like kind of like where how turned on you are and what you feel like the environment is.\n15:37\nIf it's an environment that you can feel turned on by that things that would like disgust you, like having the thing that somebody pees with that's like all sweaty from being in their boxers all day, being jammed down your throat in like a lot of situations.\nLike I feel like if you were just like.\n15:53\nSpeaker 2\nPunched in the box or?\n15:54\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, if you were like eat ice cream with a spoon, that's like been down the front of these guys boxers all day and you would just be like, that's disgusting.\nBut then, you know, if you're in the moment, people can get into things that are way nastier than sticking a Dick down their throat in terms of just like objectively that you would not do.\n16:12\nSo I guess it's just kind of he needed to read the research about.\n16:16\nSpeaker 2\nYou're not into building showers.\n16:18\nSpeaker 1\nNot that I've ever, and I can't say because I feel like maybe I just haven't experienced the right golden shower, but maybe this is.\n16:26\nSpeaker 2\nI am curious about that because.\n16:27\nSpeaker 1\nI I feel like a dirty 12 days of Christmas with five golden showers.\n16:33\nSpeaker 2\nI think I saw it in a book somewhere.\nWas like, awesome.\nI had this craving to like pee on him and I was like, huh, I don't think I've ever had that.\n16:41\nSpeaker 1\nAlso I just feel like it's hard to pee when you're aroused for men or women.\n16:47\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, it's nothing I've ever had a desire to do.\nWhat I will say, and this is like off topic, I'm just adding this in here, is that I do like it when I have a full bladder during sex because it just adds like more pressure and everything, but it's I but I don't.\n17:02\nSpeaker 1\nWant to know that or thought about that?\nI'm always like I got to go pee before I start any activity is just my.\n17:07\nSpeaker 2\nLife, I need to pee.\nThis will be a good time.\n17:11\nSpeaker 1\nYou're like this will just hurry things up.\n17:13\nSpeaker 2\nThis is going to feel great.\n17:15\nSpeaker 1\nNo interest.\nI really feel like that guy might have found happiness if he found a quinthruple that he quinthruple that he could be part of like the tangled and tinsel book.\nBecause in that book the men really kind of like had roles that they mostly stuck to.\nAnd so like, for example, he could be the guy who just sits in the corner jacking off and saying encouraging things while the other guy gets all the germs of going down on the woman.\n17:40\nLike maybe I like to think in the happiest future of where this acts of yours ended up is that he is just part of a like happy.\n17:50\nSpeaker 2\nLittle Queen, I love that top of him again.\nI I I only think fondly of all.\n17:54\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, that he's just like found a nice little niche for himself where he just like jacks off in a corner and doesn't have to touch, and he doesn't have to touch any of her body parts and get any of her bacteria.\nHe's just in the corner jacking it.\n18:08\nSpeaker 2\nSo I guess one more again.\nI'd feel bad for my ghost of Christmas past.\nHe's like, here I am having to travel again to yet another event.\n18:18\nSpeaker 1\nHe's a busy guy, I.\n18:20\nSpeaker 2\nDid one time, like immediately after Christmas at my own house, fly to New York City to visit a guy who I've been kind of seen on and off at that time.\nAnd we were on and on time and we had this kind of like wonderful last hurrah with each other where we went to the Rockefeller tree, we went to Rob's.\n18:38\nWe just like all this like cheesy Christmassy stuff with each other and here's like The funny thing is it was a really great time.\nThe the next like the morning, that was time for me to go back to the airport and remember like I had flown there, like done all that.\n18:53\nHe was one who encouraged it, was very happy to have me there.\nHe had nothing to do that entire day.\nAnd he's like, oh, you don't mind taking an Uber to the airport, Do you?\nLike driving to, you know, JFK is really exhausting.\nAnd I was like.\n19:08\nSpeaker 1\nAfter all the work I just put in, yeah.\n19:10\nSpeaker 2\nI was like, I packed a little sexy outfit for you and everything.\nI feel like you.\n19:15\nSpeaker 1\nHad the least I get for my trouble.\n19:17\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, it's a drive to the airport and not an Uber by myself.\nAnd so I was like, you know what?\n19:23\nSpeaker 1\nAnd I'll take that Uber.\n19:25\nSpeaker 2\nAnd then I think like a week.\nOh, yeah, actually, Oh my gosh.\nOh, very close timeline.\nBut I think actually New Year's Eve, I went on my second date with Mr. K and then.\n19:34\nSpeaker 1\nAnd then the rest is.\n19:35\nSpeaker 2\nHistory, yeah.\nSo thank you for not driving me to.\n19:38\nSpeaker 1\nAnd then I bet Mr. K drives you to the airport whenever you want.\n19:41\nSpeaker 2\nOh my gosh, yeah. 4:00 AM.\nHow could I ever make you take an Uber?\nI'll wake up all the kids.\nSo the word is driving the car so you don't have to do an Uber.\n19:48\nSpeaker 1\nMr. K.\n19:49\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, so again, for the best.\nThank you, New York City guy.\nAgain, another person, only fondness.\n19:55\nSpeaker 1\nWell, I do have a story where I was the asshole to a guy around the holidays and showed 0 interest and I don't know or just like stranger danger.\n20:11\nI mean he wasn't like a total stranger.\nSo I was this was when I was studying abroad in South America and it was so it was like towards the holidays because it was the end.\nI was going to be leaving soon and I had like.\nHooked up with this guy once or twice, I would not have by any stretch of the imagination said that we were dating.\n20:30\nBut I think it's also just like a cultural difference down there that we like, we were just sort of part of the same group of friends.\nAnd so we like showed up at a show that somebody was playing at and he started introducing people, me to people as his girlfriend.\nAnd I was like, what the fuck?\nLike, does Novia mean something else down here?\n20:48\nBecause we've just like hooked up twice.\nIt was very uncomfortable, I know, but he was like, so he was listening.\n20:53\nSpeaker 2\nThis guy.\n20:54\nSpeaker 1\nBut in like kind of like an uncomfortable, intense way.\nAnd so then some people were going, they have this little town, this is Argentina.\nSo is this cute little like Disney fied like German themed town, which I later put two and two together that that's where all the like Nazis that moved to Argentina probably made this town, but it was like German themed and they have like Oktoberfest and a chocolate festival.\n21:18\nSo we went to this little German themed town and they have like buses that run there all day.\nAnd then there's all the parties, food stands, and then you can take buses back that night.\nAnd somehow we ended up just kind of like losing the rest of the friend group, like making out by the side of a building or something.\n21:33\nAnd then we like, lost the rest of our friends.\nAnd at first I was just like, oh, we'll kind of keep walking around.\nBut then it kind of got to the point where we realized that we had like missed the last bus that went home that night and.\n21:47\nSpeaker 2\nSo this is romantic.\n21:48\nSpeaker 1\nI know.\nSo this is a guy that was my Tokyo and this is the kind of shit that if life were a romance novel, it would be this like forced proximity.\nAnd then because he is like, let's go try to find a hotel.\nAnd then if we had that, the hotel would have been like, oh, we have somebody available that.\n22:07\nSpeaker 2\nOr like a room within one twin bed.\nYeah, exactly.\n22:09\nSpeaker 1\nAnd you know, heart-shaped tub in it, but I was just like, especially because I was in like not my home country and just a weird.\nI was just like, no, we're not going to go find a hotel.\nI was like, let's just like kind of hang out until the like first bus at 5:00 AM leaves or whatever.\n22:27\nSo then it turned into like the worst night because we were just like walking around and I think it got kind of cold.\nAnd we just like went to the bus station and there were like all these drunk people there that had like stayed through the whole night.\nSo there was only like room to sit in the aisle on the bus.\n22:43\nWe didn't even get a seat on the bus.\nAnd I was just like, you could tell that he was like, what the fuck?\nLike my Novia and I had the opportunity to have this awesome little, you know, meet cute romance story in the in the honeymoon suite in this little German Nazi village.\n23:00\nAnd instead we were just like sitting at the bus stop as this at the bus depot as the sun rose.\nAnd so he was just like seemed kind of irritated.\nAnd after that I was just like, this shit's getting too weird.\nAnd I ghosted him after that.\n23:15\nSpeaker 2\nVery, very mature.\n23:16\nSpeaker 1\nWas super awkward because as previously stated, we were part of the same group of friends.\n23:21\nSpeaker 2\nI just feel like if I were a boy, like I would be that guy.\nI feel like you are my Novia.\n23:28\nSpeaker 1\nI know he was just like, what should we name our children?\nAnd I was like, I'm going to move to a different country to get away from you.\nIt's like.\n23:37\nSpeaker 2\nAny person who I date for like 1 day I'm like what is our wedding going to look like?\nI.\n23:41\nSpeaker 1\nFeel like that's The funny thing is I was usually kind of the other way, have a guy show interest in me for like 30 seconds and I'm like, Oh well, I just don't know if we got married, if we were like whose parents we would go to visit for the holidays in my head obviously like not saying it to them.\n23:57\nAnd then somehow I met this guy who was like, oh, me Novia.\nAnd I was like, all right, Like what's wrong with?\n24:04\nSpeaker 2\nYou, our now our ghost is taking us to the present.\n24:09\nSpeaker 1\nWhile we record our world famous podcast Drinking Irish coffee.\n24:14\nSpeaker 2\nThe presents.\n24:14\nSpeaker 1\nLooking in our recording.\n24:17\nSpeaker 2\nThe presents not bad while.\n24:19\nSpeaker 1\nMr. SJ watches our preschooler downstairs because he got sent home from school with mom of the year.\n24:27\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, I think are this, is this the statistic that Christmas stress is happening and my libido is down?\nIs it actually happening to me?\nI think it actually is, but I don't even know why.\nLike I'm not stressed about anything in particular, maybe just trying to finish up everything before the holidays.\n24:46\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, I feel like there is just that we've talked about the environmental factors and that just if you are physically tired, your libido is going to be down and if you're doing 90 extra tasks, even if you are mentally.\n24:57\nSpeaker 2\nThere could be doing more tasks.\nI'm like, my kids will like these three gifts for Christmas.\n25:02\nSpeaker 1\nWe could all be doing more tasks.\nAnd I don't feel like there's any upside, especially for those of us who were like children of the 80s, nineties.\nI don't know.\nYou like look back and I feel like our moms were all just like out on the they were like, even if my, you know, even if they were staying at home, they still didn't do as much stuff with their kids and they were just like out on the porch drinking wine coolers and like put some Cartoon Network on for you.\n25:24\nSpeaker 2\nAnd you've made like 5F and gingerbread houses.\nI'm like enough with the gingerbread houses.\nI like arts and crafts projects like I enjoy making them, but I'm like.\n25:32\nSpeaker 1\nAnother one, yeah, we introduced the Elf on the Shelf this year because we got one last year.\nBlessings to the person who purchased that for us.\nAnd I was like, all right, I'm gonna set expectations early.\nWe didn't read the book.\nWe just have the elf and I.\n25:49\nAlso, the elf is not a member of the Santa Panopticon, you know, narking on bad behavior.\nThe elf is just a fun little visitor who hangs out in our house and also does not do anything cool.\nIt just literally moves locations.\n26:02\nSpeaker 2\nHe's like, you would love doing all these things when I showed him on like Pinterest.\n26:06\nSpeaker 1\nWhat do you do and?\n26:07\nSpeaker 2\nI'm like, yeah, but it'd be one more thing that I have to do at night and I wouldn't be able to just move it.\nI'd be like oh must have sprinkles coming from his butt.\n26:16\nSpeaker 1\nI know I'm just like, I have the combination of being like an aspirational craft mom but also being very tired and having ADHD.\nAnd so I have like much higher aspiration.\nSo I was briefly like, Oh yeah, I could have sprinkles coming out of its butt.\nAnd then after like the second day, I have my alarm set at 9:00 PM to move the elf somewhere.\n26:35\nAnd I was just like in the bath, drinking wine.\nMr. SJ, text message, like, please go put the elf somewhere else.\nMove up two.\n26:43\nSpeaker 2\nFeet.\n26:43\nSpeaker 1\nAnd now that's basically because he's always up early in the morning too, so I don't even text him anymore.\nHe just picks up the elf and moves it.\nAnd that is literally all the elf does.\nAnd our daughter is old enough that she knows the elf lore and so and they have one in her classroom at school and she's like but mommy I thought that the elves were supposed to get up to mischief because the elf in my teachers class just like had a snowball fight with mini marshmallows and blah blah blah.\n27:09\nWhich I'm like that teacher and all her holiday cheer and energy to do Nice.\n27:16\nSpeaker 2\nThings for kids, but.\n27:18\nSpeaker 1\nI was just like, she is still gullible, my daughter is still gullible and not that I was just like, well, not.\nOur elf is named Layla for some reason.\nThen like Derek Clapton says, I was just like, not Layla.\nI was like, Layla is just like a really relaxed elf and just like she just likes to move around to different parts of the house to hang out with us.\n27:36\nAnd then that was accepted.\nI was thinking, however, for your Ghost of Christmas present when we were talking about Elf on the Shelf.\nThis is an opportunity to maybe, if Mr. K wants to get an Elf on the Shelf, that this could really be more of something for the two of you and that you could partake in the trend of people taking elves on the shelf and putting them in adult positions.\n28:05\nSpeaker 2\nGo for fun.\n28:06\nSpeaker 1\nYes, well, hopefully not for their children.\nI really hope.\n28:11\nSpeaker 2\nIt's just making my husband giggle every day.\n28:13\nSpeaker 1\nI do, or, you know, I'm actually now just brainstorming the idea of a holiday Elf on the Shelf advent calendar for Mr. K, which I know he would love based on the fact that he sent the dad's group chat the boob titties of the month.\nAdvent calendar Boob, Miss?\n28:30\nYeah, I think that you could make him a little Elf on the Shelf advent calendar where every day the Elf on the Shelf is doing a different depraved action and then that is a preview of what is coming that night.\nOr what you just read in your Christmas smut is you set up a little preview every day in your room of the Elf on the Shelf Christmas.\n28:52\nSpeaker 2\nOh my gosh, then we would need a lot of elves.\n28:57\nSpeaker 1\nI'm thinking at least 5 so that we could stage the scenes from Tangled and Tinsel.\n29:02\nSpeaker 2\nOh my gosh, things got weird this month when I.\n29:06\nSpeaker 1\nSo just brainstorming off the top of your head, what would be your first ELF setup if you were making a good girls slutty elf on the Shelf Christmas advent calendar?\n29:18\nSpeaker 2\nOh my gosh, I don't know, maybe I would do gifted to dad just to creep him out.\n29:24\nSpeaker 1\nGet like one of those rock and Santas.\nYou know those rock and Santas that used to be popular in like the 90s that would like jiggle around and sing songs.\nYou gotta get like one of those Santas and the Elf on the Shelf and a candy cane.\n29:37\nSpeaker 2\nOh, Oh my gosh, yeah, definitely.\nYou know the the the Santa taking a candy cane up.\n29:45\nSpeaker 1\nOh.\n29:46\nSpeaker 2\nMy gosh, are you a depraved month?\nMaybe.\nMaybe that's why I feel like my libido is relatively low.\nI'm not like reading like the dirtiest stuff every single.\n29:54\nSpeaker 1\nDay yeah honestly, some of the stuff that we read for the holiday smut episode, it was just like so over the top and I was reading so much of it just to like get through all the books that I wanted to read before that episode that my brain just rotted and and like.\n30:08\nSpeaker 2\nThat's I'm back to reading like normal fantasy now.\nThat's like, it was just like percent fantasy with 20% romance.\n30:13\nSpeaker 1\nDipping in a.\n30:13\nSpeaker 2\nFool's lie.\nYeah.\nAnd like now like Mr. K's all confused because he's like for the last month whenever you've read you've you've had pointed things and I'm like, no, now I'm literally just reading about like a world that has different things and there's not all of a sudden like 3 guys who want one girl and have a candy.\n30:28\nSpeaker 1\nHe's like what kind of literature he has.\n30:30\nSpeaker 2\nGo back to the other.\n30:31\nSpeaker 1\nTrash.\n30:33\nSpeaker 2\nSo, zooming forward to our Ghosts of Christmas future, I imagine myself at a nursing home being the bell of the ball.\n30:44\nSpeaker 1\nBloodiest bitch that ever walked in those automatic doors.\n30:48\nSpeaker 2\nWheeling myself over to like, you know, Tom with like one leg and.\n30:54\nSpeaker 1\nI mean that scene sounds like it is bumping because I I checked the research on this.\nI had heard anecdotally about the rise of STI is among the elderly and found a nice little article via NIH that was about the concerns.\n31:14\nBecause this is a underserved population.\nBecause most sexual education services and sexual health services are aimed at younger.\n31:22\nSpeaker 2\nPeople I will help with their preventive health towards.\n31:27\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, exactly.\nSo I think that you have an opportunity not only to be the sluttiest old lady in the nursing home, but also.\n31:35\nSpeaker 2\nHighly knowledgeable to be highly.\n31:36\nSpeaker 1\nKnowledgeable to be sex positive according to their research, a lot of the issues that they had to overcome were also that it is generations that tend to be less open about talking about sexual health and they didn't have.\n31:50\nSpeaker 2\nThe opportunity.\n31:51\nSpeaker 1\nTo put a condom on a banana in health class.\nNot that those of us who lived in the Bible Belt did either, but or Catholic school, but you know, theoretically we did have a slightly more sex positive upbringing, which is kind of sad to.\n32:03\nSpeaker 2\nThink about granny smut.\n32:06\nSpeaker 1\nGranny smut for sure.\nAnd yeah, and just, like, have a little pouch on the front of your Walker that's just, like, full of condoms and you just, like, hang them out, hand them out.\nHoliday flavored Lube.\nExactly.\n32:20\nSpeaker 2\nSome gingerbread flavored.\n32:22\nSpeaker 1\nStuff OK, well, I, I love this future for us or just I, I kind of pictured myself being in some kind of like Golden Girls type of existence of just owning a really nice house with my sisters or my friends.\nI just kind of assume that we'll be, you know, the women in my family live to be 100 on the regular and unfortunately.\n32:45\nSpeaker 2\nI'm very likely to die much before my husband.\nBut on the positive side, then like, you know, he has to take care of me in my old age versus me to care.\n32:54\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, exactly.\nWomen's liberation, am I right?\n32:58\nSpeaker 2\nYeah, so me wiping my tushy bushy.\n33:02\nSpeaker 1\nWell then hopefully that gives him his slut era where he can be in a nursing home because you know the men are highly.\nI just feel like they're a hot commodity because the men do tend to die younger.\nSo I have heard that if you are like a able bodied man, and now thanks to the wonders of male enhancement drugs you, there needs to be no time limit on your slut era.\n33:25\nSpeaker 2\nSo grandpa's like 100 and like well dressed and completely, you know, not he looks like he's 100.\n33:31\nSpeaker 1\nIs he in his slut era?\n33:32\nSpeaker 2\nOh my gosh the ladies are like you know your grandpa dress is really nice.\nAll the women notice he's got 2 legs that walk.\n33:41\nSpeaker 1\nOK, you know he is cleaning us.\n33:45\nSpeaker 2\nI do definitely feel like in my Ghost of Christmas future, my kids will be in their 30s and like finding this podcast and being like, what on earth, mom?\n33:55\nSpeaker 1\nI don't feel like post this.\nCan we post this to all of the publicly available podcast with like a built in like time bomb that the file just like self destructs and like.\n34:05\nSpeaker 2\nAs soon as our kids reach an age that they might eventually like, notice just like bomb.\n34:10\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, exactly.\nIt just has like certain self destruct sequences that program your kids phone so that if it ever accesses their mom's podcast, then the whole podcast just self destruct.\n34:21\nSpeaker 2\nAccess yeah.\nOr like, yeah, like some kid come after my son being like, hey, like heard your mom does this because she told me on her podcast.\n34:30\nSpeaker 1\nWell, I mean, we can just go to Clover Baltimore for advice because she is somehow navigating the realities, at least according to her porn videos, of being both a mom and Baltimore's preeminent porn star.\nAnd Clover.\n34:45\nSpeaker 2\nHaving it.\n34:46\nSpeaker 1\nAll So yeah, Clover, give us a call talking about how you navigate this with your son, who might be a teenager, and Kyle Balls, who is frequenting your house to.\n34:56\nSpeaker 2\nKyle Balls.\n34:57\nSpeaker 1\nYeah, and somehow his friend is never there, but Clippers always home so.\n35:02\nSpeaker 2\nHess Well, I hope everybody has a happy holidays.\nThank you for listening.\n35:08\nSpeaker 1\nLeave us a little gift in the reviews with a little a little yeah stop her stocking with a little five star review the.\n35:15\nSpeaker 2\nFollow.\nThank you so much.\nWe appreciate you all.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":23,"createdAt":"2025-12-23T16:26:32.656Z","updatedAt":"2025-12-23T16:26:32.656Z"},{"id":26,"title":"Ho Ho Oh No: Christmas Romance Reads, from Unhinged to Cozy","slug":"Christmas-Romance-Reads","description":"In a delightfully raunchy holiday episode of the Good Girls podcast, we dive into Christmas romance books, ranging from the delightfully cozy to the bizarre and questionable yet somehow also sexy. We sacrificed our sanity a little to read it all, ranging from the unsanitized candy cane insertion courtesy of a creepy mall Santa in Stuffed with Cole to the beastly bestiality vibes of Sir Krampus. We kick things off with somewhat horrifying Smutmas \"would you rather\" dilemmas (paddled by a horny Krampus or violated by a textured peppermint stick?). We choose our worst three and best three. We wrap things up with awards for the most audacious holiday props and candid chats on breeding kinks, reverse harems, and plus-size representation.\nBooks covered include:\n\nUnwrap Me by Natalia Lourouse\n\nTangled & Tinsel by Trilina Pucci\n\nA Merry Little Meet Cute by Julie Murphy & Sierra Simone\n\nSir Krampus by D. Rayle\n\nBought By Santa by N. Lybaek\n\nCruel Winter With You by Ali Hazelwood\n\nThe Christmas Fix by Lucy Score\n\nMerry Christmas you Filthy Animal by Meghan Quinn\n\nGift To His Dad by J. Wilde\n\nLumber Snack by May Harden","spotifyEmbedId":"11kBO6GHUvlMRWHabM5owB","releaseDate":"December 15, 2025","duration":"55 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":22,"createdAt":"2025-12-15T16:05:58.797Z","updatedAt":"2025-12-15T16:05:58.797Z"},{"id":25,"title":"Sex Drive, But Make It Science...And Santa Daddies","slug":"Sex-Drive-But-Make-It-Science-And-Santa-Daddies","description":"In this slightly unhinged episode, SJ and Kay dig into sex drive and why it’s a somewhat silly, misunderstood concept. They walk through more serious theories like the ABC model (not the Jackson 5), the motivation–incentive framework, and, of course, Emily Nagoski’s accelerators and brakes...but with some major detours into less scientific territory, including Brie from Desperate Housewives and Kay’s obsession with the Unwrap Me Christmas novella by Natalia Lourose. They challenge the idea that men are constantly thinking about sex, poke holes in evolutionary narratives that try to box desire by gender, and explore why so many women hit their sexual stride in their late 20s to 40s. The conversation veers into Santa smut, the cautionary tale of using a Christmas ornament as a DIY sex toy (please do not), and why masturbation might actually be a better indicator of libido than partnered sex. With their signature mix of humor, research, and chaos, the hosts may or may not leave you with a better understanding of sex drive. ..Only guarantee from listening is that you won't look a nutcracker ornament the same way again. Cheers!","spotifyEmbedId":"5ApRPvVhxIm70E23D9Avxp","releaseDate":"December 9, 2025","duration":"39 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":21,"createdAt":"2025-12-09T12:51:18.200Z","updatedAt":"2025-12-15T16:03:39.794Z"},{"id":24,"title":"Book Sex vs. Screen Sex Showdown","slug":"Book-Sex-vs-Screen-Sex-Showdown","description":"We talk about women's porn preferences and champion that it's totally fine if porn's not your vibe. We debate on quick-hit horniness vs. slow-burn romance reads, and zero in on why mainstream porn often flops. Think Pornhub's assault of unrealistically enormous assets, black-and-orange overload, and demoralizing tropes like teary face shots and \"breeding\" boss fantasies that prioritize peenies over desire. Backed by 2024 stats that nearly 40% of users are women with a higher interest in lesbian scenes for their female-pleasure focus. We call out the site's gateway traps: bombastic thumbnails, floodlit aesthetics, and ads with peeny panic. But fear not, fellow seekers, we talk on the hotter havens tailored for us, from Bellesea's lingerie-lush lesbian and couple clips to Tushy's plot-driven foreplay, and Make Love Not Porn's authentic chemistry. We also talk on the why books are so great in this area, with us being able to create the scene in our heads instead of having less-than-great-visuals jammed at us. With a lot of honesty, this episode's a permission slip to curate your own climax— or opt out entirely. (NSFW alert: Explicit rants and a critique of Pornhub's main page videos.)","spotifyEmbedId":"5STtKLy0MJGzLwrjyQ6pHN","releaseDate":"December 2, 2025","duration":"49 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"The Welcome to the Good Girls podcast Today's conversation is jumping off of a little chat that we had with some of our friends the other night.\n0:17\nIt started with my A Court of Silver Flames book review as mentioned in a previous episode.\nNot loving this book I have actually.\nBut it gets hot.\nOK so I actually have gotten to the part where it got it gets hot and I agree like the sex scenes are the hot parts are hot.\n0:34\nMy point was that you have to read through so much character development about characters that I don't care about, which would be different.\nTo have that payoff to get to the.\nPayoff of the sex scene, Yeah.\nAnd it would be different.\nLike I feel like a lot of times with the romanticy stuff, it's like, oh, you're really invested in the character development and it helps you to better get into the sex scenes later when you understand the dynamic between the characters in the whole world building.\n0:58\nBut in the case of Nesta and Cassie and I was just like, blah, moving on.\nSo my point was if you just want some sexy bits, I guess I'd rather watch porn.\nAnd that sparked a really interesting conversation because then some of our friends were like, I would never watch porn.\n1:17\nIt's just not.\nIt does not do it for me.\nWell this is interesting.\nSo just to comment quickly on how I use the two and that is exactly it, which is that if I know for a fact that I am horny, my partner's not around, then yes, porn is the surefire fast way to be there for romanticy contemporary romance.\n1:40\nIt feels more like an added benefit that I'm reading the book for enjoyment and the scenes are likely going to make me feel sexier, think of sexy things and just be an overall more, I don't know, actually interested person.\nBut but like two different needs.\n1:57\nI don't think I would be like, I'm gonna, oh, I'm horny.\nI'm gonna go open up this exact scene in this book and like, get a vibrator out.\nSee, I definitely think that there are women doing that.\nAnd so we can we can jump in talking about that.\nBut I do also just kind of want to start with a disclaimer that I think there's a lot of stuff for women that we had this whole sexual revolution.\n2:19\nWe all in the 90s were Cosmo girls, etcetera, etcetera.\nAnd now we've moved into the modern sex positive idea of feminism, of that feminism involves generally being sex positive.\nAnd I think that sometimes for us, that involves shaming people who are prudes or you.\n2:36\nNobody should be shamed as a prude for not going to sign on Pornhub that plays.\nYeah, Yeah.\nI think that's kind.\nOf actually the basis on which maybe we can launch into some was a conversation about when we think of porn and, and I think you and I both have been on Pornhub before.\n2:53\nAnd then also specifically went on to get some data for this episode.\nAnd yeah, I gotta say, when I just went on the Pornhub main page.\nIt's really unpleasant.\nI'm a.\nVery sex positive person and I was just like dear to God.\nWhat?\nIs that yeah, I say like as a big titty person.\n3:12\nSo I am pro big titty that then also the number of enormously unrealistically large boobs on the main screen of pornhub if you sign on with no previous history it's like.\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\nThere's just so much of it that's in your face, so.\nBlack and orange, not colors that any woman would have picked.\n3:30\nIt is not definitely all designed for the male gaze.\nOkay, I think you got some stats about women's consumption on Pornhub since they have some gender differentiated data.\nSo as of the end of 2024, almost 4 out of 10 Pornhub consumers are women, and that is a steadily growing number.\n3:52\nIt was 1/3 a few years ago.\nSo we're on the rise.\nStill yes.\nGlobally, men account for about 80% of porn consumers across all sides, but on Pornhub it's increasing and top category lesbian porn, which I thought was interesting because Bellicia that is Bellicia that is like the woman designed porn place.\n4:16\nAnd if you sign on their their website, every single picture on that main page is actually a woman.\nTwo women together to and it is four women and you know about 10% of like women are are identify as not straight.\n4:33\nSo that would mean that, you know, you're also getting the 90% in there like straight women are 100% going for.\nI am 100% part of the lesbian porn for straight women clientele and I think personally that is because the ones that involve men, I mean, we'll get into this more obviously.\n4:51\nThe way that they touch is nicer.\nYeah, and and also then like it centers female pleasure in it.\nAnd I mean it's has a man involved in it, even if it's two girls and a man, the male pleasure is at the center of it.\nAnd again, it gets into a lot of this whole just like she's gagging on his Dick stuff that I'm like.\n5:11\nYeah, that's like not just head, but like tears are like running down the face as she gets.\nYeah, he's coming on her face, which as obviously mentioned is not an experience that I enjoy.\nAnd so I think that it's, it's partially that, I mean, people have theorized before that the female body is also just more pleasant to look at, but I think it's because it centers female pleasure and there's no just like giant Dicks being shoved.\n5:36\nIn like left.\nAnd right, very little foreplay and.\nAfter lesbian is threesome is like one of the most popular for women, which again feels like along the same line.\nYeah, exactly.\nLikely you know two women women, though double penetration is also a popular search for for women.\n5:57\nI guess at least in that case, the woman is still at the center of it.\nI don't know whether we're centering her pleasure or not.\nThat would sort of depend on their directorial decisions.\nIt's actually our age range 35 to 44 that is most likely to our relative numbers are much more for double penetration, I don't know.\n6:13\nWhat that?\nThat's when you get interested in it.\nJust remember that you know whoever has a smaller Peony needs to go in through the back door.\nSo if you're bringing another person in, you got to like check out the size.\nYou have to have a measuring competition.\nFirst you would not measure and then they line up in order.\n6:30\nYeah, it will feel great for the smaller person.\nThis is the other kind of fun stat that I had to share, which is that 65 plus.\nSo the 65 plus women category are are relatively more interested in hand job videos, which like just I was fascinated by like who looks up a hand job videos.\n6:50\nI, I this is genuine curiosity.\nI'm just throwing out a theory here, but do you think it's because they don't know about all the different?\nBecause I'm I'm looking ahead here at the map that you have hopefully pulled of the top relative searches by women.\nI'm just going to say that I don't know that the 65 year old plus women in my life know a lot of these words.\n7:11\nSo I think that they just like don't know to search for My Little Pony sex.\nSo you think that they did not know to look for anime porn?\nIs that your suspicion?\nWell, I would think.\nAnime porn they would also probably not that would just like not be your thing.\n7:27\nThere's also a daddy like daddy is just a common search in the state that's next to Illinois.\nApparently my US geography is off.\nThat's Indiana.\nThat's Indiana, and Indiana likes their daddies.\nI just like the ones where the biggest search in the state, like in the state of Pennsylvania, the top relative search term is Philly.\n7:48\nLike what?\nWhat is distinctive about the like terroir of Philly that just like makes it great corn?\nYou're like an Eagles.\nFan.\nYou're like as a dedicated Philadelphia resident and Eagles fan, I only watched Philly.\nKing, Nevada.\n8:05\nIt's like just Las Vegas.\nWhich is also the case for Maryland and Baltimore.\nAnd I gotta say, that's probably some that's got to be some gritty porn.\nEbony lesbians is also a big thing in Maryland.\nThat's that's Delaware.\nNever mind.\nNo, that's.\nDC, sorry.\n8:21\nSo Maryland is sandwiched between 2 Ebony lesbian searchers and then here in Maryland we're just looking for Baltimore porn and there's Detroit in Michigan.\nI don't know I I just I'm confused.\nI want to know more of the details of the locale specific porn.\n8:37\nYes it is it's wonderful and if anybody wants to look this up, it's Pornhub insights about women use and they have really whoever was in charge at Pornhub's marketing to make this report and they were having a good time I'm.\n8:54\nSubmitting this to the terrible maps Instagram feed.\nI also want to know more about.\nI'm picturing the My Little Pony searchers that dominate in Idaho.\nAre all the people on the like weird Mormon compound in the like northern part of Idaho?\nAnd they are.\nLike pumping up against the poor.\n9:10\nHentai people in Washington state living side by side with the glory hole porn searchers in Oregon.\nYes, so Pornhub is something it could be considered a gateway into porn.\nI think that if you are a woman who's going to look up porn, the first thing that you're probably going to do for a lot of us is go to the site that you hear about the most and you will get bombarded by just so many videos that are not designed by their little thumbnail clip was not chosen based off of the woman gaze.\n9:43\nEven though we are, 40% of the users are going to assume when you sign on that you're you're a male.\nIt's like you're.\nA woman shopping in a store for men is what it feels like.\nAnd so it's like you can come in there and shop if you want, but like, we're not going to rearrange the store for you.\nYeah, you're going to need to like specifically look in the categories and sign on and have your account if you want to have a little bit of a prettier one there for you.\n10:07\nYeah, and some examples of this.\nSo I just logged into Pornhub today to pull some examples of what we're talking about.\nNothing like a Monday morning Pornhub search.\nI know.\nWell the The funny thing is when I was setting up the privacy settings on my kids iPad, somehow I have eliminated the ability to Incognito mode or do sites that are marked forever.\n10:28\nSo I got to just go take Mr. SJ's phone.\nNo matter what laptop I'm using I had like even if I'm like using one that absolutely has no affiliation with work anything I'm like it must be in Incognito.\nAnd I know that Incognito mode doesn't even do that much other than like not put it in your browser history, but I think that it hopefully does at least reduce the amount of like my, my ads, my search specific ads that show up in my websites later We'll.\n10:53\nBe looking at some larger penis enlargement.\nYeah, exactly.\nSo yeah, I was just like oh hey, can I borrow your phone?\nWhich he's very accepting of my research needs cuz he's like, what do you need it for?\nAnd I'm like, I gotta.\nJust research.\nJust gotta look at some porn.\n11:09\nSo originally I actually was logging in cuz my point was just going to be that even the decisions like the lighting and the clothes and just like the whole aesthetic of it is really what I find off putting in male created porn.\nBut I got to say I logged in.\n11:25\nIt was even worse than I remembered.\nSo some of the headlines caught craving slut rides until her pussy is filled with cum.\nLesbian stepmother fucks her busy stepdaughter.\nAnd I do have to say too, you can tell also that this is lesbian made primarily for the male gaze based on how femme all the lesbians are.\n11:45\nAnd this was pointed out to me that like also the Hallmark Christmas movies that they're starting to make woman woman ones that they're still incredibly femme.\nThere's never any Butch lesbians.\nAnd that's how you can tell that it is still made for a straight audience.\nA really thick Dick to break the pussy of a slut.\n12:04\nThinking about breeding is making me hot.\nThat one's from Mom, Lover, and Isabelle craves a huge cream pie subtitle.\nThen there were two about fucking.\nBreeding doesn't make you hot.\nIt's like breeding.\n12:21\nThat would that would definitely pay for men and I sometime if I have more time I will just go check out Mom Lover as a content creator 'cause I feel like that was just a particularly non woman friendly.\nBreeding kinks are things.\nYeah, is it?\n12:38\nI bet that.\nOK now I want to know was breeding a search king for any?\nNo no, no woman did I see breeding kings I'm pretty sure like a very male specific breeding kink.\nMaybe, although I was searching for holiday smut and there was definitely one about Santa bought her sister as a slave to make her into a breeder because Santa needed an heir.\n12:58\nOh my.\nSo, and I just have to say that was obviously written by a woman for women, so OK, never.\nSay never.\nA daddy Santa was a real daddy.\nI know something about his tree trunk size that she wanted to be crushed between them so.\nWe've always, you know, and everybody's had their little fantasy that they've wanted to blow Santa before.\n13:17\nWell, wait till I give you this book pay and you can finally live out that fantasy.\nThe one that I specially picked for you though, OK, was the holiday Satan's month because of your.\nThat's my thing.\nThey just like they have like extra things that they do during sex.\n13:36\nIn every single book I've ever read that has like a Satan or demon thing, you'll have to.\nCompare it to your previous experience with demon sexy literature.\nSo I felt like the two were the biggest example that I found of this just really being created for the male gaze.\nWas that on my initial scroll through maybe the 1st 18 videos and we're 2 about fucking your boss, But it was the man fucking his female boss.\n14:00\nAnd so you're like maybe this is like power meant like the boss is a woman.\nYou're our Lord 2025.\nIt was the least empowering.\nSo the one that I clicked on was dealing with the annoying bitch that is my boss.\nShe looks to be about 20 and so.\n14:17\nIt's more about like demeaning a person who's in a power.\nIt totally was and I also just have to say that she's going to find it hard to move up in the corporate world because she looked like she got her outfit from the wet seal.\n14:34\nThis was a Spanish video, so I don't maybe she's just European, but yeah, it was total like domination kind of stuff of of like she just immediately like kneels down in front of him.\nHe just like shoves her his Dick in her mouth.\nYou know, that goes on for several scenes of different angles of that happening until he's like ass fucking her with his fingers in her mouth.\n14:56\nAnd then the cumshot to her face was truly demoralizing because like, she just didn't even look like she was able to pretend that she was liking it.\nShe was just kind of like blinking and like, and she had like cute little glasses on and they got all messy and.\n15:13\nStuff glasses to protect her eyes.\nI yeah, I know it can really burn your eyes.\nSo anyway, I was just like, you know, after 5 minutes of perusing the headlines on Pornhub, I totally get why.\nAnd that being like one of the biggest sites and, and like that being the sort of thing that comes up if you are just like, OK, like maybe I'll try porn.\n15:35\nLet's see what it's all about.\nThat yeah, you're going to be like, this is not for me, and so I must not like porn.\nYeah.\nSo what's interesting is that I actually, the videos that I do watch, I would imagine are at least somewhat catered towards men, but we probably Fast forward to different parts.\n15:54\nAnd on Pornhub, they have this feature where you can see the most viewed part of a video.\nSo you can see that people Fast forward and probably watch the cum shots and stuff like that.\nSo there's like this series of videos cushy.\nAnd The funny thing is that I'm not into watching anal, but for some reason this series of videos has like the best, hottest foreplay.\n16:15\nLike they always have some type of scenario.\nIt's like a boss secretary or it's my boyfriend messed up and I'm here to like help pay his debt to you.\nSo in the foreplay is really, really good so I don't even get into the the part that makes it tushy so we're probably watching it differently me and their average viewer.\n16:35\nThat's true.\nThey also are more likely to have hot European guys.\nYeah, so there's.\nThat, yeah, I think for me there is a lot of the pieces are not even the choices about what types of sex they're engaging in.\n16:53\nBecause I do think if you don't just click on the first thing on the page, on standard porn websites, there are definitely videos where I'm like, OK, I can get into generally what they're doing.\nThey're a little bit more creative.\nAnd Even so, just the whole look of them, I feel like I could be 10 times more into porn.\n17:11\nAnd I do notice a difference on the female created sites.\nThe lighting is so fucking terrible, I'm just so distracted by that.\nGood lighting.\nYeah, I have watched them though.\nBut yeah, it's just like they just like are obviously in some like very generic looking Airbnb and they have floodlights shine more.\n17:30\nThan furniture than average.\nYeah, and there's terrible design decisions, and when they attempt to have some dialogue it's very uncomfortable.\nBut just for me, the lighting alone can catapult a video from amateurish into enjoyable.\n17:46\nAnd that unfortunately I think is my problem with some of the ones that might be female generated, but their user created contributions is that it's just so distracting sometimes saying this is people who have a podcast that frequently has issues, but.\nYeah, I don't know.\nWe.\n18:03\nUnderstand poor production issues.\nWe're more sympathetic than most to it.\nSo the ads are a big part of what makes it, like, turn off as well, because the ads are very, very in your face and they're so tailored for men and odd sometimes.\n18:20\nYeah, some of them are like, I can be your virtual assistant sex buddy for only $200 a month.\nAnd it's like this anime person's coming at you.\nAnd it can make it that it's, you know, like alien alienating for you woman even when there is an alien.\n18:39\nIt also just contributes to my theory that the men are not okay based on the general advertisements that are being aimed at the typical porn consumer.\nI think that this.\nA lot of them have ineffective based on the amount of things that are for increasing the efficacy of your day.\n18:55\nNeed some virtual help?\nYeah, something that I haven't seen as much recently, though.\nAgain, maybe I'm just not digging around as much as I used to.\nBut when I first started watching porn, I was like, wow, there's a lot of girls with braces.\nLike there's a lot of porn women who have braces.\n19:11\nAnd then I talked to, I mentioned that to my partner and they're like, oh, they're fake braces that adult women put on to make themselves look younger because the men who watch it want to feel like they're like really young, which I thought was so disturbing.\n19:30\nI don't know, imagine, imagine like the reverse of that.\nLike imagine us wanting to watch a video more of the guy.\nLike paying some acne onto his face so that he just looks like make his voice crack.\nYeah, Yeah, I don't know, especially just in again, like we're just in this whole era with people finally talking about a lot of the stuff that was in like in the Epstein files and just this whole fetishization of the Lolita kind of thing.\n19:57\nAnd it's just very ick for me.\nYeah.\nMegyn Kelly being like, oh, actually they he just liked them to be like barely legal 16 year old.\nYou're like Megyn Kelly, 16, not barely legal.\nThat's the whole point.\n20:14\nIs not legal.\nLike yeah, a 16 year old is different than an 8 year old, but that's we're not talking about that in regards to whether or not it's OK for a 40 year old man to have sex with him.\nYeah, this is just a conversation that you shouldn't find yourself having, Megan.\nSo male fantasies with ethical red flags.\n20:32\nWell, one of them is definitely the braces thing.\nBut like, the teen, the stepdaughter, like that's all there.\nAnd you see it.\nA lot of gangbang is actually more likely to be looked up by women than men.\nYeah, we're the problematic ones there.\n20:47\nWell, and I guess I'm trying to give.\nI guess it depends what you do.\nAfter dramatic, but yeah.\nWell, I guess that's what I mean.\nIt depends what you do afterwards with it.\nBecause we've talked a lot before about how, you know, men will say, oh, women like you say that you want equality in relationships and yet you're like Googling gangbang porn and our response to that.\n21:07\nAnd a lot of women will say like, oh, this is just this fantasy way to explore taboos, to live out fantasy in a way that we don't actually like want to go out and get gangbanged.\nI guess it just sort of depends what you're doing afterwards with it.\nBecause I do think that on the other hand I hear more with some of the violent non consensuals kind of stuff in sex that for especially young men watching it without a lot of contextualizing education about it, that it is shaping their idea of sex.\n21:37\nYes, I will not have my idea of sex shaped by a gangbang.\nI also can say that it's just not one of the things I've personally have looked up.\nI've heard that like BDSM is on the rise as things that women look up recently, which I would imagine is the least like in part because of different books like 50 Shades of Grey that kind of romanticized that.\n21:59\nBut again, I don't think that any of us are expecting like, we're going to find some great male lover who also has like, room of like, you know, sex stuff.\nYeah, I think if that happened to me in real life, especially if I wasn't seeking that out, yeah, I would just, I would hard pass.\n22:16\nI think This is why you start out having dates in very public locations.\nYeah.\nIt doesn't seem like it's happening as much for women to have this seeping in that oh, they're listening to, watching, reading violent stuff, and then they're going out and gang banging people in real life.\n22:33\nThere's a lot of research to show that it affects women in other kinds of ways.\nI think just basically the whole centering on the male gaze does teach women, if you're experiencing porn without contextualizing education, that this idea that they are these passive objects, that they're recipients of male desire, they're not the initiators and their pleasures kind of not at the center of things.\n22:56\nSo that's helping to further those kinds of cultural myths.\nJust to put out there and I think like, like it's kind of funny because to me, who has, you know, a praise king, like think of something of a turn on to be told like what to do and like how somebody likes it.\nI have to forcibly tell my partner, like this is what you're doing and you're doing it for my pleasure.\n23:16\nLike like if Darian Sax like I know you are not necessarily comfortable with being like, Hey, I wanted this position or I want this, but like, can you please do that because it's going to make make me have a good time.\nSo he's almost my passive object.\nHe's my passive object telling me to be a passive object.\n23:34\nYou're like.\nOK, I'm gonna send a scene.\nHere's your spread.\nYou just read these lines.\nLike an inception?\nYeah, like I, I, if you just watch the scene, you think that I'm the passive object, but actually it's him being used.\nTo be like, I'm also the director of this, yes.\n23:50\nDon't worry, I directed.\nThe scene, I think that's true for a lot of things because there was comments about how it's expected that women get ideas, that they're expected to mimic how women behave in porn.\nTaking the cum shot to the face, for example, being open to anal, which obviously like some people enjoy it and some people don't.\n24:11\nBut the idea that that's just sort of the norm and that if you are somebody who's sexually adventurous, that you have to enjoy whatever place the guy's Dick is in.\nSo I saw something really funny about Adolf.\nIt was from a male perspective.\nSo receiving a blowjob is like riding a Maserati or a Ferrari.\n24:30\nReally, really wonderful.\nIn the hands of the right driver, having sex is a luxury sedan.\nLike it's gonna be comfortable.\nIt has all the features that you need.\nIt's gonna be a really, really nice time.\nDoing an anal is like driving a Jeep with a top off or something.\nLike it's kind of fun for like the basics and for like once every three to four months ride.\n24:49\nBut you don't necessarily want the Jeep Wrangler with the top off to be your everyday car.\nYeah, OK.\nI like that.\nAnd I, I read some statistics somewhere about the number of couples who had had anal sex and several other kinds of things that are considered less vanilla.\nAnd those numbers have gone up a lot in line with the amount of porn watching going up.\n25:10\nAnd so it, it's kind of difficult to just look at those numbers and say anything meaningful about it because if it is just that people are more sexually open to adventure, exploring things and they're like, Oh my gosh, I never thought about having sex in that position.\nThat looks fun.\nLet's we're mutually interested in trying.\n25:26\nIt is different and maybe hard to sort out since it will really vary by person of like what is oh I'm not really that into this thing but I feel obligated and my male partner is like well of course you have to do this because every woman who is a good sexual partner is open to me sex trying out my Dick in different spots.\n25:48\nSimilarly with I read a statistic on and I want to say this was something like Cosmo, even if it wasn't Cosmo on women in their pubic hair.\nObviously if you've seen 70's porn or anything with nude women 70s or earlier at full Bush and then you know, there have been various trends since then.\n26:08\nNow there are hair trends, first of all, that can come and go in terms of different shapes and stuff like that and going full Brazilian.\nBut yeah, I think just the huge rise in that versus before the bleached.\nBooty.\nSo it's like, on one hand, I guess it's nice that we feel comfortable talking about it, that there are options.\n26:29\nI think anything with, you know, women changing their bodies, there's questions about are you doing it for yourself?\nAre you doing it for your male partner?\nAre you doing it because of the societal expectation that you're supposed to look a certain way?\nIt's kind of hard to sort those all out and say that there's one reason for it.\n26:45\nBut porn is definitely a huge contributor in that in terms of like you have a lot of visuals and in front of you in terms of before that, I think that you wouldn't really have a lot of direct knowledge of what women were doing with.\nTheir pubic hair.\nAn easy way to know whether you do it for other people or for your actual partner is like during the winter when you aren't going to the pool, what's your situation?\n27:09\nAnd then like during the summer when you are going to the pool, what's your situation?\nBecause personally I've already considered shopping, shaping my like knees.\nI think nobody's going to see them.\nI'm in pants for a while.\nMy partner can deal just blonde fuzz.\nYeah, this is this is a key difference between you and me also, Kay, is that if you let your hair grow back and it's blonde fuzz, and if I do, it's a whole different situation.\n27:34\nIt's like things that are up to us and that we do for a lot of different reasons than just our partner.\nBut yes, when you see porn, you know, almost across the board.\nActually, I watched one recently where like the the woman, the porn woman had hair that probably had all been shaved like a day ago or like earlier in the morning.\n27:54\nAnd I was like. 5:00 Shadow I was.\nLike this is like the worst possible situation for everybody involved.\nI'd rather like.\nFriction against the 5:00 shadow like.\nYeah, when he was like fingering her, I was like, Oh my gosh, make it stop.\nLike I just I It's so raspy.\nSo I think if you're making your living with your your genital area on camera, I would spread, I would spring for a waxing or laser hair removal or something along those lines so that you're not just dealing with shaving.\n28:23\nAnd you know, stubble also is a big thing for me, a woman.\nDirector would have never let that fly.\nThey would have been like, we're going to take a break.\nI'll just be.\nUncomfortable on her behalf and be like here is a few bucks to just like go to a a qualified waxer.\nGet yourself feeling good.\n28:40\nSo now that we've discussed what we don't like about porn that is clearly made by men for men, let's talk a little bit about the growing industry of porn that is made by women for women.\n28:57\nOr non binary.\nYeah, exactly.\nThings.\nThings that are not just being rammed with a Dick.\nYeah.\nAnd they're focused on things like fair pay, which is a way to make sure that like consent is really there for women, diversity, real chemistry and like a higher production quality.\n29:14\nAgain, we say as people with poor production quality, but we could still ask for it in our.\nReport but at least we don't have videos so you can't see how good our lighting is, which I will tell you it is really good.\nGreat.\nI liked on the diversity piece, somebody that I read pointed out that diversity also means having that in a non fetish kind of way.\n29:34\nBecause it seems like a lot of times when I find it, or maybe that's just the search terms on regular kinds of websites, it's like if there is any diversity, it is just like this very, yeah, fetishy, kind of like.\nYeah, instead of it just yeah, being like, oh, that's a Hotmail actor.\nAnd that's how I'm interested.\n29:51\nSo Bellasy again makes me laugh because you sign on and it's for women.\nAnd it's all like really beautiful women, couples women by themselves and like really, really excellent lingerie that looks great.\nWhen there are guys, they're attractive in ways that are attractive to women, not macho in the way that you know, men are looking for natural bodies and plot driven scenes.\n30:14\nObviously I'm all about the plot.\nIf you were to, if you were to watch like the history of like when K watches porn, it's like all storyline, storyline, storyline.\nThere has to be.\nDone.\nRight.\nLike, I mean, yeah.\nAnd it doesn't take too long to set something up and try to have just like some attempt at, again, like, why are these characters here?\n30:34\nMakes me think of theatre camp.\nYou know you'd be on stage and you're delivering lines and the director.\n'S always like.\nWhat's your motivation?\nYou know, I'm like, why?\nWhy are they here?\nWhy are they motivated to be like licking whipped cream off of each other?\nI need to know.\nMake Love Not Porn is such a sweet website.\n30:51\nIt's all mostly like real couples who are somebody in their videos and you can help, like from the minute that you sign on and you look at like, the videos and like their faces and everything that there's like just genuine liking towards the couple.\nI think it's interesting.\nThey both found each other and they're both fine with like, you know, posting their videos.\n31:10\nBut yeah.\nI do appreciate that.\nI felt like I watched that one and I was just distracted.\nAgain, there's something to be said for having professional third party camera people and lighting and things and not just setting up your iPhone on a tripod in front of your bed and having one angle or a hot tub or wherever you are.\n31:28\nWe can again speak first hand that sound lot trickier than you think sound is going to be.\nSo there is value in professional setup and then making sure that people get paid and all that.\nI have a list of other ones, we can drop it into our show notes for other ones that people can check out.\n31:46\nWhat's your experience been?\nDo you have any things that you didn't enjoy as much about watching the women creating for women?\nMore inclusive, kind of.\nThis is going to sound like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too.\nI thought that even though I like the storylines and I want the storylines to be there, some of them are just so much storyline while you're still not necessarily watching the best actors and actresses out there.\n32:13\nSo it's like, I don't know, we're 10 minutes in.\nCan we get to the sex now and then some?\nHad some experience with ones like that that they tried to like make it into a mini art film kind of thing and it's like OK.\nYeah, there's a beautiful piano playing in the background.\n32:29\nFor the 1st 5 minutes I'm like, well, like I'm feeling relaxed but I'm like almost not even feeling horny anymore.\nI don't know.\nYeah, yeah, exactly my experience.\nAlso, on some of the ones that I watched when I was trying to find some female creative porn that I liked, I would say similar to you, that sometimes they got a little too into the story and I'm like, OK, like, get to the sex.\n32:50\nThis is not why we're here.\nAnd also, and maybe this is just me and that I need to admit that at my core, I'm like kind of a vanilla person and I'm pretty straight.\nBut like some of it that was a little bit more like we're gonna be like creative art house kind of stuff.\nI feel like for me personally, I'm glad that it's out there, but I was like, I'm maybe not the target audience.\n33:10\nSimilar is I'm not the target audience for like bondage hentai, like whatever kind of stuff at some of the various categories that there are.\nI also felt like some of the things I'm like.\nYeah, it's, it's a little too much.\nWell, that's why like in like the first page of Pornhub is just like I'm like relatively like not vanilla for my own like, you know, neighboring culture or like piece of society.\n33:34\nBut I obviously am very very vanilla compared.\nTo from the overall the full range of what's out there for porn consumers.\nYeah, like I am in a straight married relationship therefore.\nAnd that is something I will say for Pornhub is it is definitely just the like Amazon.com of porn in that you have like all the different providers in there.\n33:57\nYes.\nAnd that you have all the stuff that you have things from like legitimate providers mixed in with like the cheap Timu kind of knock off stuff.\nAnd so you have to really have specific search terms to go in there.\nBut The thing is that you can and it's always like, here's like a teaser, here's clips of it and we want you to sign on.\n34:14\nAnd I want people to pay for porn because again, I think that that helps put your money where your mouth is, is in terms of making sure that people are fairly compensated.\nOr just buy that male penis enlarge on the side and that will support them too as an ad supported.\nExactly, does it need more male penis enlargers around?\n34:33\nThat's why I have like 5 females virtual sex agents.\nNow I just want to support the producer.\nJust for gender equality, because if men can have them, I can have them too.\nAll my robots.\nNo, totally, but I was gonna say what I do enjoy about it is that you can like watch the clips for free.\n34:52\nAnd so then if I was like, oh, I really love the porn of mom love, then I can go subscribe there breeding kink.\nAnd a lot of exactly I can go to my breeding kink specific providers.\nMy experience was a lot of these ones and I understand why, especially because they're smaller shops and I think it's a lot more complicated to try to release a little bit while still getting people to pay for the whole thing.\n35:14\nBut a lot of them were just like behind a pay wall.\nAnd so I had to decide whether to like spend $20 on a month of this and only to find that I'm like, OK, this is not really my flavor.\nI felt like that kind of on my quest that I was on at one point in my life to try to find an enjoyable website of female created content that was equitably paying its creators.\n35:38\nIt became kind of a difficult thing.\nSo I was like creating all these accounts, watching some stuff, being like, that's not for me, cancel it going into my e-mail box because inevitably they sign you up for emails and then I have to like unsubscribe from all their emails every time and things like that.\n35:54\nAnd it just became a lot.\nAnd I'm like, I don't like porn that much.\nAnd that kind of takes us back to where a lot of women end up, which is that we end up with the erotic.\nFiction, reading books and being able to envision the people is nice.\n36:11\nAnd I feel like I misspoke earlier about that because to me, I think it's a timing thing.\nI can read a book whenever.\nAnd I normally read books like outside of work hours when my partner is available.\nSo I guess I don't really have to think about whether or not, like, during a book scene, I then masturbate because there's normally happening at a time when, like, either I can't because I'm at like, a hockey practice or domestic practice or something.\n36:36\nAnd so like, it's not going to be a time to masturbate or it's a time when I have my partner and I'm just going to, you know, give a few pokes.\nYeah.\nWhereas master.\nWhereas a master.\nWhereas porn I think is something that it's more likely that I'm doing at some time where like my partner's not around.\n36:51\nYou're and you're specifically seeking out because you need something to, like, get you in the mood.\nYeah.\nSo why else would you say that the reasons are so obviously with erotic fiction, women are by and large the primary consumers of it.\nAnd then porn more mixed but historically male dominated and still kind of seems like it's that way.\n37:13\nThoughts.\nI think that the more that we have control over the picture of what's happening, the hotter it is.\nLike I would not want to watch 2 male actors double penetrate a woman.\nLike that is something I have very limited interest in watching.\n37:29\nIt's very unlikely that would be done in a way that would be sexy to me.\nBut in that weird book that was traumatic and I really do not recommend reading it, that they're so vicious.\nWhen there was a scene where they both entered in, they did it like so carefully and thoughtfully to the woman.\nAnd I was like, OK, this is kind of, I'm like imagining the details.\n37:46\nThat are doing it for me.\nAnd then it's just kind of fuzzy on the parts.\nI'm not like imagining too many like specific details of like the veins and the scrotum and things like that.\nBut when you are watching porn that is all in your face and like the the veins and the scrotum are not doing it for me.\nBut nonetheless, I am forced to stare at them.\n38:02\nAnd they were able to explain, like, from, like, the woman's perspective, how it's feeling while this hat is happening and like, how I don't how I feel so good and how she's turned on.\nAnd, you know, and the reverse of that, like when you're watching it on video and they're trying to show that it feels good for a woman by, like, zooming in on a person's face.\n38:20\nHe's like, yeah, that's not she just.\nLooks uncomfortable and a little bit glazed over usually.\nI don't know.\nAnd maybe she's having thoughts in her head.\nAnd there was making the noises that they're like, yeah, yeah.\nIt's like I.\nDon't.\nAnd I'm like stop, stop with the baby talk like this is so not my thing.\n38:40\nAnd we've discussed.\nLast literally their exact show.\nI know I'm really good at it.\nI could be a porn voice over a person just that just did another career option for me.\nBut we discussed this on the last episode specifically around Twilight and that there was stuff that I felt like you could have read in the book and like imagined it in whatever way was OK for you.\n39:00\nBut then when they just tried to like very directly portray it on screen, it just looked so silly.\nAnd we were all of us saying, this is not the yeah, this is not the way that I was visualizing it.\nAnd like Robert Pattinson's not the Edward that I was visualizing.\n39:17\nSo you're forced to like whatever one visual idea the the film production people have with the Court of Silver Flames.\nOne I think our friend and I and the two of us were in a text chat about some of the things for that of like the sex scenes being hot in the book.\n39:35\nBut it will be very hard to ever do the like movie TV adaptation well.\nHe has wings, Yeah.\nSo just just from.\nWings to have those not be a cheesy Batman thing.\nI think for UK specifically you were saying that the man bun and the frequent references to Cassian's flowing hair that he pulls back in a bun head to.\n39:55\nDo work in my head.\nI just had to cut that hair.\nI had to give him a trim.\nYeah, I read one that was like.\nAnd the guy had like earrings on both sides.\nAnd I was like, not my thing, just gonna go ahead and erase those earrings from the description.\nYep, earlier in that theories we discussed Tamlin and the first book.\n40:14\nThey definitely mask fuck while he's still wearing his little party mask.\nAnd I was, I mean, I was giggling thinking about it while I was reading that scene.\nIt did seem unnecessary, but absolutely, if I was gonna try to be getting hyped up while I was reading that scene, the mask would be.\n40:32\nDeleted.\nYeah.\nAnother theory that a lot of people put forth and I would want to kind of challenge is this idea that men are very visual creatures and women aren't.\nAnd that feeds into the whole idea also that men are just innately more sexual.\n40:50\nAnd so therefore like pretty much anything can be a sexual stimulus for men.\nAnd it's just like, oh, just like they think about sex 6 * a minute or whatever.\nAnd just like everything to me that really feeds into the whole idea then that like women are most like non sexual passive recipients of male desire.\n41:08\nAnd your job is also to kind of like hold the male desire at Bay and like try not to be too sexy because they would be able to unable to control themselves.\nOur job to hold the male sex desire at Bay.\nUnless we want to be huge.\nLots of yeah that would make my partner laugh as like the more I'm, the more frequent.\n41:28\nRelationship.\nYeah, I think it really, as we've said before, it really does the horny girls a disservice.\nAnd our queen Emily Negotii does say when I hear these generalized descriptions about sexuality, I have noticed they always position men as more inherently sexual than women and women as men's sexuality light.\n41:46\nAnd so I think that like men are visual creatures, everything around them stimulates them.\nWomen don't.\nAnd it's just because we're the, our sexuality is the same as men's, but less.\nAnd so there's just, it's a much newer field studying in women's sexuality and how it can just vary a lot between from woman to woman.\n42:08\nBut it's also not just necessarily like we like the same things men like, but we're just not as turned on by them.\nAnd that's something that I feel like I've been learning about lately.\nThere's a study on the subject, which I feel like it's going to be a whole other episode because Frankenbach ET all did a meta analysis on sex drive and gender differences and try to first attempt to make a definition of like what it means to have a high sex drive.\n42:37\nAnd I'm so fascinated to just spend a whole episode digging into that because partially from what I've read before, it seems like the problem that you're going to run into if you come up with one definition of what is a sex drive.\nAnd and this is a high one and this is a low 1 is that that is just going to be such a like 1 axis scale that leaves no room for kind of all of the diversity of human sexuality and how that's expressed.\n43:01\nI think that the book sales tell you that women are sexual.\nThey're just sexual in different ways than men.\nObviously we love this shit.\nAnd the final thing I was going to say too, somebody pointed out I was looking for critiques of this research meta analysis that we'll get into.\n43:18\nBut another one is just how socially acceptable it is for women to express any kind of sexual desire that they have.\nAnd they have to be careful because like that just the whole idea of kind of how men, it's like, oh, like, look at this guy, like going out and getting some being, you know, this stud.\n43:36\nAnd for women, it's like, you have to be very careful not to be seen as sweet.\nOK, to wrap this up, we've discussed a lot about porn that seems to be for men, porn that's more for women or people, not just like heterosis men, non binary.\n43:54\nIf you are somebody who has previously been like, yeah, porn just seems like a turn off, not for me.\nFrom your personal perspective, what are your kind of some places you could start?\nOK, I honestly would say that a lot of other women might like the beginning of tushy videos.\n44:14\nI'm not trying to say like you're definitely gonna like watching anal.\nI don't.\nI never even get to the penetration part.\nLike the foreplay in those videos is just really, really hot.\nBelisa, I would sign on because it would just give you an idea of what videos are there.\nIt's very pretty mild looking.\n44:31\nAnd so if you get overwhelmed on Pornhub and don't even want to type in to search for something, then I would just go straight to Palaisa.\nThat's where I think I would go cuz Palaisa is still like professional looking.\nThere's other nice ones, but you do get a little like unprofessional, amateurish.\n44:48\nNice.\nOK.\nSo to tie up things from other episodes.\nI forgot to mention on a previous episode one of my the most important foundational sources of early romance things and that was historical romance kind of stuff.\n45:06\nBut I do feel like we deserve a shout out too.\nAnd we've mentioned on previous episodes, Pride and Prejudice, the works of Jane Austen, specifically Mr. Darcy, specifically as played by Cold Skip.\nOver we.\nWe forgot about the whole historical thing because they think we were more thinking about like the fantasy angle, which was probably.\n45:25\nIt from you out, Mr. Darcy.\nWe didn't, but I feel like especially because we had like on VHS, the Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth in it, that was that was an important one of just kind of like, again, our original shadow daddy.\nYes, you're right.\n45:41\nComplex.\nWe all put you right back on there Mr. Darcy, for the last episode and then to something that I wanted to share is that I read the book Leave Me Behind because I saw it as an Internet recommendation.\nNormally Internet does not steer me as weirdly as this one did.\n45:59\nIt is a book about a special private special OPS part of the RM Totally secret.\nLike the deadliest forces and the man and the woman there, you know, fall in love with each other.\nOh my gosh.\nShe gets cut and he takes the blood and uses it to Jack off privately behind a tree.\n46:20\nAnd then later on and like their first like kind of sexy and when they both know each other's identities, he has her spit on his Dick to help like clean up the blood.\nAnd then they have.\nSex with her.\nBlood, Oh my gosh, I it's like I have a thing about like blood is just dirty.\n46:36\nIt's very dirty.\nIt's how diseases pass and then they have sex.\nAnd all of those who work in the medical community are just like horrified by this agent.\nI feel like Doctor K cannot.\nIt was possibly recommend doing too.\nMuch and then like she has a sexual scene with his twin brother after she just gave head with him, and so you'd think that that would go on to be something like significant in the plot.\n47:02\nBut like no, it was just one random scene in the book that she also had sexual relations with the twin brother.\nLike maybe she was doing the Cosmo sex bucket list and it had on it had siblings, two people in the same day.\nBonus points if they're related and she's just.\n47:19\nLike a girlie who got She's got to have her list checked off.\nI thought it was going to come back and be like significant to the plot at any point.\nAnd no, just literally never mentioned again.\nSo leave me behind.\nI mean, I definitely got horny while reading it.\nSo there's there.\nI didn't get horny because of the blood scene in particular.\n47:35\nThere's just some nice, nice kink activities that I was of course in into, but you know, you could read for that and it was like I was able to do it in one night.\nSo there's that.\nBut anyways, great discussing with you SJ.\nYeah, and as we get ready for the holidays, we're about to go off for our Thanksgivings and then that's of course gonna jump us into the holiday season, which what better way to celebrate than by reading the Christmas genre of holiday smut.\n48:04\nSo taking any recommendations on your favorite?\nIt's a very broad range of.\nWe can we'll take Satan romance to you know, I own a tree farm that's going out of business and a hunk just moved into town.\nWe'll take any.\n48:20\nI am currently I I'm starting my research early.\nI'm currently reading one called Lumber Snack and it does.\nHe's got a tree farm in Maine.\nYeah, there's a lot of lot of men own tree farms and the contemporary romance.\nI know we might just do like half of the episode is just our rankings of tree themed tree.\n48:38\nIt's like, I don't even know.\nI I get stressed out when I think about somebody owning a tree farm.\nI'm like, how does the business work with that?\nAnd it takes my mind out of it, but I'll still read them.\nSo yeah.\nAbsolutely.\nAnd then maybe we'll give these aspiring lumberjacks some business, some business plan suggestions along the way.\n48:56\nIt's just some business coaching, you know, Spend less time fucking random women who stumble upon your tree farm and more time taking a class on how to do.\nSEO Yeah, exactly, Mr. Lumberman.\nWell, thank you so much for listening to everybody.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":20,"createdAt":"2025-12-02T14:24:31.282Z","updatedAt":"2025-12-02T14:24:31.282Z"},{"id":23,"title":"A Journey from Twihard to Good Girl: The Media That Made Us","slug":"A-Journey-from-Twihard-to-Good-Girl-The-Media-That-Made-Us","description":"We take a nostalgic dive and revisit our gateway smut, from early crushes on Twilight's Edward to Harry Potter's fanfic-fueled Draco and Disney's anthropomorphic foxes. We debate book-to-movie fails, our shadow daddy love origins like Han Solo and Rhett Butler, and the allure of fairy tale retellings. Minotaur romantasies get some side-eye, though we will hold off fully knocking it until Kay tries it...coming for you, Morning Glory Milking Farm. Is K-Pop demon hunters the next gen's entry to fantasy romance? We wrap with a mid-read roast of Sarah J. Maas' A Court of Silver Flames...SJ has still not come around to Nesta but Kay remains a fan.","spotifyEmbedId":"60rmPkJM1AlTx5CQqk7Vg9","releaseDate":"November 25, 2025","duration":"41 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"0:07\nWelcome to the good Girls podcast.\nToday we are delving into our early history as good girls and thinking about this question on the Internet of what was your gateway smut that that formed you into the avid smut reader that you are today?\n0:24\nAnd this is mostly a question for Kay because she's the avid smart reader, but I'm long for the ride and definitely did have my my childhood shadow daddies that can't wait to talk about with you.\nOK, starting early is the best.\nSo going to kick this off with Mary Fuck Hill.\n0:40\nYou've got 1 Draco Malfoy Harry Potter to from Harry Potter Harry Potter song recent.\nSurge of popularity.\nYeah, we give zero fucks about Harry Potter.\nWe do not want to marry, fuck or kill him.\n0:55\nDefinitely do not care about wrong he's.\nJust beige.\nYeah, I can leave Edward Cullen from Twilight series and the Beast from Duty and the Beast.\nYou pick human or beast form or changes back and forth.\nYou want to be nasty with it.\n1:15\nThis is hard because you have to block out what you know about Draco.\nI'm going only with seven books, Draco.\nThat's a totally a choice that you can make, Kay?\nIf you wanna include fanfic into your Harry Potter Canon, I'll allow it, because I think that our listers do need to know a little bit about the The Wide Universe of Draco Malfoy fanfic.\n1:38\nOK then, sorry everybody.\nI think I'm gonna marry Draco because he's smart, athletic, cunning.\nI always thought that I would do well with a Slytherin.\nThey're always thinking.\nWould you say that you're married to a Slytherin right now?\n1:56\nOh, huh.\nIt's not outside the realm of possibility that he's some crossover between a Slytherin and and a Ravenclaw.\nOh my.\nGosh, I would say the same small mistrust of.\nHufflepuff, yeah.\nNo Mr. Rash Chase 5050 Slytherin and Ravenclaw, he doesn't understand that reference 'cause I just got him to watch one Harry Potter movie 2 weeks ago.\n2:18\nBut someday he will, and he will agree.\nHe he does just a little dab of the Hufflepuff though and I would probably have sex.\nWith a big yeah, you would.\nSorry everybody, just saw my long term plague acting up there and I would kill Edward because I need to go off of like the full Edward of both book and movie combined.\n2:47\nAnd when you see how Robert Pattinson, who I would say is an intelligent person, chose to portray Edward, you really see that he must die.\nSo going into that gateway, books and movies that got us slowly over into the land of smut and all things good girls.\n3:06\nAnd we are starting early here.\nYeah, yeah, yeah.\nWhatever age it was for you that you began to feel those stirrings of of the call of the shadow Daddy.\nSo I think that for many of us, Twilight, when we read it during our teens, was the first time that like through books and through a book that you were totally OK to read as a teenager, that we felt some lust towards a character.\n3:33\nAnd I think that when I actually read Edward and Twilight, you know, he's described as being very sexy in his appearance.\nHe's described as being extremely in love with Bella, and don't we all want that?\nAnd then it's once you see it on screen that you're like, huh, this?\n3:51\nIs the great conundrum with adapting beloved books into movies is that if you have a vivid imagination, you are picturing it really well in your head and the things look whatever way does it for you?\nAnd I just feel like the specific directorial and casting decisions that they made did not do it for a lot of people.\n4:13\nI think that Robert Pattinson decided that Edward was very, very depressed and hated himself based off of all the dialogue that we see about Edward.\nAnd it was a fair decision on Robert Pattinson's part to decide this person is that.\n4:31\nBut all of the women knew.\nNo, no, no.\nHe's supposed to be sexy brooding.\nHe is not supposed to be whiny.\nYeah, yeah.\nWe don't want you emo.\nWe want you to be sexy brooding.\nAnd he decided that's not, that's not it, guys.\n4:46\nThis is literally what they're telling me to do.\nAnd, you know, I admire his accurate interpretation, but we wanted what the woman wanted.\nThat's a shadow daddy.\nThese books catch me at the end of my emo phase.\nThey also catch me coming out of my teen years, being a few years older than UK.\n5:05\nSo I also feel like they came at the wrong time.\nI am a newcomer to it.\nSo we had a very fun night the other night with another friend of ours who was a Twilight.\nTwilight Hollis.\nYeah, I think she was since the early days.\nShe was sharing a story of lived in Seattle at the time that the movie came out and did a little road trip.\n5:24\nI mean it's not that crazy to road trip to the town.\nForks.\nIs that what it's called?\nIt's a pretty unremarkable town and the movie is so bad that actually imagining anybody going out of their way to see this unremarkable town and this horrible movie is wonderful to imagine.\nI love this, but I'm just saying she was living in Seattle at the time, not like New York.\n5:43\nSo it wasn't quite the pilgrimage that it it might have been.\nSo I'm but I'm coming to it fairly new.\nSo we were watching it together with wine with snacks provided by Mr. SJ who was snack daddy that night.\nAnd so it was very fun to watch the movies with like very little pre knowledge other than cultural general things that we all know that something weird about vampires and the vampires sparkle in the sun for some unknown reason they're.\n6:11\nSo beautiful when they sparkle, we all.\nWant to Grazer is that they faithfully reproduce this exactly in the films, and that's kind of a lot of my things is I'm some of the stuff on screen that was just making me giggle.\nI thought I guess you could see that in a book where they just sort of describe it and you can picture it in your head, whatever way works for you.\n6:28\nBut you didn't see that and want a man who is glittery and sparkly for you.\nYeah, I guess that was the thing that I knew in advance.\nAnd I was wondering, you know, but it's also like.\nNot a typical like vampire lore.\nLike they did not have to be sparkly.\nThat so I feel like you could have just gone into.\nIt not the only required element of a vampire.\n6:46\nYeah.\nWell, I think that they do have to have some aversion to sunlight, but I feel like you could have had a typical aversion to sunlight.\nThe sparkling thing was a weird choice by Stephanie Meyer and by the director to so faithfully reproduce that.\nHim giving piggyback rides also something that they could have figured out a sexier.\n7:03\nRise up the tree.\nAnd I guess somebody said that that's not really in the boat.\nOne of you said that that's not really in the book anyway.\nBut the way that he like flies from place to place, even if that was in the book, you don't have to picture that.\nYeah, I'm just not versus on the screen.\nIt does look like very silly, like they just sort of did like a drag.\n7:21\nSomebody like clicked and dragged him across the screen and it's just funny.\nI, I will give a disclaimer that I do feel like it's just a thing to 1st society to shit on content that is made for women and girls and just be like, oh, it's so frivolous, it's so silly.\n7:38\nSo I wanted.\nThat content should have been chat on.\nSo I wanted to check myself and make sure that especially things that are made for teen girls.\nBut I also feel like sometimes people think that teen girls like things that are silly.\nAnd so then this movie did just make such silly.\nI won't say anything about the book because I didn't read it, but the movie made silly decisions about things that I'm like, I can't even imagine as a teenager that I would have been watching this and thought like, wow, this is great.\n8:05\nWhich you said at the time, even though you liked the books, that the movie you were laughing out loud in the theater.\nYeah IA particularly wonderful scene that was hot in the books, which was when Edward comes and rescues Bella in his Volvo and in that it felt like reading this as a teenage girl it was like this is a man he has a nice safe car he's coming to I.\n8:31\nThink as a teen I don't know what a Volvo looked like exactly, exactly like I didn't have the perception that I do now, Volvo being a thoroughly unsexy car.\nI do remember that for me, they felt like a higher end car and that was about it.\nI didn't, it took me until like my 30s, you know, like, okay, this is what a sexy car looks like versus just as safe.\n8:48\nAnd yeah, so when you actually see in the movies that he shows up in a Volvo coup and he just unnecessarily like speeds away as if this is the most badass car he is driving that Volvo as if it is a Jaguar.\nIt's distinctly unsexy.\n9:05\nI would say.\nI would say that if anybody showed up to pick you up in a Volvo coup as if they were like your getaway car, yeah.\nDo you want to go and rent a different car for this?\nParticular, Yeah, I mean, you have unlimited resources at your fingertips, Edward.\nAnd I mean, I, I guess that it's like this desire to keep her safe, right.\n9:21\nBut I don't.\nThat's not doing it for me.\nThat's like, yeah.\nOh, yeah, He also cared about the environment.\nShe was like, well, I can drive myself.\nAnd he's like, you have a pickup truck?\nMy Volvo is highly efficient with mileage.\nLook.\nAt you, Edward, just ahead of the curve on stemming climate change.\n9:38\nI love that now, unlike his character, Robert Pattinson seemed like he had a lot of regrets.\nActually, Edward seems like he has a lot of regrets too.\nSo I feel like that's another testament to the fact that they are just thoroughly bad movies is the amount that the people involved with them, you know, in the years afterward, have been like, yeah, I'm a little embarrassed.\n10:01\nAnna Kendrick, famously.\nWhy were they taking high school again like they were in high school is like 100 so.\nThis isn't this was my key question.\nThank you, Kate.\nAnd I know I was asking this throughout the movie.\nIt's like if you I mean, and he's like trapped in a in like I guess was supposed to be like an 18 year old's body, right?\n10:17\nHow long have you been 18?\nFor yeah.\nAnd so any 18 year old can look like they're 19 or it can be like, like he could have easily just been a young man, you know, doing anything but high school for 100 years.\n10:32\nSo I'm I have serious fundamental questions about Edward choosing the path that to me seems the most unhinged of all the things that he does is choosing to be in high school for 100.\nYes, and Robert Pattinson said that as well, in addition to many other things about the movie that didn't make sense.\n10:49\nSo he has made it clear that he is grateful for the fans and all that.\nJust that it was a ridiculous movie and but he had.\nTaken every opportunity possible to dunk on it, which I I kind of like and I guess as he's tried to do more serious stuff, it's probably something that you have to do.\n11:05\nBut yeah, I think on top of it is the this the stalker love aspect.\nWe were all stalker love.\nBrody.\nHe's.\nHe's not like a.\nHe's not emotionally mature.\nYeah, He's not emotionally mature.\nHe's obsessive.\nYeah.\nStalker obsessiveness.\n11:22\nYeah.\nThis smell, she smells so good like.\nYeah.\nAnd we talk about.\nYeah, exactly.\nAnd like his sex appeal tied to her seems to be very linked to the fact that he wants to eat her, kill her, drink her blood, like unhealthiness.\nYeah, there which we talk about this a lot in our adult smut that I think that you reach a certain point in maturity where there are a bunch of dudes just reply going on the Internet who are like, Oh well, yeah, you lady is like all you want and a man is these like guys who treat you like shit and you ignore all these good guys like no, we mostly most of us are mature enough that we are in like functional relationships with the good boys in our day-to-day life.\n12:02\nThese are.\nJust like fantasies, we know what we're.\nTalking about good boys just like being nice and making snacks for movie nights.\nSo we read all of our with the Shadow daddies, and there's like a very clear line between the two.\nI don't know that I love it as much for teenagers who are still forming their ideas of like, what a relationship could look like that.\n12:21\nLike you're not obsessively in love with me, therefore this is a shitty relationship.\nI feel like me as a teen and other friends in our younger years had a little bit less ability to distinguish between, oh, this is something that's sexy to read, but under no circumstances would I actually want to be with this person in his emotional immaturity and in our teen in a little muddled mess.\n12:41\nAnd I don't love media that's building that up more.\nYou know, a piece of Edward is jealousy and that he gets very jealous if if bellows with Jacob or with other people and that's follows through other books.\nAnd there's a thing out there that's like, Oh, we all want our husband to be like that's my wife, jealously protect us.\n13:00\nBut the reality is that most of us are worth like great guys who are really secure and they're like, oh, they talked to a long time for a guy today.\nWhatever.\nI don't care because I know you and I know that.\nYeah.\nAnd that, like, women have function, especially women who go out and have jobs have.\nWho is that?\n13:16\nThere's a a conservative politician who's famous for saying that he would like never be alone in a room with a woman that wasn't like in his family.\nAnd he thought of it as this like, great respect to women that he's like, oh, then my wife can like trust in me because I would never like put myself in a situation that.\n13:31\nNo, you want your wife to trust you to be in those.\nYeah, exactly.\nAnd then they were just like, well, then that ends up being hugely sexist because then you can't hire any women because then she can't be ever in a one-on-one situation with you, as you often are with your coworkers.\nAnd so that just makes you into a huge sexist piece of shit.\n13:49\nSo yeah.\nTake that.\nYeah.\nSo yeah, a lot of these things less hot as as we get older.\nHow about, and I'm asking this because I know of your deep love of the Draco and Hermione fanfic, hence my Mary Fuck kill.\n14:07\nAnd I knew you would pick Draco.\nIf we're allowed to do fanfic Draco, I feel like that's an interesting one because I don't know that Harry Potter was sexual for any of us at the time.\nYeah, his relationship with Cho Chang was unsatisfying.\nAnd then Jenny was supposed to be kind of hot, but that was never like full scenes of.\n14:26\nYeah, which I guess was fine because by the end of the books they're like seniors in high school, right?\nSo.\nYeah, it was It was age appropriate that they never got super romantic.\nBut I think one of the reasons why Draco Hermione fanfic is popular is that now a lot of us who read it when we were younger are in our 30s.\n14:42\nHe's reading other sorts of books like this, and we're like, yeah, we totally want to see what it would look like to be in a romantic adult relationship.\nAnd you know what?\nRon is never going to make it on there.\nYeah, we never have interest in Ron.\nBut Hermione was clearly the most interesting character for most womanized.\n15:01\nYeah.\nShe deserved a satisfying.\nRelationship with a with a grown ass man.\nYeah, that was not someone who never was able to get over his insecurities.\nAnd yeah, it was.\nIt's not Ron.\nI'm sorry, Ron.\nSo I think one of the reasons why Draco Hermione again is so popular is that it's this world that so many of us spent so long in when we were younger and we knew really well as younger people without an idea of like, what adult relationships would look like that.\n15:30\nNow envisioning that and kind of turning it on its head.\nLike, would Harry Potter have actually won the war by only being good and never using dark magic?\nAnd just, you know, you see the disarming spell like, you know, maybe not.\nMaybe he would have had to take out the drones at some point.\n15:47\nI.\nFeel like if we had continued the series into Harry Potter's adult years and he became kind of a shadow Dottie and had to turn a little bit to the dark side in order to learn how to defeat it, that might have been a little bit sexier than what we what we got.\n16:04\nAnd so, yeah, I agree.\nIt wasn't at all like I'm sure it was for some people, but it wasn't all for me.\nLike a sexual thing at the time, I also don't think, but it bothered me much.\nI was about the age of Harry Potter as the books were coming out.\nSo I think I was about 18 when the last one came out.\n16:20\nAnd I remember just being vaguely dissatisfied with the whole that they pair up at the end and then you have the last chapter of the book or the epilogue.\nThat's the retrospective where they're all adults.\nThey're all married.\nIt's like they don't all need to be married with a child.\nYeah.\nYeah, exactly.\n16:36\nAnd I don't think that it I was happy about the part like that seemed very natural to me in my 18 year old sense that all the books haven't ending where everybody is paired up.\nWith just like I was always unhappy from somebody.\nFrom their friend group.\nYeah, I think that I was, But I was still disappointed on behalf of Hermione.\n16:51\nI mean, I was disappointed on behalf of Hermione throughout the books.\nBut it did seem vaguely satisfying to me at the end that like, of course they all get married and have kids, and that's just the natural ending.\nAnd that it's not like what happens in real life is that you have a high school.\nYeah, they go and.\n17:08\nSomewhat.\nFoundational for you and you learn some things and then you go like date other people and mature.\nAnd every single one of you is going to end up marrying.\nSomebody not Ron Weasley, like Ron Weasley is total high school boyfriend material and non marriage material so.\nYeah, he can yearn after you for life, Hermione, but you deserve better.\n17:24\nIt doesn't have to be Draco, but.\nYeah, yeah.\nSo I'm glad that the universe, not JK Rowling, who has obviously been a huge disappointment as a human being in many ways.\nSo I'm glad that this is where the larger fanfic universe has stepped in and giving us the ending that we truly needed.\n17:41\nAnd I will need to read this for a future episode and add them to my growing body of romanticy reviews.\nYeah, and that kind of wonderful thing in a lot of different romanticy books are how parts of them are adapted from well known Disney movies, which are obviously adapted from well known fairy tales.\n18:03\nSo for example, A Court of Thrones and Roses was a Beauty and the Beast retelling of sorts.\nThough of course then she decided I'm not actually that interested in this beast called Tamlin.\nYeah, yeah, she needs a night daddy.\n18:18\nYeah.\nWhich is one reason.\nI mean, also again, Tamlin like kind of emotionally not not very grown up for being however many hundreds of years old he is, but.\nHe was relatively younger.\nHe was only 80.\nI think that really.\nShowed in what I mean, he was essentially a teenager in fairy years and I think that really showed with.\n18:38\nReally 10420?\nRatty child he was, yes.\nThrone of Class by Sarah J.\nMoss is obviously a Cinderella retelling that is like extremely 5000 times more about us and very cool.\nSo I love the retellings.\n18:55\nAlso, I love A Taste for Lies by Elsie Whitehouse, and she is an independent author and it's her debut novel and she has right there on the first page.\nFor those of us who were upset when the beast turned into a man at the end of the movie, which I kind of love, even though I've been at the time, I did experience Joy.\n19:15\nObviously I wanted him to be a man, but she's like, well, why not half man, half beast?\nWhy couldn't he retain some beastly qualities?\nYeah.\nGo to ULC White House.\nAnd back to the Sarah J.\nMoss ones, I also recognize so a lot of my favorite things, as I mean, I liked fairy tales a lot.\n19:33\nI like to read fairy tales from around the world, which then I do see pop up in a lot of the romanticy books.\nI Naomi Novak is Novak is somebody who I think they're not as like smutty of romanticy, but she draws a lot.\n19:48\nOn them.\nYeah, I mean, they're very well written, but I think that specifically, if you haven't read Uprooted, that that is the one that it has like kind of the shadow daddy character in that she like goes to this like wizard who is like way older than her and to like they.\n20:05\nAlways have to be way older stuff.\nYeah, and so she has a couple good ones where I feel like she does have this like magical the female main character and then like goes and finds this like magical shadow daddy.\nBut those are based in Eastern European folklore, which is kind of fucking different for something new.\n20:23\nAnd then I liked always the Greek mythology stuff, which I feel like is a great mind for all sorts of things.\nAnd I noticed that in the second book of 1/4 of Thorn and Roses, it is drawing on the Persephone myth, where she's the daughter of the goddess of the harvest, and she is taken by Hades to the underworld.\n20:45\nAnd then her mother, I guess they end up making a bargain on her behalf that she has to spend half of the year in the underworld with Hades as the queen of the as the queen of the underworld.\nAnd then she has to spend half of the year as up on land with her mother.\nAnd that's when her like her mom brings back spring and Persephone is the goddess of spring.\n21:05\nSo I thought, again, that was an interesting twist on it where it's actually in the underworld with the Hades type of guy.\nIt's a good place.\nIs like is the good place and that's where she's like truly happy and sexually satisfied.\nWas a pretty good turn around on that one.\nBut there's a lot of good myth ones and I think I put the neon gods one on your radar.\n21:23\nThat one is just like pure smut.\nBut obviously the Greek gods especially are ripe for.\nI was surprised that nobody did it before her because Greek gods were very slutty.\nI think that other people have done it besides, so we just have to look into it with the Greek gods and their smuttiness, because they were highly sexual in all the directions too.\n21:46\nThere was no barriers and whether it had to be strictly yeah, hetero relationships.\nOr human to human relationships you had human to God, God to cow.\nThey crossed all the.\nLines, people, deities, like they were just in there.\n22:02\nJust like one big.\nOh my gosh, there is this like milk farm book and I wish I had the right title for you all.\nLiterally the cover of it is a woman with big boobs and she's like resting on the chest of this giant like man poking farm, morning glory milking farm.\n22:22\nAnd it is what if you look up the cover, it is objectively disturbing.\nI really I and I'm sorry, I I'm sorry, romanticity reader is like it it it just is a disturbing cover.\nIt is what incels used as their point to like women read these weird books.\n22:38\nThis is what today's women want.\nThat's why they're not getting married.\nThey're all here like into like half beast fantasies.\nYou are right.\nWell, we are weird, but we're not.\nThat weird one of us is out there looking for a minotaur looking dude.\n22:54\nThey're called Minotaur with Oh yeah, he looks like a minotaur.\nThe best was reading the reviews for that book because I was curious.\nI was like, how does it have this funny reviews and a high rating and every single person was like, I started this as a joke and then all of a sudden halfway through I was like, well, I'm not stopping this book now.\n23:12\nIt's excellent.\nSo there's something to how it's described.\nI think that whoever did the cover art just miss the mark, or maybe they didn't miss the mark, but I will say that that is not what most women are referring to with.\nWhy are they milking?\n23:28\nAre they like milking the bulls for their semen?\nIs my question based on this?\nThe reviews definitely mentioned milking of bull semen so I wouldn't put it past.\nOh wait, you haven't read the book.\nNo, I don't go that far.\nSJIII read a lot of things, but that cover is not.\n23:48\nBased on the reviews, I think that you need to try.\nI think that somebody said like, how can I get my wife to read this book as a joke?\nAnd I literally said, based off the reviews, I think that you need to give it to her without a cover because she'll probably like it.\nAnd then when she sees the cover at the end of what this man was actually supposed to look like, she'll probably be a little bit like, huh, didn't how you doing that?\n24:10\nAlthough morning glory milking farm, I'm picturing this being like a cozy mystery or something based on like being on a farm.\nI don't know, this is a weird title too, but I just think that don't judge a book by it's cover OK I think.\nIt's quite the cover, it really the results.\n24:27\nMuddiest smart lovers.\nI think that it's up to you to test this book out first, because I am far too naive and new to this genre to just be like jumping into the deep end like that.\nI've definitely read like Alien books before where I didn't have the cover and the sex scenes are like extremely sexy.\n24:46\nAnd then later on when I've seen the cover, I was like, Oh my gosh, like that is not like that's obviously what the author author envisioned.\nAnd so it's right.\nAnd the sex scene was hot, but like, I did not realize that they were going to have like a full very, very different than human form.\n25:03\nThey just seemed to have extra appendages on their penis that made sex nicer.\nSo it's all about that.\nBut yeah, didn't realize how far it went.\nSo sounds good.\nIf you want me to read it, just, you know, change up the.\nOK, I'll make a new cover.\nI'll use AI to make a new cover for you and then I will.\n25:20\nMore man looking half bull, half man minotaur.\nI'm actually gonna try that after this episode and see how it goes and then we'll share if it goes well on our next episode.\nSo on the Greek mythology one, then Speaking of the fairy tales being the basis for Disney, we also had Hercules and our Greek mythology or other mythology as your basis.\n25:43\nSo who was your who is your Disney daddy?\nWas it Hercules?\nI would say no.\nHonestly, for how much that had the potential to be sexy, he kind of sucked from like Disney daddy.\nYeah, I'm going to go a little.\n26:03\nI I know this is a popular answer actually.\nAnd say, Robin Hood as a fox.\nSuper hot.\nI would probably Simba.\nLook at us both, my good girls.\nI, I, I think that Simba probably had the most formed character arc and of Disney movies that had fully fleshed out guy where we followed his growth.\n26:29\nSimba's like who we know the most about.\nOK.\nYeah, I mean, I wish that he would then turn into a man version.\nI'm not into lines themselves.\nOK, well, yeah, just be sure.\nLooks the fuckability looks alone, Yeah, I mean the.\nFox.\nI'm sure the fox turned into a man would be he.\n26:45\nWas in through opomorphic fox, so it kind of worked like he could obviously be with a a human if he wanted to.\nAlthough they're he stood up in that movie, he stood up in more clothes.\nSo I think it was fine.\nIf I had to choose a human, I think I would say Prince Eric.\nI would say Aladdin, but the fact that he had no nipples is weird for me.\n27:03\nYeah, a little hatch and a.\nLittle hat and he's best to fit him.\nYeah, there was like I have questions.\nAbout Aladdin and just his decisions that he makes when he has unlimited power and he's like, yeah, anyway, so go to Aladdin.\nBut who's your human pick from?\nDizzy?\n27:20\nI guess I'll go with Eric too, but I just want to put out there that we were left with some weak options.\nYeah, I mean, some of them didn't even have names.\nThe early Disney princesses were really just cardboard cutouts of generic white men, so.\nYeah, the Sleeping Beauty Prince.\nI can't think of what his name is.\n27:35\nPhillip.\nPhillip.\nPhillip can sing Phillip.\nOh no.\nYeah, that's about all he has going for him other than like, yeah, they're all what do you what do you call it when you.\nWell, I guess she's sleeping.\nIt's really Snow White where she appears to be dead.\n27:52\nAnd what's that called where you like dead people?\nProbably necro some.\nYeah.\nNecrophilia.\nYeah.\nSo that guy's, that guy doesn't have a name and he's a necrophiliac, so he's definitely out.\nYeah.\nOK.\nSo if it wasn't the Disney princesses, because I agree, they didn't give us a lot to work with there, who is your?\n28:08\nAnd this can be a surprising answer because I feel like for most of us, it wasn't just like the generic usual things of Edward Cullen or whatever.\nWe're supposed to have had our sexual formation.\nAnd who was your who is your original shadow daddy?\nIs that kind of like set you on the path to good girlhood?\n28:27\nSo I think it's might be off to describe him as a shadow daddy.\nThere's no shadow powers and he's not from romanticy, but Red Butler and Gone with the Wind.\nHe have all the like morally and Grey does.\n28:43\nThings are frowned upon by society, but he's technically always doing the right thing in many ways.\nYeah, he always is protecting Scarlet, but doing in the ways that actually make the most sense and put his honor to the side.\nAnd he loved his little daughter before she died.\nAnd he was a hot older man.\n29:00\nYeah, cuz he was clearly a few years older than her.\nYes, he had it going on.\nHe knew what he was doing and in bed.\nThey didn't really have bedroom scenes, but you could tell.\nYou could tell that she was a satisfied lady all right.\nYeah, there's a reason why they chose Clark Gable to play him in the movie.\n29:15\nSo I realized that the book has been pointed out as since being very problematic in many areas, that the actual character of Rhett Butler himself.\nIt was wonderful and we can scarlet in.\nAt Clark Gable, Yeah, Scarlett is kind of a brat.\n29:31\nBut I hope that he like went on, you know people have like fanfic of Scarlett and Rhett end up ending up together.\nNo, I hope that Rhett found some other really really cool, awesome non selfish person and is living a great life.\nI hope that for him too.\n29:48\nMine, based on our previous discussions will be obvious to you.\nActually I'm curious if you can guess.\nI don't think I'm going to be able to.\nOh, you will.\nYou will be not surprised when I tell you that it's Star Wars and Han Solo.\nOh.\nOK, I was not thinking of the movie world, so that makes sense.\n30:06\nYeah.\nWell, Han Solo, Harrison Ford.\nYeah, a big fan of Harrison Ford as a young person, which I can't square up against the fact that mostly I was into like the types of teen heartthrob looking guys that would be more what you would expect.\nBut did love Harrison Ford, loved the character of Han Solo Solo.\n30:26\nI feel like he kind of gets fucked over in the newest trilogy where his son turns out to, you know, Kylo Ren.\nYeah, but it's like, you didn't have to kill your dad.\nSo I'm just, no, I have.\nI'm just solid.\nNo on Kylo Ren after he kills his dad.\nSpoiler alert, you haven't seen that one yet.\n30:41\nIt's been out for a few years.\nYeah, so it's your fault.\nAt this point you should have never.\nAnd Han Solo.\nAnd in the early days of Internet fanfic, there was some great Star Wars I because I was like a huge Star Wars.\nFanfic is a really good world.\n30:57\nYeah, there is some dirty like, you know, the Millennium Falcon broke down in space.\nThey can't go into hyperspace.\nSo like, what are they to do?\nBut just have a lot of really crazy sex so they can get the hyperdrive.\nFixed.\nYeah.\nAnd so Ally Hazelwood, who is an extremely popular romance author and all of her original work was Star Wars fanfic.\n31:20\nReally.\nKylo Ren.\nYeah.\nAnd so like in her first ever book that was based off of Adam Driver's.\nCharacter the main character's name is Adam and he like only wears black even his toothbrush is black which I was like reading it for the first time not knowing that and I was like OK author likes men who like black Does Ali Hazelwood character did he kill his dad as part of his character arc Nah dad that's why not really part of that crush on Oh yeah and this is a great way for me to appreciate thinking about Kylo Ren in a sexy way in which he hasn't destroyed my favorite sexy character from.\n31:53\nThe days of yore, he is very, very sexy in the love hypothesis and there is no question about that love hypothesis.\nAgain, fanfic is awesome.\nI really do think that fanfic is under appreciated.\nIt's where a lot of great writers who have committed to full time jobs or different career trajectory trajectories, but like to write.\n32:12\nLike I feel like fanfic is an easy entrance into it because they're not completely creating the world and they feel like it's more of a hobby.\nAnd then all of a sudden you realize like, wow, this person is awesome at describing.\nYeah, Then you can kind of yeah, develop that those muscles a little bit and kind of an training way.\n32:29\nSo I do like that.\nAnd we'll have to get into some fanfic favorites on future episodes.\nAnd I was also thinking of another one that I feel like was popular when we were younger was that was about when the movies came out for Lord of the Rings, which being a nerd, I had also read the books.\n32:46\nI do feel like this is an example of where when they made the movie version they actually made everything way hotter because I don't feel like I was attracted to any of the characters reading the book like they were good books but.\nI.\nKnow but you could still like get excited about it even if Tolkien didn't want you to but then when they made the movie version and I think this is kind of like when you I've seen people mention that this is when you've know you've matured as you go from childhood love of Legolas being like the you know boy band looking Orlando Bloom to air Gorn and.\n33:23\nThe long blonde, very straight hair was never going to do it for me.\nIt's why you knew from the start that Tamlin was not.\nThe one for Tamra Long Blonde, always.\nEquals violin yeah, yeah, yeah.\nI, I, I feel like I did have that character arc where, yeah, now I look back and I'm just like, Oh yeah, he's like.\n33:41\nSister had posters of him in her bedroom.\nI think it is just that thing that's attractive when you're younger as boys who, well, men who look more boyish.\nI almost feel like that would be a little bit weird if you were into like crusty bearded men like 15 you.\nMight have a.\nProblematic things that you need to talk about.\n33:59\nBut I also feel like, yeah, it's, it's maybe then you just develop a little bit as you get older.\nI mean, so like, he's very attractive in that movie, but doesn't do it for me in quite the same way.\nI don't know if that character art continues and that like at a certain point in life, it's actually Gimli is the one that you find sexiest when you hear a certain age of just like, yeah, they're really, they're pretty soon to be dandal.\n34:22\nYeah, yes, let's read the Gandalf fanfic, which I assume is man to man on man because of Ellen.\nAnd I just feel like Gandalf would have absolutely been added with the other Wizards.\nBen and woman so ending with the Gateways month for the new generation is K pop demon hunters.\n34:43\nWhat's going to get today's generation realizing that fantasy is where it's at and they're like.\nOlder guys with other moms the other day.\nYeah, that you're like at first you're like, oh, this is like a silly movie.\nI mean, it's of all the like stuff that your kids are watching.\nI love it.\nMy 7 year old was just, along with two of her friends, the Huntrix band for Halloween.\n35:04\nAnd it's just like every like 6 to 10 year old girls seems to be very obsessed with it.\nAnd it's fine as far as kids movies go.\nOh, the music is very catchy.\nI'm getting a little sick of it.\nBut somebody did point out that.\nKeep it coming, I love it.\nYeah, somebody did point out that actually Gino, the the main character in the Saja voice who's like also also like, you know, has his complex demon history and has the little romance storyline with Rumi, He's actually like perfect entry level material for Shadow Daddy because.\n35:35\nGets you used to the guy being 1000 years older.\nYeah, yeah.\nJust like, yeah, morally Gray.\nLike where he kind of fools roomy in is in this kind of context where it's like that he can see her for who she truly is and and like doesn't have a problem with the fact that she is part demon.\n35:52\nAnd so that's like somebody that she can truly be herself with and be morally complex instead of having to just be this like good character.\nSo the fact that they also kind of meet in that morally Gray area, yeah.\nI'm interested to see when they come out with the K Pop Demon Hunters 2 which they've said they are now working on if Ginu gets to like come back because I feel like he.\n36:13\nKind of hopefully, yeah.\nI think he'll just let him sacrifice them and be gone.\nBut that or stay.\nTuned and find out.\nWell, anyway, setting our daughters and maybe our sons up for, you know, just a bright future of reading lots of smut and, you know, having these imaginary relationships with these guys that are, you know, just fun time in your head.\n36:37\nYeah.\nOld.\nAnd 9000 years old.\nAnd right before we wrap up, SJ is going to give us a halfway through a quart of Silver Flames review.\nShe is not all the way finished because she has been dragging through it.\n36:53\nI have been dragging because I feel like I'm almost halfway now and I was promised that the main reason to read this book is just because it's like the filthiest of all of Sarah J Moss's work.\nI know, but I feel like it's longer than all the other books.\n37:08\nOr at least it feels like it could have long fucking hate.\nAnd I'm waiting for her to have these like redeeming qualities, although I'm going to be suspicious of them no matter what because she's just such a tool.\nAnd she's like, oh, bad stuff happened to me.\nSo now I'm just going to like sit here and I'm like, I feel like depression is real, but it's not well written in a way that you're like, Oh my gosh.\n37:30\nLike I especially because it is this like fantasy world.\nAnd so I feel like then, yeah, I don't know, you have to like be a little bit realistic about it in the context.\nSo there has an and then seemed like a shitty.\nPerson.\nOh, there's the one where she, like, jerks him off in his pants against the wall.\n37:47\nI don't think she gave him head.\nI thought she jerked him off.\nOK.\nI said no head yet.\nAnd there was like, they were like slammed up against the wall in the.\nI think it's also.\nHallway and they make out and then she like gets kind of excited, but then she just like can't get his pants off.\nSo she just kind of like does a hand job over the pants, which I was like, I mean she for the fact that it was a hand job over the pants.\n38:10\nI thought that it was still like well written.\nI think it's Sarah J Moss's first time writing even slightly explicit sex scenes.\nLike I feel like even though Farrah and Reece had sex it was always just more like romantic and this is almost.\n38:26\nVery like missionary, yeah, vanilla kind of stuff, even though he had wings.\nSo every once in a while, it's like, she kind of, like, give him a little shivers by touching his wings.\nAnd it's really about as like, as money magical that it gets.\nSo, yeah, still waiting for more.\nI'm also just very distracted by all the, like, Rocky Balboa training scenes again, that you're in this, like, magical world.\n38:48\nAnd then that they just have, like, a lot of stuff that just basically sounds like going to the personal trainer in, like, America.\nYou're 2025.\nAnd he's like, oh, you got to make sure to stretch.\nSquats to be right.\nStephanie says to her.\nI'm like, it just feels.\nVery workouts.\n39:04\nWorking on her core, which I do appreciate that that Sarah J.\nMoss does finally bring up the joke about like the fact that they always call the woman's vagina her core and but I'm like Nesta's real dumb but she doesn't know that that's also your abdominal muscles.\nBut I don't know, it just sounds very like 2025, this world, the way that he talks to her and does the training sequences and.\n39:25\nYou're not about it.\nSeems out of place and just that he uses kind of like modern physical trainer like he'll be like, oh, we have to like make sure that you eat a lot of protein afterwards and stretch so the lactic acid doesn't build up in your muscles.\nAnd I'm like, how does Cassian know about lactic acid?\n39:43\nAnd also like y'all have magic like can he not just like banish the lactic acid with his magic?\nI don't understand this one.\nSuddenly seems like their magic is very limited when they go, when they hit the mat that suddenly then that's just like, Oh well, you just have to like do a bunch of reps and you know, increase your anaerobic threshold or.\n40:03\nShit that I'm like, that's I, I would just, if I wanted to do that, I would watch a Jane Fonda workout tape.\nSo you're you're not about it, but I think that you might eventually come around to at least giving it a 3.5 or.\nI will will let you know after I have trudged my way through to the actual smart parts.\n40:25\nWoo Hoo.\nWell, we are thankful that you are giving it a chance.\nWell, thank you for listening, everyone.\nI hope everybody appreciates that this is a little bit more of a romanticy pop culture one than our usual.\nAnd our next one might be a little bit more explicit.\n40:40\nSo heads up to everybody, thanks for listening.\nAnd as always, best way to support us is with a like or a follow.\nWe appreciate it.\nAlso, our slowly growing YouTube channel is super appreciated for our new subscribers.\nHave a good day everybody.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":19,"createdAt":"2025-11-25T13:15:02.681Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-25T15:15:18.943Z"},{"id":18,"title":"Kissing Purity Culture Goodbye: From Virgin Vows to Viral Wife-Hunting","slug":"Kissing-Purity-Culture-Goodbye-From-Virgin-Vows-to-Viral-Wife-Hunting","description":"We dive deep into Joshua Harris's infamous I Kissed Dating Goodbye, the 1997 evangelical manifesto that turned a 21-year-old's anti-dating screed into a teen purity bible. Harris went on to torch it in a wild redemption arc complete with divorce, LGBTQ+ affirmation, and chats about Skims' nipple bras. We roast the book's \"Seven Habits of Highly Defective Dating,\" including the great myth of \"saving your libido\" for explosive wedding-night fireworks. We talk on how purity culture grooms people for poor relationships and rushed shotgun weddings. We end with takedowns of 2025's Epstein email excuses (\"they're basically women!\") and a tech bro's quest for a non-monogamous baby mama who'll bear his heirs while he... explores. Is brutal honesty hot or just narcissistic? Laugh and cringe with us, it's a good time!","spotifyEmbedId":"3LRbhY32NysWPAzPehBkym","releaseDate":"November 18, 2025","duration":"56 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"Welcome to the good girls podcast today it's the only fitting to dive into a book that I actually received Christian sex Ed that really shaped purity culture dating non dating for evangelical millennials in their childhood and K just very excited to share this treasure with you today because I know evangelical culture and Catholics.\n0:27\nThey have a lot in common in terms of the end game being.\nThere to make us feel normal.\nLook, I need this little spot gaming, but we go about it in different ways and the evangelicals are just like, I feel like next level.\nYes.\nReally impressive.\nSo we're gonna start out with a with a story that this is actually like what chapter one in the book starts off with before we kind of dive into what the book was, but you know, context setting.\n0:52\nThis would be commonly a book that was given to you as like a preteen or teen in like my childhood.\nAll right, so hey, it's finally here.\nYour wedding day, the day that you have dreamed about and planned for months, A small picturesque church?\n1:12\nOr I don't know.\nDid you get married in a church, synagogue, non denominational building?\nI I can get into it, but all you actually need is the huppa.\nThere we go.\nAll right, so it's crowded with your family and friends.\nBeautiful day.\nYou are walking down the aisle in your dream dressed towards Mr. K soon to be Mr. K Joy surge in you moment that you have waited for for so long and you're about to lose your virginity that you definitely still have at this point as he just.\n1:40\nMany times over.\nHe gently takes your hand and if so, imagine you're still a virgin at this point too and turn towards the altar.\nBack of the card.\nSo then the non denominational religious leader minister begins to lead you and Mr. Kay through the vows.\n1:57\nThe unthinkable happens.\nA girl stands up in the middle of the congregation, walks rightly to the altar and takes Mr. Kay's other hand.\nAnother girl approaches and stands next to the first, followed by another.\nSoon a chain of 6 girls stands by him as he repeats his vows to you.\n2:16\nSo tears begin to well up in your eyes and you ask Mr. Kay, is this some kind of joke?\nAnd he says, I'm sorry Kay, who are these girls?\nWhat is going on?\nThey're girls from my past.\nHe answered sadly.\nKay, they don't mean anything to me now, but I've given part of my heart to each of them.\n2:34\nOh my.\nHe.\nHasn't had sex with these girls, by the way.\nHe just dated them because he's still a nice boy.\nI thought your heart was mine.\nYou say it is.\nIt is, he pleads.\nEverything that's left is yours.\nA single tier rolls down your cheek and you wake up because it was actually all a dream.\n2:54\nMy first question for you is if this actually happened, how many girls would be lined up next to Mr. K?\nThis is just dating too.\nThis isn't even sex.\nWell, there'd be, you know, some important people, like the likely escort that my father-in-law hired.\n3:10\nHe's a denial about having to.\nHimself if that Lady walked.\nUp now Mr. K loses virginity as a high schooler.\nHe's still in denial that it was an escort.\nIf you hear the story, it was definitely a hired situation.\n3:28\nThere is no woman in her 20s who seeks out a 16 year old for sex.\nThat is just not a thing.\nThis is a whole other.\nEpisode Mr. K about his childhood?\nI don't know.\nSo there be her and then college girlfriend who seems lovely and then one or two girls who are part of our group I think, or extended group.\n3:50\nSo I could probably deal with.\nA single tier might not be rolling down your cheek.\nI would be pretty interested and entertained, but I might want us all to take it to like a happy hour with, you know, $5 beers.\nThis is like what I'm very perplexed about.\n4:08\nYou know, this is just a side note because I think a lot of the messaging that I got around waiting till marriage for sex was that like, imagine how hot it's going to be that you have like been saving up all of your libido for all of these years, which is like not how that works, but you know that.\n4:28\nAnd it's like for this one like right person.\nAnd I'm like, everybody, let's just think about the first time that you had sex, especially if that person was.\nNot going to be great.\nAnd this is what?\n4:44\nI show about.\nThe romance genre, when they do have the one or more of the characters who's a virgin in the like, finally they get to the point where they like hook up and it's all happening and then it's just like very spicy.\n4:59\nAnd I'm like really?\nI mean, at least in romanticy, I guess maybe they have some excuse that it's like there's some supernatural bodies play.\nThere's this tree trunk sized.\nDick, the first time you're getting it all to fit and you're probably a little nervous and stressed, so your body's not working with you and letting you know that blood rush into the area.\n5:19\nAnd at that age have not mastered foreplay, so things might still be a little dry I.\nDo not want a male version.\nAnd I don't think that we're all like unselfconscious enough to just be like, maybe we should throw some Lube into the situation.\nSo yes, anyway, All right, So some background about this book published in 1997.\n5:41\nWould you, I guess, K, not having read this, but gotten a little bit of background, how would you sort of like summarize what the book is about if you had to tell us what you know?\nWell, I think it's pretty amazing because what I understand about it is I kissed dating goodbye and it's really about how you're even wasting time dating your wife if you think that she's going to be your wife.\n6:07\nThat's.\nOne of the problem.\nIt should all be a courtship with no even kissing, right?\nIs there kissing?\nI guess it's more so the book was, this isn't really a book intended for teens.\nSo the idea is that the book is mostly aimed at people who are too young to reasonably consider marriage.\n6:27\nWhich like, shout out to the evangelicals of that time for being so modern as to think that 16 year old girls are brides are on teen child brides are on the outs.\nSo there it does kind of get to that later in the book that he is writing it at age 21.\n6:44\nSo he's I love it when it was sure mad.\nI know it was shares his wisdom with us.\nSo he does have a chapter in there that he's like, OK, now what?\nLike I have been doing all this kissing, dating goodbye for years.\nAnd he's like, now I'm at this age where I could legitimately get married.\nAnd like, some of my friends are starting to get married, which I'm like, oh, that's OK.\n7:01\nThen.\nThen you are like courting.\nThat's when you get into like, yeah, you're courting your potential spouse.\nBut this book is really aimed at teenagers, I think.\nSo the idea is that there is no reason for you to be dating because marriage isn't a possible end game for you.\nAnd if you if you think that that person could be the one, you should just be friends with them.\n7:22\nYeah.\nSo that's.\nKind of interesting, that's a.\nGreat.\nThat's a great summary.\nAnd this I think was also kind of, there were a lot of books, talks that you could go to in that age, era and still today that are about saving sex for marriage.\n7:38\nThe big thing with this book was the avoiding dating entirely.\nAnd we will get into why Joshua Harris said this.\nSo did dating decrease in evangelical communities because of this book?\nThat is a good question.\n7:54\nI don't know the.\nCourage like did it affect how like fathers and mothers viewed their.\nIt's for my family.\nI will say that my older sister and I were not allowed to date, I think at least until a certain age.\nLike they weren't so extreme, but I think that like we.\nDidn't have to worry about it with me.\n8:11\nThey wasn't being asked.\nYeah, same.\nI was like way too busy, just like reading Star Wars books.\nBut theoretically, I like the idea that I wasn't dating at age 15 because I wasn't allowed to, because that sounds a lot better than what was actually happening.\nI also think that being the second child, by the time they got to me, if I nobody was really paying attention to what I was doing.\n8:31\nSo I could have been dating.\nBut yeah, that theoretically we are, we are not to be dating at all.\nSo I think that definitely influenced, I think my parents were part of giving this book to us.\nSo yes, yeah.\n8:47\nSo I think the most interesting thing actually about this book, and I knew a little bit that Joshua Harris, who now goes by Josh Harris, had kind of retracted a lot of what he wrote later in life, I think.\nHe tried to unpublish the book.\n9:03\nYeah, I did not understand until I started researching this episode the extent to which he retracted it.\nSo he I listened to an interview with him.\nHe talks about how he kind of like lived his life in reverse cuz he wrote this book at 21 and kind of became an evangelical city one I.\nWill never get over that 21.\n9:19\nYeah, and make sure that every 21 thing with like the youth pastor culture is that this idea that, you know, they put forward these really charismatic young people to like guide the youth who are like 3 years younger than them.\nSo he writes this book at 21, becomes the lead pastor of a mega church at 30, gets a degree in theology at 40, which is just like a very back ass words kind of way to approach things.\n9:43\nBut it's very evangelical Christianity that it's just like anybody who is charismatic and has some shit to say, telling people how to live their lives is like as.\nLong as they're like with the mission.\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\nWhich was really interesting.\nSo yeah, it's he kind of like finds his way and partially it was becoming this pastor at this mega church that he saw some of the impropriety that was happening there.\n10:06\nAnd I guess they had like maybe some sex scandals between like a pastor and a congregant or something.\nAnd he began to sort of like notes.\nRight.\nYeah, no, totally.\nHe like notes some of the stuff about how what they what he was teaching about purity culture kind of was like actually leading to just more things like unequal power dynamics and women being treated like shit and like sex if you.\n10:32\nCan suffer for noticing.\nI will.\nSay so I am going to give this guy so much credit for the fact that he belatedly, but he figured his shit out and then like took responsibility for it.\nSo he left the mega church thing kind of like was questioning, but yeah, eventually ends up leaving kind of Christianity entirely.\n10:52\nWent into like marketing for a while.\nGot a divorce from his wife.\nSo it does seem like that was a big piece of it that was causing it to question if you wrote a.\nSuccessful book at age 21 you should be in marketing.\nEven if it is a problematic book, you did a good job.\nAnd being a mega church pastor is like 80%.\n11:08\nJust good marketing to be honest.\nJoel Osteen, amazing marketer.\nYeah, just like giving the people what they want.\nSo yeah, he now podcasts as this podcast, clear and loud, a podcast about finding meaning on the other side of shifting beliefs.\n11:23\nHe kind of like went on an apology tour where he went around and like met with people who are now like in therapy and experienced trauma because of things related to.\nAnd it's, it's not like it was just this book either.\nHe was part.\nOf a larger.\nHe was part of a larger thing, but I think that he's kind of a rare case of somebody that matured a little bit was like, oh, the thing that I was participating in and contributing to was super fucked up.\n11:47\nAnd now kind of like goes around trying to undo that.\nSo, yeah, he asked publishers to stop publishing his book.\nHe became LGBTQ affirming.\nAnd he said that that was also a big piece of it because in the interview, they were asking him like, how he did that with leaving the church.\n12:03\nAnd he was like, yeah, basically that's just like a fast track out of the evangelical church is all you have to be.\nAll you have to do is say, yeah, you know, I think that like being they might not be terrible.\nAnd then like, you just get, you know, the fastest to get to the door.\nAnd I have a friend who's open who was Opus Day.\n12:20\nAnd for those of you who aren't Catholic, Opus Day is like a very intense subset of Catholicism where the people do things like wear vests that are painful so that they feel the sacrifice of Christ.\nYeah.\n12:37\nAnd he dropped out because once he had an employee who was gay and he saw that it was not a bad.\nThat they were just like a human being that wasn't hurting anybody.\nThat they.\nCould change when they were born with he's like, wait a second, what are we doing here?\nAnd dropped out and then they lost, you know, the big donations and everything.\n12:56\nSo woohoo, take that last day.\nYeah, so now he said that he views sexuality AS2 consenting adult as anything between two consenting adults that you're both enjoying.\nAnd I'm just like, what a story, what a what a growth arc for this person.\n13:13\nAnd this has also gone.\nI did listen to a little bit of his podcast, which kind of goes all over the map in terms of a lot of interviews are people who are like deconstructing purity culture, some other stuff that's just like of interest to him.\nAnd he does a couple of episodes because he's still single, where he podcasts with his friends, two of his male friends who are also single dads.\n13:35\nAnd they have a, a side podcast within his podcast called Daddy Boss Love.\nAnd I'm very proud of his journey from like teen sex hater to the episode that I listened to.\nThey were discussing the Skims hard nipple bra and like what the male equivalent of that should be if they were gonna like make a body enhancing.\n13:56\nI just felt very happy for him specifically that he had that his character arc had come fully to him.\nDiscussing Skims Hard Nipple bras.\nI guess it's just interesting.\nI'm thinking about this like no dating during high school thing because if you think about high school relationships, a lot do involve sloppy sex.\n14:21\nAnd it's like, should we say like, listen, just don't do any of that.\nJust be friends with each other because that's all you actually need.\nOr should we like respect that people, you know, as young as 13 know how to enter into a relationship with another person and explore the, you know, sexual appetites.\n14:41\nAppetites is a creepy word for sex.\nI don't.\nKnow yeah, I think that that is a kind of an interesting thing as I was reading through this there were elements of it rereading it now there were elements of it that struck me as like this isn't the worst advice in the world.\n14:59\nIf it weren't so tied up in like a larger conversation about purity stuff, this idea that it's like, Oh, well, dating can be this huge distraction because like you're dating somebody and then you just become like all wrapped up in that person.\nAnd we all know the person who.\nHas done that before, like their high school girlfriends.\n15:18\nTheir friends and so on on that on its own seems like good advice that, but I think that it's like instead of OK, let's like learn how to date in a healthy way so that you can learn how to then have other adult relationships that you take those skills that you've learned.\n15:34\nBecause I'm like, this isn't something that's unique to teenagers either.\nLike I have adult friends that, you know, when they're single.\nThat's true.\nBad sex and weird relationships continue on.\nThat like when they're dating, they like totally or that they are just like, oh, my husband is like my one and only.\n15:50\nAnd they don't have any like hobbies that they don't do with their husband.\nAnd to me that just seems like so weird.\nBut I think part of the problem with the purity culture is that there is this expectation that you are giving yourself fully to your spouse once you're married.\nAnd so it's bad to do it dating with somebody that you're not going to end up with.\n16:10\nBut the idea is not that you like learn how to be in a healthy relationship that's like balanced with all the other stuff in your life.\nThe idea is that you save yourself for this like obsessive, like closed off relationship until especially for the wife to the to the husband.\n16:26\nAnd there's a quote in his book from Elizabeth Elliott, and she's one of the predecessors that was like the one of the major books that people a little bit older than us had had read.\nAnd that was about saving yourself for marriage.\nAnd she had something that was basically like, why would a man be deserving of your single minded focus until he had promised you in marriage?\n16:50\nOK.\nYeah.\nNo thank you to that.\nBut I know I'm like why would the man be deserving of my single minded focus even at any point?\nIn my life was for married with kids.\nYeah, hobbies, like have some friends outside of your marriage, like have a healthy life.\nLike this is just like setting people.\n17:06\nAnd this is like the kind of church stuff that like, grooms girls to be in abusive relationships because you're taught to like.\nYeah, you're single minded focus.\nOn have the single minded focus when you find the one that God has intended for you.\nI guess I yeah, it's hard to say.\n17:25\nI do think that you're right.\nIt's like, how can you better prepare high school age people for solid relationships with their partner?\nAnd what does that look like?\nAnd what does it look like to make sure that they maintain themselves and their friendships even with that relationship?\n17:41\nBecause it can really crush a person if they do put too much into that relationship and then it ends.\nAnd then with sexual relationships, you know, if that is what they choose to do, a lot of high school people don't.\nBut if it is what they choose to do, how can you help give them kind of not rules but you know some like helpful things and ways to engage to.\n18:00\nTeach those skills in a safe setting.\nBut I think it's really similar to like relationship with how to like have alcohol in a responsible way if you're going to be somebody who drinks.\nAnd you definitely knew the kids whose parents were just like, like you will not touch alcohol.\n18:15\nAnd then those were the kids that like went off when they were on their own college or whatever.\nThey're just like went wild versus I think like people at least like I felt like I was in a house where if I was like, oh, what are you drinking?\nThey're like.\nI was always fine.\nYeah.\nMy parents were like, yeah, you can try this.\n18:31\nLike, there's nothing weird about it, you know that.\nThen it was like, you learned about it in this kind of supervised safe setting so that then when you get out on your own, you're like, OK, like, I have some idea of like what I like, would have loved.\nIt if my mom and dad supervised my first sexual interaction.\nYeah, exactly.\n18:46\nThey should just be like watching behind one way glass, like taking some helpful notes for you, being like don't drag your teeth.\nThat's a little too much there.\nYeah, don't drag your teeth.\nThe men don't like that.\nNo biting.\nBite it hard.\nYeah.\n19:03\nSo the context for this book, I feel like, is that it was pretty common in the circles that I grew up in.\nAnd so you can talk to people who come from an evangelical background.\nAnd I feel like a lot of us read this book curious Like what from the Catholic perspective was there like something similar?\n19:26\nDid you like have to have Christian sex Ed?\nOr is Catholic approach more like don't ask, don't tell?\nI think that we had something slightly similar where we had a lecturer come to the school and they said what could be like a better gift on your wedding day than your virginity to your husband and if some guy is telling you gift that.\n19:50\nIt's cracked up to be because it's just awkward.\nAnd if a guy is telling you that you need to put his Dick in your mouth, and this was at a high school, you know, however they said it, he made it very clear when he was talking about to tell them that, you know, like you love them, then like that guy does not love you.\n20:11\nBut I've never heard of a guy be like suck my Dick.\nThat's how you tell me you love me.\nI've.\nYou were dating the wrong guys, K.\nThis this is it.\nThis is the only way you shall love Dick.\nAnd I do remember like I kept my little pure love promise card, which was like, you know, they had to sign the back as a way to guarantee a ring.\n20:32\nWhat?\nNo purity rings?\nNo, it was like a credit card, like it fit inside your wallet.\nDo Catholics do the daddy daughter dances?\nWhere you like?\nWhere the daughters dance, dress, wear white and you're married they're.\nCute.\nThey're cute as J.\n20:49\nSome of the okay, no, no daddy daughter dances on their own.\nThose shirt cute.\nNo, these ones that I'm talking about are the girls wear white and it's like a thing where they'll have the girls like marry Jesus and they're like, oh, you're like married to Jesus or like married to your dad, like.\n21:04\nThose are weird.\nLike, I'm sorry, I don't mean to.\nUntil you're until like he gives you to another man in marriage.\nIt like really This is why I did not have my dad give me any other reasons too.\nI didn't have my dad give me away at my wedding because I'm just like, I had too much connotation for the whole background on like the things where the dads are like literally the keepers of their daughter's purity until they're given to their future husbands.\n21:29\nI think it's just, it's interesting to me how much you still see it so many places, like I see it online all the time.\nAnd I think that part of this whole rise in, you know, anti woke, all that stuff, it's somehow also coming with a like, what is sexier than a woman with 0 body count, you know, coming to you who's a great cook And like that woman being your wife.\n21:57\nLike that is the hottest possible thing that's out there compared to, you know, they're very, very against women with with bowl rings.\nIs that what it's called?\nThe ones that go around your nose.\nOh yeah, like through a septum piercing, Yeah.\nSame types of guys they are.\nThere's nothing worse than than that piercing.\n22:14\nThey're very.\nAbout getting a nose piercing and now I think I'm going to make sure that it's a septum piercing just to like signal more clearly that.\nI noticed it is a bad thing but I do wonder like how do you blow your nose and isn't it uncomfortable like when you have boogers and stuff on our next.\nEpisode We'll interview somebody with a septum piercing and find out more.\n22:32\nAs someone who was not a virgin who went into like their relationship with their has been like, was that really such a big deal at any point?\nIt was any point.\nIt was like, oh, this would be so much sexier if I was her first and she was giving me this gift of of being her first.\n22:50\nIt's like, do you know how messy the blood when somebody pops their cherry is?\nIt's it's a disaster.\nI don't know about you.\nIt looks like a gosh darn crime scene on my college dormitory blow.\nI don't think mine was that bad, but I feel like that varies a lot.\n23:05\nBut then that's like a whole thing of like some women don't bleed at all.\nAnd then it would like lead to these things and like very purity obsessed times in history and also modern day crazy people that like then there there is like a lot of discussion of like, well, was she a virgin at all?\n23:23\nBecause.\nYeah, you can just see the blood on the wedding night.\nYeah, it's like all of myths.\nMy husband personally just killed a chicken and he spilled that chicken's blood on our hotel bed so that my parents and his parents thought that I was a virgin.\nYeah, because we obviously had to show the sheets because that's a totally normal thing to do.\n23:43\nHere's my wife's vagina blood.\nHe's.\nLike I bled a little too.\nI was that's, I was definitely virgin.\nI was so virginal that I bled.\nI thought on how dry my wife's vagina was because it's her first time and she was nervous and had nothing good to expect.\nHere's my little Band-Aid amount.\n24:00\nProbably more of that.\nSo let's jump into the book.\nI'm going to take you through the chapter called The Seven Habits of Highly Defective Dating.\nSo this is kind of his thesis here on everything that's wrong with dating.\n24:16\nSo this may answer some of your questions.\nNumber one, dating leads to intimacy, but not necessarily to commitment.\nAnd I guess he says so he says.\nDid every marriage ever in existence?\nDidn't it start with dating?\n24:33\nYeah, well, court shitting, their concept of dating is just this like very selfish thing where you're just like giving in to your selfish desires and your lust.\nAnd even if you're not having a physical connection, you're just like holding yourself back the whole time.\nAnd he, like quotes this CS Lewis quote that's like friends are people who are like sharing a common mission, like going towards the same destination.\n24:54\nAnd I'm like, what?\nI don't know, Like I don't feel like feeling friends with it.\nI'm like, we have never, I've never written a mission statement with any of my friends.\nAnd like, sure, we have stuff in common, but I wouldn't say that we're like, well, not till today, which is gonna be, you know, but I'm like, I don't know.\n25:12\nI feel like my friendships are maybe more like what he says is negative about dating, where he says they usually lack a purpose or a clear destination, just serving the needs of the moment.\nAnd I'm like, I feel like friendship can be that too.\n25:28\nGiving yourself permission to like have friendships that it's like some of your friends are going to be like the people that you're friends with your whole life.\nSometimes with people you have like very similar things, like your college friends or something where it's like the four years you're together at college, you have so much in common.\nBut they're like, it's OK to just have like those friendships be what they were for that part of your life.\n25:47\nAnd just like appreciate what you took from that and what you gave to the other person.\nAnd then like, you don't have to be friends for life with everybody.\nAnd I feel like that's kind of here, that it's like friendship is this is this like purposeful thing that has to like last forever.\nBut like, it's very frivolous.\n26:04\nSo that's interesting that you say that you bring that up because I actually think it's to me.\nI've viewed a lot of people who I've dated and friendships the same way, which is that sometimes the way that my husband has described it to me is that like we're all in an orbit and sometimes your planet overlaps with another planet.\n26:22\nAnd like at that time, like you're in each other's orbit and it's very natural to become friends, like you need them and then you move on from there.\nOr, you know, but you might.\nThat doesn't mean that you might like rejoin again like you might.\nYou're still like sort of orbiting the same star, but you're kind of in different places.\n26:38\nI love that metaphor that doesn't seem to be the thought here.\nAnd then they're like people, he says.\nSo I mean, it's just like things that you can tell that it's just like a very specific idea of dating them.\nI'm like, is that what dating is?\nPeople date because they want to enjoy the emotional and even physical benefits of intimacy without the responsibility of real commitment.\n26:57\nBut I'm also like.\nDating is a commitment like dating is a commitment.\nEspecially if we're counting, I guess to me, dating, if you were to think dating is ultimate goal usually is to explore whether you want to be first exclusive with somebody.\nAnd then when you want to be exclusive, do you want to be have an official boyfriend, girlfriend?\n27:15\nAnd then if that works out well, do you want marriage where there's like layers to it and I don't need to explore each step before you can agree that like, yeah, lifelong commitment and children together is a good idea?\nSo yeah, I think in this kind of mindset, there's very little value given to dating being like a place where you just like make some mistakes and figure some shit out about like what you like.\n27:35\nAnd even whether you're having sex or not.\nThat can be also just like what you like and don't like in a relationship, how you want to be treated, speaking out for yourself, things like that.\nAnd there's very little of that, a lot of the, like, good old days things where they're like, oh, you know, back in the day, you became romantically involved only if you planned to marry.\n27:53\nA young man, spent time at a girl's house.\nFamily and friends assumed that he intended to propose to her.\nBut shifting attitudes and culture and the arrival of the automobile brought radical changes.\nAnd it's like the arrival of the automobile.\nGod help us.\nI also, you know, it is just this very conservative idea that like the good old days are something in the past and progress towards modernity is always a negative thing that brings with it bad.\n28:17\nThings happened in the good old days.\nRight.\nAnd it's just this idea.\nIt's like, oh, like, people were so happy then.\nOr people who will point to lower divorce rates in earlier times as like some kind of symbol of, like, what has gone wrong with marriage?\nWe're trapped.\nYeah, it's just like.\nYeah, there were like women who were literally married to abusers.\n28:33\nWe're.\nCheating on them so.\nYeah, there's there's no value given to what you want in a marriage beforehand.\nThere is a chapter later on that will be kind of like how you can be preparing yourself for marriage.\nYou're not dating since obviously marriage is still the end game And it's just things of like, I, I did it again.\n28:53\nIt's not like all bad because it is a lot of things that it's like, you know, basically love yourself first.\nIt doesn't exactly, but you know, it's like learn how to like be kind to people.\nLearn how to like get your financial situation in order.\nI guess I even I, there's a lot of things that I think are good on the service to me, like getting, you know, going into it in a financial situation that you are not reliant on someone.\n29:17\nAll these things like they're, they're good at the same time.\nLike if love is love and your partner is your, is your life partner, then like there's some of these things that you get through together without saying like my partner is not responsible for my happiness.\nMy partner is not responsible for me hitting like my career goals that I want, but we're like in this together and we're partners throughout it.\n29:41\nLike, I don't know, there's, there's magic in going through those things together.\nYeah, totally.\nNumber 2 is dating tends to skip the friendship stage of a relationship. one-on-one dating has the tendency to move in a guy in girl be your own friendship and towards romance too quickly.\n29:56\nAnd my note that I wrote next to this is porque no Los dos like I don't understand.\nIt seems like they're very mutually exclusive that you are like either romantic.\nAnd this is largely, I think, because the idea of romance and moving towards intimacy and evangelical culture is that men have like insatiable lust and they're like, and so like you.\n30:20\nAre the weaker sex?\nI I, I told you in like one of our earlier episodes, K, about my Christian sex Ed class where we talked about this metaphor of like a doing things together intimately with a partner was like a sled on a hill.\nAnd you know, it's like snowball effect of like once it gets going, you're not be able going to be able to stop it and you just go faster and faster.\n30:40\nSo I think it is this idea that it's like men, if given the slightest opportunity, will become lustful animals that will not stop until they have ravaged the delicate female.\nSo a different way that I I saw you are right that that is obviously you are right, but that is like the way it was written.\n30:56\nBut something that I was thinking when you said that was that apparently, and this is from a book written by UK author on UK dating.\nAnd so it could be wrong.\nIt could be just that author's perspective.\nBut she said that the idea of a first date, second date, third date is actually a very American thing that like Americans go on dates where there is such thing as a first date, second date.\n31:20\nBut in UK, it's more common that people are just getting to know each other through, you know, being college friends or work friends and hanging out and all that.\nAnd then they, you know, increasingly end up liking each other and, and, you know, hanging out with each other.\nBut it's not necessarily labeled as like a first date, second date, third date is more natural than that.\n31:41\nBut that is not what you are referring to.\nI.\nThink yeah, no.\nAnd I, I think that because I think even like this book would have said that trying to go in Group kind of situations, if your end goal is to meet somebody, then it's still problematic.\nBut yeah, because as someone that was basically the environment in which I met my husband, that we were friends for three years before we started dating, and I don't think either of us initially was like romantically interested in the I in the other.\n32:10\nLike it's not actually like terrible advice.\nIt's just like the whole context that it's like there's little bits of it that it's like, yeah, I actually did really appreciate.\nYour line promise is wrong, but it's not.\nBut it's like helpful things or, or like, yeah, you know, it's like monkeys pounding on a keyboard will eventually, like, write Shakespeare or whatever.\n32:28\nThe closing line for this one is a relationship based only on physical attraction and romantic feelings will last only as long as feelings last.\nAnd as like somebody who works hard on their marriage, and I feel like most people I know do, it's like, why don't you just like, do the work to like make sure that they're, you know, it's like, I, I just feel like I don't want to be one of those relationships where they call each other mom and dad and like to sleep in the old twin beds next.\n32:56\nYeah.\nI I still think that I would prefer to sleep in a twin bed next to my husband.\nWell, I mean, I do have a sleep divorce, but I do like sleeping in my own bed.\nBut the other parts of that I'm definitely out on.\n33:15\nBut yeah, it's just like, don't, don't we want the physical and romantic feelings to continue And like, yes, also of friendship.\nBut again, this is my question with this number 2 is Porticano Los dos.\nWhy can't you have romantic feelings and physical attraction that exists at the same time as a deep friendship?\n33:32\nWhich I also feel like I and you and all of our friend groups that I now have with their significant others #3 dating often mistakes a physical relationship for love.\nAnd I feel like this is a bit the just because lips have met doesn't mean hearts have joy.\n33:54\nGreat advice.\nYeah, I guess I wonder.\nIt's like, is it wrong to have a physical relationship without hearts touching?\nAnd if hearts meet but you didn't make sure that you are sexually compatible, is that going to work out in the long term for you?\n34:13\nYou know, people are kinky, some people are vanilla.\nLike some people are strictly kinky and some people are strictly vanilla.\nIf you don't know that ahead of time and you get into your marriage and one guy really wants this and the wife is never going to agree to that, that's just not her thing then.\n34:31\nAnd that would have been something that was nice to know, you know, a year before marrying.\nAt least you guys could both evaluate it and how much it mattered.\nI agree.\nI think this is very common for Yeah, the whole like no sex before marriage people is then you're just like really spinning the roulette wheel with like what you end up with.\n34:49\nAnd I think this idea I'd like, sure, OK, just because you are like drawn to each other physically doesn't mean that you're in love with each other.\nThe problem that I saw a lot with like friends from high school is that you don't really learn to distinguish that maybe unless you or a lot of people don't.\n35:06\nI'm sure there are people who do, but a lot of people don't learn how to distinguish that except through trial and error.\nSo what ended up happening instead of like having an unfortunate 3 week relationship where you like dated somebody that you're like, oh, that wasn't it.\nYou end up marrying somebody.\n35:21\nAnd so we had a lot of like, because there's no sex before marriage, but you're like 40 as fuck teens.\nThey just get married when they're 19 And then like, that's either game over or, you know, you're 24 and you're trying to figure out now how to, like navigate all this stuff, but, you know, post divorce.\n35:43\nYeah, there is a pro baseball player in our city who is very, very young and he got married when he made it to, you know, the the major leagues, I think maybe 2021.\nAnd you can tell just basically where he's from.\n35:59\nIt's like it's probably because that's how they could have sex with each other.\nI'm not trying to downplay their relationship.\nThat's just the reason why you would rush that at that that age.\nAnd there's just so much growth that happens in your 20s.\nAnd I'm not trying to be like lame by saying that or anything, but like, I mean.\n36:16\nI think they can also work out as as the child bride in the room like I did get married.\nI didn't mean to insult you.\nI mean, that is why I don't really tell people unless I know them well how my age when I got married because in my case it wasn't like a child bride, like, you know, shotgun wedding kind of situation or like we was the only way we can explore each other's bodies.\n36:37\nAnd I am quite happy with it.\nAnd I know other people who got married young who are.\nBut I do think that it's dangerous or that there is just like more pressure to get married sooner than you otherwise would have if sex is off the table till marriage.\nI think I was a way worse person when I was 20.\n36:53\nI mean, I don't know, I wouldn't, I don't think I was like ever bad, but I think there's like so many things that my eyes wouldn't have been open to or I would not have realized and known if I didn't have all these mishaps happened in my 20s between, you know, people.\nJust even things like I thought depression was something that was, you know, a horrible thing that you should never talk about.\n37:14\nAnd then you date some person who has depression and you learn so much more about it and it makes you like a more sympathetic person afterwards.\nThat if I had met my partner, like, you know, when I met, if if I had met my partner when I was 20, my gut tells me that we've all been still would have fallen in love with each other and ended up with each other.\n37:34\nBut I wonder, I would have just been like so much more like naive going into the relationship and had stupid beliefs that I hoped would still get resolved so naturally.\nYeah.\nAnd like I've had, I've heard it said before that it's like if you get married young, you know, it does give you the opportunity if it goes well for you to grow together and you learn those things together.\n37:52\nAnd I think that can be a great experience.\nBut it is also like a little bit riskier because you could discover who you are and find out that that is not like somebody who's compatible with the person that your partner has figured out who they are.\nBut also problematic here is God also knows we'll carry the memories of our past physical involvements into marriage, and he doesn't want us to live with guilt and regret.\n38:16\nSo God is out.\nWell, I'm sorry God, but there's not guilt and regret there, and I think that my partner is lucky that I brought all from my past physical experiences into our relationship.\nSure.\nAnd actually, it's funny, you know, our favorite book is Come as You Are.\n38:33\nAnd I was listening to some of Josh Harris's podcast and he was interviewing somebody who's like a deconstructed purity culture person, and she talked about her experience leaving that behind.\nAnd one of the Seminole books for her was reading Come As You Are.\nWoo Hoo go Emily Nagowski.\nYes, OK #4 dating often isolates a couple from other vital relationships.\n38:55\nI think we talked about this one a little again.\nLike I, I think we all agree that, Yeah, like when you know, those people who go get into a relationship and then cut off all their friendships and then you only see that friend again when after the relationship ends, I think that that's problematic.\n39:14\nBut I guess where I differ, the solution is not, well, then you should just like never date.\nThe solution is that you need to learn how to like, have that healthy balance and like dating is a great way to figure out how to do that in like a lower stakes way.\n39:30\nYeah.\nAnd I think that we've all seen the relationships where all of a sudden the person cuts off the rest of their friends.\nAnd that can be, I think, even more problematic in high school where you don't have fully formed friendships that if you like, leave everybody off, then like you're really going to, you know, be totally alone that that person leaves you.\n39:50\nI just don't know if the the answer is to not date, though.\nIt's to help teach both sides about how to have like, their own separate hobbies and activities that are distinct from that person.\n'S but I think the difference here is also the idea is that when you do meet the one that God has intended for you, like that person should be or everything.\n40:10\nAnd I feel like my friends that are more in that line of thinking are the ones much more likely to just sort of post this content that is like, my husband is my everything.\nAnd like they don't have friends that aren't like couple friends that they're like, then it's just, I mean, not to say that having a couple friends is bad or having shared hobbies is bad.\n40:30\nLike that's all great.\nBut I worry about somebody a little bit if they don't have anything outside of their husband.\nYeah.\nAnd I think like at the high school level, at the college level, you know how to make sure that this suggestions like you can still date, don't not date.\n40:48\nJust think about activities that totally are things that you're interested in outside of your of your partner that you can respectfully give yourself to and hang out with different people.\nSo you're not totally reliant on one person, which is never a good situation for you or that person.\nThis is where that quote from Elizabeth Elliott is, so I'll read that to you in full.\n41:07\nUnless a man and is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right has he to claim her exclusive attention?\nUnless she has been asked to marry him, why would a sensible woman promise any man on her exclusive attention?\nYeah, that's true at all times.\nLine your quote here Elizabeth Elliott, and help you out and just say why would a sensible woman promise any man her exclusive attention?\n41:26\nEnd of quote.\nElizabeth Elliott.\nDon't expect it from men, and don't give it to men like like men should be expected to give it to you, and men can't expect it from you.\nSo #5 is very similar.\nDating in many cases distracts the young adults from their primary responsibility of preparing for the future.\n41:41\nAnd again, I feel like at any point in your life your relationship can like Eclipse.\nCarter can be there for you.\nAnd yeah, but again, I think like where the difference is between US and the evangelicals is like, maybe you need to figure out how to do that at a younger age.\n41:58\nBut to me, I think he was just trying to have seven of them, because that's the number of completeness in the Bible.\nIt's a great number.\nYeah, so that was the same as the one before.\nDating can cause discontentment with God's single God's gift of singleness.\n42:19\nGod's gift of singleness.\nYeah, So he gives this, like, example of, like, when his little brother got a bike for his birthday and was more into the box than the bike.\nAnd he's like, I can't help but think that God's like looking at us the same way of like, why are you so obsessed with this box when you have a great bike?\n42:37\nAnd so the singleness is the bike, which is a season of your life, unmatched in its boundless opportunity for growth, learning and service.\nOK, see this is where he says things that are in themselves good, they're just said for the wrong reasons.\n42:55\nSingleness is not something to avoid or feel like you have to actively get out of, but does not mean that dating is is bad.\nYeah, yeah, I agree.\nThis is this is one that it's like, OK, you could have phrased that.\n43:13\nWe could just phrase that a different way.\nThat's like, you know what, being single is great too.\nHere's all the advantages of it.\nBut of course, that's not really also it, it seems like that's harder for them to argue because the ultimate end game is marriage.\nSo I also feel like in if you're not evangelical, then your end game doesn't have to necessarily be marriage.\n43:35\nOr you could just be like, I'm a romantic, like I have meaningful relationships, but they're not, you know, partner romantic relationships not an option here.\nSo it is a little bit more challenging to argue why singleness is important when especially as a woman, you're like sole purpose in life is to find.\n43:53\nYour man, was it not your sole purpose?\nIt was my sole purpose.\nPut AIM away messages that were something about like can't wait till I meet a person that God has had in mind for.\nMe never, because that's where Catholics are more normal than evangelicals.\n44:08\nIf you date other people before you meet the one, then you're cheating on your future spouse.\nSO I get depressed, dirty.\nHorror.\nAnd then final one, dating creates an artificial environment for evaluating another person's character.\n44:25\nIt doesn't demand a person to accurately portray his or her positive and negative characteristics, which is like first dates or like dating websites.\nMaybe you mean on a date, a person can charm his or way into somebody's heart.\nThey drive in his car, pay for everything, look great, but who cares?\n44:41\nBeing fun on a date doesn't say anyone about a person's character or ability to be a good husband or wife.\nAnd again, you could take this and find something meaningful out of it.\nThat's like, I know This is why people get frustrated with dating websites because you can just put forward all your positive characteristics and hide all your crazy, but that's kind of why dating is supposed to be more than one date.\n45:03\nOr like, I think that he's viewing this in a very limited manner too.\nThat is literally like all you do is like go on a series of things where you like go to the movie and the guy pays for your movie ticket and you sit to each other and hold hands.\nAnd that like it's not part of a larger like you just have like a relationship where you're like part of each other's lives and you like text each other about stuff you like.\n45:25\nLearn about that person's character again.\nFind out if they're like a total piece of shit who doesn't help out with things before you have committed theoretically the rest of your life to them.\nI also think, of course, people don't put their negative qualities on their dating profile because it would make you not willing to take a chance on them.\n45:42\nAnd sometimes when you take a chance on a person, you realize that negative qualities that you wouldn't have liked actually when you're talking to them and hanging out with them, hey, actually, I don't really mind that quality that much or you're worth it.\nI'll deal with that negative quality of yours if I were to put like, I don't do my dishes on their profile.\n46:00\nLike I don't need to know that we're gonna work with that.\nWe'll just get.\nThere enough it is like sort of that you are supposed to have like sort of the, you know, you get in layer by layer.\nIt's like if the first layer doesn't put you off, then you like move into the next and then you kind of get to the point where you're like, then maybe you move in together and like you haven't.\n46:17\nYou don't really realize that this is somebody who like never takes out the trash.\nThey just smash stuff down further and further waiting for somebody else to take out the trash.\nYou don't really find that out till you've like reached the layer of living with that person.\nAnd by that point, you may also have enough positive experiences with them that you're like, OK, like all of your positive characteristics outweigh the fact that you seem incapable of lifting garbage bag.\n46:39\nAnd it is just sort of like this constant discovery, but they're sort of limiting themselves from that, I guess.\nThat's like, I feel like I'm like sweatier than the average woman.\nAnd I also feel like, like I leave like glasses on the edge of counters more than I should.\nAnd those are, you know, frustrating characteristics for my partner to deal with.\n46:58\nThat you're demonstrating a lot of maturity that you are also aware of, like what your own peccadillo's are.\nThe glasses on the edge of the counter I think because I've broken many glasses and continue to do the same exact behavior.\nAll mine are super toxic.\n47:13\nI leave candles burning and wander away and go to sleep with doors unlocked in our house.\nSo yeah, I just props.\nTo Mr. SJ, front door unlocked.\nIt's happened once or twice.\nYeah, that.\nWas special yeah so props to Mr. SJ who is one of those special humans who is incapable of taking out the trash but by the time I got to the point in our relationship where I discovered he was one of those humans I also discovered that he was the type of human that is able to look past some of my crazy the.\n47:45\nDoor unlocked.\nDoors unlocked in our somewhat higher crime urban environment.\nSo, you know, I think it's just basically in summary, I feel like my critique of this is that you are denying yourself the opportunity for that more gradual level of self discovery.\n48:06\nAnd you are just like so intensely focused on this end game that you might be willing to overlook a lot of stuff that is like totally fine if it is a deal breaker for you, but you're not able to see that.\nYeah, if we could all somehow meet our person on the first round and realize that they were it and going.\n48:29\nTo God would like send us a little sky writing message saying this is the one that I have intended for you then, yeah.\nObviously like, yeah, everybody would be fine with skipping dating, but it's through dating, through different physical experiences that at me, I felt like once I found my partner, one, I wouldn't have found my partner if I didn't go through all those experiences, I guess.\n48:54\nIt God blessed the broken Rd. that led you straight to Mr. Ki.\nDo not think that God blessed it.\nGod wants no credit for the road.\nYeah, I was like, keep me out of them.\nLike happy they found each other.\n49:09\nTake your.\nName out of.\nThem nothing to do with cane bodies move me from that but like.\nScott grabbing his forehead and shaking.\nYeah, he got she did some things that she absolutely did not have to do.\nSome guys who are from the get go had their little, you know, some of the side.\n49:28\nYeah, don't go through all those things like, you know, some some people find their partner and as a child bride like you and that's wonderful.\nAnd for some of us it takes a lot longer.\nAnd if if I was just like sitting there celibating my 20, I would have landed on somebody.\n49:46\nSooner especially, yeah, like or I think that there was just this idea of the other you like have to get married by a certain age.\nSo I feel like I knew some friends also that just like kind of got married to whoever they were like with around whatever age they had decided that it was like time for them to get married.\n50:02\nSo yeah, definitely I think and I think then the other thing that we discussed is just like the obsession, the underlying purity culture a bit about all of this.\nAnd I will actually having reread this book, I think that he tries pretty hard to be gender equal about it.\nAnd he talks just as much about like men's purity being destroyed by like physical intimacy before marriage as it is for women.\n50:25\nSo I'll give, I'll give Josh here a little bit of credit, but definitely the prevailing culture is just this very different. 1 And I think I'm just commenting on this in mid November 2025.\nThe one that just came up for me is, you know, all these Epstein emails have just come out and the conservative commentary on it, a lot of it, especially because it potentially implicates a lot of people that they like, is that they're like, oh, well, you know, there weren't really girls.\n50:55\nLike they're not like 8 year olds.\nLike they were like teenagers and they're like, they knew what they were doing.\nThey were basically women of like putting all this like.\nGirls are not.\nResponsibility for what happens to you back on women, because like, women are responsible for controlling men's urges towards them.\n51:12\nAnd then in the same news cycle, we have JD Vance brushing off Nazi text messages in that young Republican group.\nThey're like saying racist Nazi stuff.\nAnd he's like, that's just what kids do.\nYeah, you have to take it seriously.\n51:28\nAge of this young Republican Group, K 24 to 35 is like the age range for this group, so.\nYeah, that's not.\nMen are just sort of like not to be held responsible or, you know, in these cases where a man's accused of rape, it's like, oh, you're potentially like ruining the rest of this, like promising young man's life and like, no conversation about like, what the rape would do to the woman.\n51:51\nSo, you know, I think it's just there is just like this very pervasiveness about purity culture in American Society that invade into a lot of conversations about just about everything.\nYes, and I've just been shocked by how much I see it again and again, just like the expectations on women.\n52:12\nYou know, women are meant to have a ton of sex with their husbands.\nHow do they not get that they're there to have a lot of sex with their husbands?\nOf course we objectify you sexually.\nYou guys objectify some of our success.\nSo it is our right to objectify you what we want and you to you know, a picture by us.\n52:30\nAnd looking for a good sugar daddy so.\nYeah, we're always in the market for a good sugar daddy.\nCan't get any of this sentence, but but to change a little bit, just talking about things that are happening on social media.\n52:47\nBen Orenstein caused a bit of a breakfast online this week by posting that he is looking for a wife or bear him several children.\nHe is in his early 40s.\nHe is successful, moderately attractive, tall, in shape.\n53:07\nHe is looking for that woman to agree to be in a non monogamous relationship.\nHe said the jury's still out on how he feels about monogamy, but.\nHe has changed that a few times, but he has made it clear that his preference is he has got a ton of shit.\n53:24\nHis preference is that both him and the wife are able to sleep around and that for him to not do that would be like telling a gay person that they're not going to be able to find a partner who's also interested in, you know, homosexual sex.\n53:40\nLike they are like it is a sexual preference type.\nAnd he will be able to find a person with that same sexual preference type.\nAnd I think that I think that I don't understand non monogamy and I need to dig more into it because my thing is that for like for my partner, I mean, I think you, you and your partner and for a lot of the rest of us, like we're not holding ourselves back from wanting to cheat on our partners.\n54:13\nIt's not like anything that we have to consciously think about or conscious decision that we're not going to go out to a bar and hit on a guy and have him like come back to our hotel room or something like that.\nLike it's just something that we're not interested in.\nAnd that it really might be some people's preference type.\n54:30\nApparently it's highly linked, like narcissism characteristic.\nSo I think it's funny that we jumped from books like I Kissed Dating Goodbye to guys posting online profiles saying that they're looking for a wife who wants to have multiple kids with them, but they're putting out there from the beginning that they're both that, that he wants a relationship where they're both OK with sleeping around.\n54:53\nAnd you know, I'm somewhere in the middle grass.\nLike white tech bro kind of mentality too, that it's just like I'm really fucking awesome and I need to make sure that like my genetic material is like copied for the future.\nBecause I looked at the dating website and it was even like you don't have to physically bear the children.\n55:10\nSo I think he's just looking for like some good genes to mix with him his and then like Co parent with him.\nBut like, I mean, I guess at least it's refresh.\nI showed it to my sister who's single and she was like, I mean, I guess I'm just kind of like it's refreshing that he's just like putting it out there.\n55:28\nAgain, like we were saying earlier about the dating websites, that's like, you know, nobody is putting out there.\nThey're crazy.\nI mean, I will give Ben credit for he is just like putting his crazy out there.\nSo, you know, she said that she was going to apply on his e-mail that he put there for a dating.\n55:47\nGuest, she meets the criteria.\nWell, it's been a great time talking with you all about, you know, just advice from a 21 year old man about how we should go about our dating lives.\nThat has an entire generation of a certain subculture of people.\n56:04\nAn odd subject culture.\nNo, just kidding.\nI don't want to knock evangelicals.\nI know that there's a lot that are wonderful, but you guys are here to make Catholics look very, very normal in comparison in my not at all OK opinion.\nSo thank you so much for listening everybody.\n56:19\nHave a great day.\nDrop us a like or a follow if you want to support us.\nIt's the best way.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":18,"createdAt":"2025-11-18T16:30:11.010Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:39:25.731Z"},{"id":17,"title":"Time-Traveling to Bad Sex Advice: Cosmo's 60 years of Hot Messes","slug":"Time-Traveling-to-Bad-Sex-Advice-Cosmos-60-years-of-Hot-Messes","description":"SJ and Kay hop into their time machine to roast and revel in Cosmopolitan magazine's evolution from Helen Gurley Brown's questionable boss-banging tips in the 1960s to today's sex bucket lists. They critique decade-spanning gems like aiming to be the \"second hottest girl in the room,\" blushing your nipples pink before bedtime, and feeding your man a saliva-soaked spaghetti strand à la Lady and the Tramp.\n\nAmid the cringe...think Jeffrey Epstein as Bachelor of the Month, advice that missionary prevents STDs, and anti-cellulite thigh massages...they spotlight timeless wins like ditching mercy sex, prioritizing communication, and embracing fantasy smut escapes. Packed with laughs, side-eyes at diet culture, and a call to craft your own sex bucket list, this episode proves Cosmo's still dishing dumb-but-delightful advice. Who needs sex ed when you've got this chaotic icon?","spotifyEmbedId":"5O8DuJMzRdwDKUFuElkz3M","releaseDate":"November 11, 2025","duration":"43 minutes","topics":["dating","sex","sex stories"],"transcript":"Welcome to the Good Girls podcast, where today we are getting in our little time machine and taking a historical time travel through the pages of Cosmo.\nWe had previously mentioned that for good Christian girls like us who weren't given access to sex Ed, that nineties, 2000s Cosmo was basically the next best thing.\n0:25\nAnd yeah, parents, you don't teach your kids about sex.\nThey're going to learn about it through porn and Cosmo.\nWe're going to go back to the 1960s, which is when it first transitioned from sort of a general interest literary magazine, which who knew?\nI guess that's why it was called Cosmopolitan for the for the well read individual.\n0:42\nAnd it got taken over our new editor in chief of Helen Gurley Brown, and she was the one who gave it.\nIt's kind of like Baba.\nYeah.\nIt's full.\nIt's a little up of a of a sexy little magazine manual for ladies.\nSo we'll start off, K, with some sex advice throughout the decades.\n1:02\nYou know, how to be a great lover.\nAnd so I'm going to give you one from each decade.\nAnd if you could choose one that you think is, you know, maybe some decent advice, which would you pick?\nSo 1960s the not the hottest girl in the room, but the second hottest girl in the room.\n1:20\nI think I like that in the 1960s there was just like 1 objective of hotness and you know, you could just rate yourself on that scale apparently.\nOK, 1970s put a little blush on your nipples before bedtime.\nI'm picturing like Marvis, Miss Marvis misses nasal where she hops out of bed like do her face before her husband gets up.\n1:39\nShe's like blushing up her nipples a little bit too.\nI mean that would have been if she was ahead of her time obviously 1980s.\nIf your ma'am looks at another guys eyes for longer than a microsecond, be suspicious.\nHe is bi and in this case cannot be in a long term relationship with you.\n1:55\nWhich, you know, my partner is a starer and so this would be a huge problem.\nMaybe he cannot.\nMaybe he is in fact bi and he cannot be in a long term relationship with me because obviously all bisexual people cannot be in long term relationships.\nI know, I feel like if we went back and just read through older Cosmo just to read about their opinions about bisexual people, that it would just be the Wild West because I feel like we really used to love shitting on bisexual people.\n2:23\nSo I feel like there there was several things that I know.\nIn the 80s is problematic and we will get to that.\nYeah.\nAnd I feel like now we're a little bit more like, yeah, we're probably all a little by and that's cool.\nSo we're.\nDoing Some of us wish that we were lesbians, but we're trash being straight, you know?\n2:40\nYeah, that's a whole other episode.\nOK, 1990s advice.\nThis one's nice and simple.\nJust roll up a little piece of spaghetti into your in your mouth and then feed it to him.\nKind of just like a single piece of spaghetti.\nYeah.\nLike a lady in the tramp, lady in the.\nTramp and you roll it up in your mouth.\n2:56\nOh my gosh, what's slightly?\nNot hot about that.\nAlternatively, I just said this one because it's the it's the epitome of 90s heroin chic is they were like, it was an article about like have him massage your thighs a bit, you know, give you a little massage to get you rubbed up.\n3:12\nBut you could really double time make it extra efficient by doing the massage with an anti Cellulite slimming type of cream for your unsightly thighs.\nI mean, what isn't to turn on about?\nCan somebody stare at her cell you like and try to get rid of it?\nYes, I would probably of these options.\n3:29\nSo there's so many good options, it's very hard to tell.\nThe advice that I would take was probably to feed him the rolled up spaghetti because I think that we would just have a fun time with it.\nIt would not be sexy, but we won't have a fun time.\nI think I would go with be the second hottest girl in the room because I can't scientifically verify this, but I'm pretty sure that was kind of my deal.\n3:50\nNever been the hottest girl in the room, but I I like that like, you know, be unassuming.\nWhat we can read the That's part of a longer thing of advice, so maybe we can discuss it in context.\nYes, I I think that if I could strive to be the second hottest girl in the room, I guess I would just put out there that sometimes maybe getting being the second hottest means that you try to be the first hottest and then somebody else upstages.\n4:13\nYeah.\nAre you talking to the other woman about what they're wearing that night?\nYeah, yeah, I don't.\nKnow who's showing up?\nI don't know how we rank this, or how scientific we need to be about it, or if it's more of a second hottest state of mind that you're aiming to achieve.\nThat's right, the second hottest stage of mind.\n4:29\nYou know, I've really had like a fifth hottest stage of mind, and now I know that's all wrong.\nSo let's start with the. 1960s Do we want to jump right in with the Being the second hottest girl in the room?\n1 From Ellen Peck's 1969 book.\n4:47\nAs long as we get to the amazing workplace advice next.\nEspecially since that is from the mother of Cosmo, Helen Gurley Brown herself.\nYeah.\nSo let's start with this book.\nSo I guess not all these are Cosmo, by the way.\nI think some of these are like other, you know, sex.\nAlan Peck's 1969 book and ironically published in 1969 How to Get a Teenage Boy and What to Do with Them When You Get Them.\n5:12\nWatch out, the Cougars are coming and I'm hoping that this was written for teenage girls.\nIs that it was written for for teenage girls.\nI think Ellen Peck needs to be a little bit more specific for our dirty later than 1969 brains.\nI'm reading it and I am going to our local high school dance.\n5:30\nI'm ready as the second fettiest.\nOK, here's what she says.\nLooking second sexiest gives you a couple of advantages, especially over the girl who looks sexiest.\nThat girl, Irene.\nWhat the fuck?\nWhy Irene, there's some sprays over here is going to look slightly out of place.\n5:46\nShe's going to make the boys feel slightly self-conscious about approaching her.\nOh, they're turned on by the way she looks all right.\nBut a guy looks at Irene and knows he if he picks tonight to make out with her, he's going to go through a lot of ribbing all next week.\nIs that a thing?\n6:01\nWould they really fear approaching her because they're worried about their friends noticing it?\nOr are they just shy and intimidated by beautiful Irene?\nYeah.\nAnd I think that the rationale doesn't make sense.\nI get that the rationale as feeling slightly self-conscious or that they're more likely to talk to, you know, 2nd to 5th hottest state of mind girls.\n6:24\nBut I don't think that a reason why is that that the ribbon all next week.\nSo, Ellen?\nAlso if you did hook up with the hottest girl in the room, like why would you care?\nYour friends are obviously giving you shit because they're just jealous that you got to hook up with the hottest girl in the room.\nIf he was able to do that, I just strongly doubt that he's the type who is also going to be fine with the ribbing and he's going to be able to confidently handle.\n6:45\nIt yeah, the confident type of man that can handle Irene.\nLike Irene doesn't need to fuck with guys that don't have the confidence to, you know, get a little light teasing.\nWe wanted the Irene so.\nAlso, this was just very 1960s dressing for the male gaze.\nI'm just like, why don't you do this however you feel confident?\n7:02\nAnd then if a guy's not into that, then he's not the one for you ladies.\nYou wear your peasant blouse or, you know, your little dress that ends like mini dress.\nYeah, that.\nI thought that was the thing in the 1960s.\nYeah.\nSo Helen Gurley Brown had some pretty awesome advice to screw your boss.\n7:21\nLiterally I in her book.\nSo she also wrote a book called Sex and the Single Girl, and she said that seducing a guy at the workplace is a marvelous time to sink into a man because while sleeping with your boss is precarious, it's actually really good for your work ethic.\n7:41\nA girl in love with her boss will knock herself out seven days a week and wish that there were more days of work.\nTough on her, but fabulous for the business.\nBut I just, I'm, I'm confused about whose side are you on, Helen?\nBecause like, I don't care about the.\n7:56\nMan, a business woman she's.\nShe's under in chief, OK, Because it's like don't, don't take your life advice from Helen.\nLike, I don't care.\nThis is the opposite of the Gen.\nZ quiet quitting and I think we all agree which is better.\nI think you can think of the Helen more as like Miranda Priestly, where she wants the woman who are like at the office.\n8:14\nShe feels like a trashy Miranda Priestly.\nYeah, not quite as well dressed, but but what definitely wants woman in the office.\nAlso, this is a very pre HR times statement to make like this is an HR nightmare Helen and just the idea that she's going to be working harder.\n8:32\nEven if capitalism is your end game here, if you're sneaking around like being like all right, like everyone's gone home.\nLike let's, you know, fuck on top of my mahogany desk.\nI feel like you have other things on your mind besides like meeting the monthly sales, quarterly, whatever goal.\n8:48\nYes, KPIs.\nWe have work wife.\nI feel like I get there to the office and the first thing I think about is my coffee date with my work wife and we take about 45 minutes and none of that involves.\nMe and my work wife, yeah, we'd like put little meetings on the calendar and we'd just book conference room so that we could eat our lunches together and talk shit about things that we didn't like.\n9:08\nAnd we were just really focused on maintaining our relationship over.\nMaybe that was secretly helping you show up to work and be excited to be there in that.\nPhysically there, yeah.\nSo maybe you didn't have to have sex with your boss to do it.\nYeah, exactly.\nGet you a work wife.\n9:25\nSo Helen, we're rating that as questionable.\nThen there's this nice Playboy article about the psychology between how women keep their legs.\nSo I was a little.\nConfused by this title when it said between how they keep their legs.\n9:40\nLike what you keep between your legs.\nSo it's like how you sit, positioning your legs.\nRight, yes, so when you're seated.\nSo if you are dangling 1 shoe while you know folding your legs, then you are a delightfully incurable flirt with a lot of cum hitherness.\n9:57\nBut men keep cool that girl does not always intend to deliver.\nNow the best way is actually for girls who are sitting with her knees 4 inches apart because they are apartment to numerous love affairs and constant sexual excitement, I.\n10:16\nMean I feel like for the 1960s if there was a woman sitting in a skirt, most likely with her knees.\nApart.\nInches apart.\nYeah, that does seem like that's some definite that's indefinite.\nAt The Playboy knows what they're talking about.\nI mean, in that one, in as much as you can read into those things, but that actually does.\n10:35\nI mean, some of these things.\nI feel like you get these stuff that it's like imagine a bird and depending on what color the bird is that they say that this is like what kind of her like what kind of bread are you presents for BuzzFeed?\nI mean, at least I feel like there's a direct correlation between especially in an era where women were taught.\n10:51\nI mean, I even feel like when I was a kid, I was still getting some energy from my grandma about how to sit like a lady.\nSo they definitely, definitely there was the messaging out there about how to sit like a lady.\nSo if you aren't doing it, it seems like that may be kind of intentional, whether you're just trying to be an independent feminist or what, I'm not sure.\n11:09\nBut I feel like also the being more independent feminist and issuing the traditions of being ladylike probably has a high correlation with also being open to multiple numerous love affairs as you prefer constant.\nSexual excitement.\nSo we're going to give Playboy sexual advice and OK grade because while problematically warded is technically accurate.\n11:34\nAnd now we're going to zoom to the 1970s, where we have this beautiful full article about easy steps a woman should take before sex.\nNow, these are in the first few weeks of sleeping with a man.\nGiven that it's 1970s, it was written a bit like this is someone who you are now married to because it's said to spend more time getting ready for bed than you do for a night out.\n12:00\nMoisturize powder.\nPut blush on your nipples.\nHell, nipples are OK with old friends.\nI didn't know what that meant.\nI didn't know if it meant like, old, you know, people who you've been sleeping with for a while.\nYeah, like once you can try, see, I think this is the 70s.\nSo this is like the sexual revolution is happening.\n12:16\nSo I think this isn't necessarily like your husband, especially from coming from Cosmo, I think that they were pretty sex positive about having sex with people that you weren't married to, especially in 1971 when this was written.\nSo I do think this is kind of like you've got your fuck buddy and now you're trying to keep his interest for a little while.\n12:34\nBut yeah, never heard anyone talk about the color of somebody's nipples as being a concern.\nI definitely like them pink.\nNice and healthy.\nThat's a That's a sign of a healthy woman right there.\nSome nice pink nipples.\nI thought that, you know, nipples were darkened so that babies could find them for breastfeeding.\n12:52\nI didn't really think about how it matters.\nPink.\nI guess they didn't have bronzer then, did they?\nI'll point you to the right colors because.\nYou don't make it better.\nI'm like, I need to figure out the right color of blush.\nI've never.\nBrushed my nipples.\nBefore, I guess I should either.\n13:08\nMake that clear.\nNever use old 90s on a new man by the best sexy 90s you can afford.\nThis totally sounds like the Barefoot Contoso being like extra virgin olive oil, the best you can afford.\nAnd then?\nYou know that in a garden doesn't use her old 90s on Jeffrey so.\n13:27\nYeah, there is definitely the best that she can afford.\nJust like her olive oil.\nWhen you just robe yourself, do it in a leisurely way where the lighting is best, in a way that puts your best features first.\nOK, this is this is getting thinking about your lighting even before the social media age.\n13:45\nI I respect this.\nEverybody's thinking about their best lighting.\nLike in 1970s like like lava lamp.\nCool, position yourself lava lamp in a color that most sets off your skin toes.\nI could see that being a quiz in 1970s.\n14:01\nCosmo is figuring out the right lava lamp to have in your boudoir to set out your your nipple color.\nBed.\nThen use like ways to hint at what you want or get the guy ready like a sketch of a beautiful nude over your couch that almost looks like you.\n14:21\nWhich I I really enjoyed the idea of picking out a nude picture that resembled me to go over the couch like in the living room.\nHopefully things like oh, like a bra.\nThey they specified not a girdle like one of your sexier bras.\n14:39\nYou can get stuck in the couch cushions.\nBe like the modern day equivalent of like having some Spanx stuck in not a girdle.\nThey're like ladies, leaving your Spanx lying around is not a turn on for him like.\nSome con underwear with like a lingering periods OK.\n14:54\nI do like for that one, the assumption of how legally suggestible men are and also that they need.\nIt's like, oh, you invited me over to your apartment for sex.\nI didn't pick up on that until I saw until my mind was put in the in the right state of mind by this.\n15:11\nI saw that I would figure the person had had sex with somebody else, not me.\nAnd like the bra, was that sloppy?\nAnd a book of exquisite erotic art left on the kitchen counter.\nNot a bedroom where it might be confused for a manual.\n15:27\nI don't see the problem.\nI don't see the decision there, but OK.\nProbably also need a manual.\nWe also enjoyed the 1970s Cosmo covers, which had things that might still be true today based off of the stuff that women like to read.\n15:43\nWhy nice guys finish last A woman's need for a man who dominates, protects, and occasionally mistreats her Oh, they've.\nBeen reading too much romance to see they're looking for a shadow daddy.\nThe 1970s person just when Satan Ryerson to treat her bad 101 ways that a man can please you if only you would tell them and that feels like probably still true.\n16:07\nToday we're all about increasing your communication in bed.\nThat's great.\nThin, thin celebrities.\nAnd that's not me saying thin twice as stutter.\nIt is thin twice because they really want to emphasize that these celebrities are skinny.\nTell their most effective crash diets.\n16:24\nMan, I am so happy that at least for an hour out of that.\nYes, like I feel like I still hear problematic stuff, but when you go back and I don't know, I just also think of like from our childhood.\nThe 90s stuff was another period that was really bad and diet culture.\nIt wasn't just Cosmo too.\n16:39\nIt was growing up for everywhere.\nWas your mom a Weight Watchers fam?\nAtkins.\nYeah, I feel like we had like Weight Watchers points cards around.\nYeah, like those like this was 1970s actually, even though I think they were made in the 80s.\nMy mom had a series of Farrah Fawcett aerobics videos which let me tell you, her outfits killed.\n16:59\nThat Farrah Fawcett go you awesome.\nMaybe it was Jane Fonda.\nI think it was Jane Fonda.\nJane Fonda, she's still looking great today.\nI remember being told that a bagel was the same as eating a loaf of bread.\nAnd it literally took me until like two or three years ago to accept that that was like completely wrong and a bagel's OK.\n17:18\nAnd even from a Judy Blume book that bananas are too carby and we shouldn't eat bananas.\nIt took me like a decade to get over by fear of bananas.\nJust making me an Oompa Loompa right away.\nThat's too hard to keep up with all the stuff that it's like, this thing is terrible for you.\n17:34\nThis one is the best thing for you in the world.\nBut if you do want to be cheered up, Google Jane Fonda Aerobics and just look at the fashion, the hair, the all of her covers are just with her, like holding one leg up to her forehead, sitting on the floor.\n17:52\nIt's just, it's art.\nGo, Jane.\nYeah.\nStill looking good today.\nOK.\nAnd then the last one on that one is Wives Runaway. 2A starting report.\nA starred Lane report.\nYeah, So wives runaway Two.\n18:08\nYes, of course.\nWives run away because they have an extreme amount of pressures put on them and no rewards.\nYeah, so not starred Lane.\nOh, I have another one.\nThis one's from the 70's.\nThe guy's definitely wearing like a combination of a smoking jacket and like a motorcycle jacket made out of red silk and she's sticking his her hands down the front of it, clearly to fondle his nipples.\n18:32\nAnd I just like that.\nThe headline in this one is Cosmo's guide to marvelous men.\nHow to know them and make them love you.\nHow to have a great lover subtitle sub or byline.\nHow to have a great lover who is also your best friend.\nHow to help make him your equal?\n18:49\nI feel like make him.\nYour how to help make him your equal?\nIs that like bringing him up to your level of awesomeness?\nOr is this the 70s where it's like bring?\nHim down help.\nHim help you be more equal.\nI don't know golf and other sports, sexual energy and how to have it touching in public, which is what they're doing on the cover.\n19:14\nHere EDA and when we focus on the 1970s, Cosmo because once it gets to 1980's the problematic beliefs come in.\nLike in 1988, Cosmo read an article saying that women had no chance of contracting HIV from sex with a man because HIV cannot be transmitted in the missionary position.\n19:39\nWhich is great because that is the only position that we have sex in.\nThat's true.\nThat's how you know you're a heterosexual when you're just having a lot of vanilla missionary.\nSex missionary never try to enter me another way than missionary.\nAnd then that is where we get the whether a man is bisexual.\n19:59\nThere's ways to detect and follow, you know, do their eyes follow other men?\nBe very cautious.\nHe's suspicious if he seems intensely interested in how other men dress.\nOccasionally heterosexual men are really interested in this, but it is not common.\n20:15\nOK, Pepper Schwartz, how do I know if my man is one of the rare hetero men who just likes to dress himself?\nYou're taking a risk, you might as well just break.\nUp in another decade we would have a name for these men and they would be metrosexual.\nWhich is also just hilarious that we had to have a whole special term for men that could just complete basic.\n20:36\nGreen task stress and like show.\nInterest in their clothing.\nAnd be on the lookout for any signs that your man is flirting with another man.\nThe boy boy signals are the same as a boy girl signals, lingering glances, a second look moving closer to one another, and increased animation in each other's presence.\n20:54\nWhich makes me laugh because like a lot of men, yeah, get pretty excited in each other's presence.\nYeah, yeah.\nAnd like, we have talked so much about how we want to just uplift male friendship, like just let the boys be boys more and have their little friendships together.\n21:11\nAnd I feel like it's fucking advice like this that's really making it hard for them.\nThey're just like.\nLook at his eyes like more than a microsecond.\nI'd like enjoy hanging out with my friend but no homo man.\nLike I don't want to make eye contact with you that he's super gay.\nAnd to tie up the 1980s from Cosmo Jeffrey Epstein as Cosmos, Bachelor of the Month, a financial strategist, Jeffrey Epstein, age 27, talks only to people who make over a million a year.\n21:43\nWhat a catch.\nNot true if you're a cute Texas girl, right?\nThen write this New York Dynamo at 55 Water St. 49th floor, New York City 10041 And by cute Texas girl he literally means girl girl girl.\n22:01\nIf you are a woman, please do not apply if.\nYou're 16.\nHe would love to hear from you and or drug you.\nYeah.\nEven an attractive picture.\nThere was no change over time.\nYeah.\nYeah, he really just had to be rich to get anybody to pay attention to him.\n22:18\nSo the 1990s got a little bit better.\nWell, we got a little.\nWell, these are some funny ones.\nYeah, I don't know.\nI mean, the 90s were a weird time.\nThis is more of just like a lightning round rundown.\nSo we got Ouija stroke, the squeegee stroke.\nYou given your man a hand job.\n22:35\nAnd I don't know, you're just thinking of it.\nThis sounds like squeezing tube out of a toothpaste.\nOut of a tube video but I am watching just like a hand job happen right now.\nJust making confused.\nHand job motions.\nI'm not really sure what that means or if that visualization would be helpful for people so.\n22:53\nThere is no spray bottle involved in the squeegee stroke.\nIt is.\nLiterally just I think that there not that I saw, but I honestly think that that was only because the author lacked creativity and vision.\nK and I also think we should probably each try one of these to take home.\n23:10\nAnd I got the squeegee stroke for me.\nNo, I'm not.\nEven your lack of interest in it makes me want you.\nTry to make it enjoyable all the more.\nSqueegees.\nJust think.\nI think they're a blue spray gonna show up at the end.\nThe real spaghetti, which we talked about.\n23:28\nPretend you're a sports.\nFaster.\nSo I think this is like calling a play by play of your encounter with the man.\nI would only like this if you were using it to nag him and you're like oh and that is disappointing performance from.\n23:46\nRookie, He was so close, but he was just a millimeter too far from where he.\nHad been right.\nYeah, right, right to the left of the goal posts.\nThe coach is mad.\nAt the sidelines, the coach strictly told him to keep going exactly at that pace and he adjusted.\n24:03\nWe know he's going to be back to free agent status next year at the rate this game is going.\nI honestly, I love this one, especially if you're just going to make your partner feel terrible, which I assume a lot of this is.\nWe have the massage your inner thighs with give a little sensual massage, you know, for for good measure, add in the anti Cellulite cream.\n24:22\nClassic 90s advice.\nLet's make everybody feel shitty about themselves, yeah?\nYeah, I've noticed some Cellulite on your thighs.\nIt's just.\nLike being like here I got you that gym membership that it appears that you need for your for your Christmas present.\nTickle thighs with flower petals.\n24:40\nI feel like this is very classic Cosmo advice, that it's just kind of like they're just have a bowl of fishbowl full of random objects and then like are like dice or something.\nYeah, they have like dice or something where it's like tickle his guys with a.\nFlower.\n24:55\nPetal that is just, you know, endless advice.\nI think I mentioned earlier, I remember one that I read in childhood that was the hot cold where you like put ice cubes in your mouth and then go down on him.\nAnd it's just like a lot of things like that where they're like, look around you.\n25:11\nAny random object, any object can be a sexual.\nJust try sticking it in your mouth or up his butt or.\nBut they don't have to be.\nYou can also just keep the objects separate.\nEspecially the people who worked in emergency rooms.\nI hear the whole like you don't want to test with objects up the butt that weren't designed to come back out.\n25:29\nYou know, like there's stories like the vibrators can get stuck up the rectum.\nOh, so even things that are designed for sex play get stuck in there.\nThe last thing you want to do on your anniversary, Suri is have a, you know, a vibrator in the on position stuck somewhere in your bowels because it just travelled up there.\n25:51\nAre you seeing this happen?\nThey did not happen to me personally.\nI saw your name.\nI did not I did not have a vibrator stuck at my colon personally.\nBut it these are true stories.\nThat would actually be a good little mini episode wrap up or something.\n26:09\nThat would be just favorite emergency.\nGetting stuck.\nMy gosh.\nObjects getting stuck up the rectum a whole thing.\nGotta be careful about that.\nIf you like ass play, be careful.\nYeah, yeah.\nUse something to the solid grip that you count.\n26:28\nSo this was avoid things that might accidentally trigger your sex drive.\nYou know, misdressed male answering wrong numbers and a gentle grocery cart collision.\nI'm not sure if this one was meant to be ironic, but also this kind of sounds like the thing that like men that are so horny that like somebody accidentally brushes against their crotch and they're just like cum in their pants.\n26:49\nIt's like if you are turned on by a random grocery cart collision.\nI, I recently thought that this was like the opposite.\nI thought this was like things that might bring your sex drive down, like extra male.\nNo, you're right.\nLike the serious things that would pique your interest and then just like give you a little boner or something.\n27:07\nBut I'm like, that's a very male.\nBased list and.\nLike I don't think the problem is that, but you shouldn't let yourself get excited.\nI think the problem is if you're excited by like that random of stuff, you should probably just masturbate.\nYeah, you probably need to release and.\nThis was the 90s.\n27:23\nYou were OK with masturbation by then.\nWe were talking about it.\nSo the wetter your kiss, the more saliva is exchanged.\nAnd you want the more saliva?\nI mean, I don't really mind it as like something that just needs.\nI mean, it's if it's it's there, it's fine, but I feel like if somebody was like a sloppy dog.\n27:39\nI'm not licking your face like I.\nYeah, especially because like when it's when your mouths are locked together, it's fine.\nBut like, have you ever like smelled if somebody like licks your hand or something like the smell of saliva like actually doesn't smell good so.\n27:55\nThis is seek out.\nI mean, we we don't have to try to like eliminate entirely, but that's a weird one.\nI still.\nThink about the person from our questionable sex advice episode where they said that all that was left after the husband was going done going down on them was his saliva.\n28:13\nLike none of her wetness.\nAnd that seems like such a bad smell to me.\nJust saliva.\nLike not no, you know, yeah, just.\nJust so just some kind of infection waiting to happen too without your own like natural.\nVagina with just a bunch of spit on it, like, no, thank you.\n28:32\nPretend his nipples are a chocolate ice cream cone.\nI mean, I feel like if that's helpful for you, that seems like very innate.\nNice thing.\nYeah.\nAdvice.\nIt's very basic.\nSo that helps.\nZooming in to what's on in Cosmo today, I thought that there is like, some interesting articles and I don't know why it feels like a lot of them were on cheating.\n28:58\nLike, there was one on Home wrecker Kings.\nWomen say that a guy risking it all for them was hot.\nBut like, by risking it all, they mean like, their wife and kids.\nLike, yeah, like, they're a household.\nI'm a little suspicious now because I just feel like there's kind of like a click bait nature to everything.\n29:19\nAnd also like, it used to be that there was like, you know, a few of these like racier types of publications.\nAnd nowadays, I mean, anybody can look at these two idiots.\nAny 2 idiots can like have a podcast or a blog or publish something on the Internet.\nSo I feel like they have to get more ostentatious to to be able to get people to pay attention and they're just like throwing stuff out there.\n29:42\nSo home wrecker kinks may be a thing.\nMaybe just a way to get us to click on the article and.\nPerson in the world who has a home wrecker kink.\nEthical non non monogamy was a big thing I learned.\nOK so you already knew about it.\nSo that is when you are in an open relationship, but it is with transparent to boundaries.\n30:03\nAnd so it's considered ethical while being monogamous.\nAnd so is ENM and people put it on their dating profiles.\nYeah, there are.\nLike sites that are specifically for that.\nAnd I feel like this is just a much more common thing.\nI think I saw some statistic, but they're like, oh, the number of people out there who are polyamorous is like actually a lot more than you would think.\n30:24\nBut a lot of people are just more transparent about it or having relationships where like one person has a hall pass but the other doesn't.\nIf that's what they agree or they both do or like you know, they're so like as long as you're communicating about it, then find something that works for you.\n30:40\nYes, and then there was one on why women like fantasy smut, which of course I.\nAppreciate the verbal podcast.\nIt hit on all the reasons why, too.\nIt was like, yes, we like fantasy smut because I don't want to like read about somebody going into their nine to five job and middle management or I don't wanna read about them being a CEO and Boston people around.\n31:00\nYeah, or like A19A troubling 1960s kind of scenario where the woman is having an affair with her boss to help increase the quarterly numbers.\nDon't wanna read it?\nYeah, it's just.\nYou don't read it.\nStressed out?\nYeah.\nWould rather that there's just a completely different world happening.\n31:16\nWomen leaving their husbands to explore their sexuality is more common than you think, was an article.\nI say I feel like I do know and hear more people who are not just staying versus like the night, the early days of Cosmo or even if your husband's abusing you, you are not to leave him versus now there's just a lot more, Hey, if you're not happy, then sure, there's a lot more, you know, openness about that.\n31:40\nI think so.\nOK, I don't know that that's like groundbreaking journalism, but.\nGet up the sex bucket list.\nSo the sex bucket list was interesting because, and this was something that they say that like all of us should have a sex bucket list keeps things on.\n31:59\nThe funny thing is that it started out so tame.\nLike put on a show, you know, like do a strip dance or something.\nOK, That's, you know, not that much.\nYou're in a sexy book club.\nOK, again, like I already talked about my, my smut with everybody.\n32:14\nAnd then all of a sudden it goes to like wear an animal tail butt plug, you know, like you can try like a Unicorn pet butt plug.\nAnd that felt like, OK, now I'm going into somewhere different that's a little more interesting, but weirder.\n32:31\nAnd I'm not, I'm not saying that in a judgmental way, but you know, objectively, I think if you knew that somebody had a like a Unicorn or a foxtail butt plug, you'd probably be like, huh, I didn't expect that.\nIt is taking it is taking the bucket list to a new level, which I guess maybe it's like a.\n32:48\nIs it like by ascending complexity?\nAnd I guess if it's a bucket list, you know you have to have some stuff on there for all for all types and.\nFlavors would love to see what my how my partner would react if I showed up with a Unicorn butt plug.\n33:04\nI would love for you to make your own sex bucket list.\nOK, And that can be the topic of a future episode and you can report back on what fun new fashions you've tried out touches Unicorn butt plugs.\nAnd then there's sleep with two people in one day.\n33:21\nAnd I again, I just thought that this was something that needed a little bit more explanation.\nYou're doing it just for the sake of sleeping with two people in one day does just seem like gratuitous, like, yeah, they just, like, needed more things to put on there.\nAnd but that was like very, very early up in the bucket list.\n33:37\nLike it was it was something the person wanted seen.\nAnd it was like, consider indulging in the rush of power and Eroticism that comes with sleeping with two different people in one day.\nIt's like, well, was that all right with the second?\nYeah, I, I is there's.\nJust, yeah, I don't know.\nI mean, it seems like one of those things that if that happens to occur based on how your life turns out, that like, obviously there's no issue with that, but it seems to seek that out specifically be like, all right, now time to go find some other random person so that I can check off.\n34:06\nAnd it's like you're just my check box for second second lay of the day.\nWell again, this is a 110 list and these are.\nIf you are going to come up with 110 things, you're.\nGoing to start.\nNo, no, I'm more just like laughing at how quickly they got to.\nSo 12 is have a threesome, 13 is have a female female threesome, 14 is have a male male freeze threesome, and then 15 is explorer double penetration.\n34:33\nIt's like, OK, that is like a major, you know, that's, that's like 4 whole spots dedicated to threesomes and we haven't even gotten to #20 yet.\nAnd so maybe.\nThey're not in ascending order of.\nGravity idea and then it's like enjoy a round of sensual foot massages it's like you can't go from like double penetration to foot massages the.\n34:58\nFoot massage just isn't gonna hit the same after you've experienced the double penetration.\nI have sex in a pool table like this is these are like very you know as long as you have access to a pool table and some of the house like you could theoretically.\nThis is where you get the Airbnb with the pool table just to check that off or your.\n35:16\nBasement, you know.\nThat's true, we do have one in my basement.\nAnyone looking to check off number, whatever that is on your sex Cosmos X bucket list just let me know.\nI got a nice 1970s pool table in my basement.\nMasturbate using the only Netflix shows.\n35:32\nI kind of felt weird about that cuz I felt like the actors and actresses don't make them to be like masturbated to.\nBut yeah, but I mean, nobody, I feel like that is not something that you need to consent to as being in somebody's spank bank.\nBecause I did have somebody I although I will say like maybe keep it to yourself.\n35:50\nBut I did have that somebody once that I had like known a while back and then like saw in a social setting and then proceeded to get really drunk and tell me that I was somebody that he frequently thought of while masturbating.\nAnd I was like.\nWere you like, honored?\n36:07\nI don't know.\nI don't even know how.\nA little.\nBit especially because like he was a very like nerdy.\nI feel like if he had had like predator vibes, but he was just like a wholesome nerdy person who got really drunk and and I felt like I had been kind of mean to him in the past.\nSo I was like, oh, I'm glad that he didn't like break you down or anything.\n36:26\nAlthough maybe he does just like I've just been taking mysteries dating advice and actually like by yanking him he was like I just like have to masturbate to the thought of that.\nBut you know, I feel like I've seen that a lot that like men.\n36:42\nI mean, I see it in books enough that it must be a thing that men are like, oh, I thought of you while masturbating.\nLike my partner said that before.\nBut I think that's interesting because like not to be.\nI do not think of any particular guy.\nYeah.\n36:59\nOr if you do, you're thinking of Reese.\nAnd yeah, we like, we like to think of imaginary men that have penises the size of Redwood tree trunks.\nSo sorry men.\nYeah, I I mean, but I'm like.\nSimilarly, I'm also not offended if even my partner was like, I mean, that's like nice, if you're like, Oh, I thought of you while masturbating, like certainly that's a nice compliment.\n37:18\nBut if, if I if I was like, oh, what are you thinking of when you masturbate?\nAnd they were like, oh, like this really like hot thing that I saw in a porn.\nI'd be like OK that makes sense.\nYeah, that's what porn is worth.\nYeah, maybe maybe I'll should start lying and being like I was just thinking about you and you only, but normally like if you say.\n37:37\nThings that you just like, want him to do more of.\nI would be like, I was just thinking of you like making breakfast on Sunday, and that was like, so fucking hot.\nYeah.\nPancakes.\nJust lots of butter drinking all down your body.\nIf anything, it's like a, it's like a joke between us because I'll be, you know, reading one of my books and then I'll be like, want to have sex.\n37:58\nAnd he's like, oh, was one of your books making you horny?\nAnd I'm like, oh, no, I was just thinking about you, baby.\nAnd like.\nWe both start laughing, lathering butter all over yourself chocolate ice cream nipples with blush on them.\nI was just.\nThinking about you making a mess in the kitchen.\n38:14\nAnd not cleaning it up.\nI could rarely.\nDo.\nWithout me asking a few times.\nAll right, so maybe wrap it up.\nWe've got some classic Cosmo tips that might have aged.\nOK.\nThis to me fairy is a list from Cosmo.\n38:31\nDon't worry if he takes a long time to climax.\nThe problem lies in his humanity, not your lack of femininity.\nI feel like that's not my concern is that I'm not attractive to him.\nI feel like it's just like you get, it's kind of, I'm like, all right, like you hurry up and do your thing.\n38:49\nWe find anything we're like really need to work to prolong it so especially.\nIf you're doing something like a blowjob, because it's just like, I don't know, I'm a former TMJ sufferer.\nSo like my jog, it's real sore after a while.\nI'm like, you got to wrap this up.\nDo it.\n39:08\nOK?\nWhen to say no?\nUnless you feel an overwhelming urge to jump on someone, say no.\nAvoid Mercy fucking, as he'll probably come back for more.\nSex is no way to say goodnight or thanks.\nAll right, Mercy.\nMercy.\nFucking is such a weird way to put it.\nI agree, like only do it if you want to do it, not because you feel bad for somebody.\n39:25\nThat's a nice one.\nDon't believe anyone who says you can't orgasm.\nDon't believe that the woman just can't come during intercourse, So check it out.\nAsk your man to stop his thrusting and see if your activity really mirrors his, or whether you prefer a different pace of your own.\n39:42\nYes, I love that.\nAnd you're allowed to not enjoy.\nABJI will say that it's just one of those things where it's almost like being told to do the laundry, whether like versus you decide to do the laundry.\nLike when I am in the mood and I want that, I want to give that.\nIt's like so hot.\n39:59\nBut if I am like asked for it, I'm like how dare you request that of doing?\nYeah, yeah, I agree.\nA lot of things like that.\nThey're also wondering if it's about the what to do with the ejaculate itself.\nCome on, my titties instead.\n40:15\nYeah, exactly.\nI think we can all take a lesson from Kay's partner and the man can just, you know, finish up, go run into a corner when he says go whatever.\nAll right, The most crucial the next one is the key to better sex is talking.\nYou know, how what how you want to orgasm, what you want.\n40:33\nSo, so just taking lots of time experimenting and not just focusing on counting climaxes, that seems like a very, that seems like a nice one.\nAnd the next one is kind of similarly about just like not just focusing on the orgasm, but just enjoying the whole experience.\n40:54\nAnd I like it.\nIt says, you know, masturbate to orgasm before having intercourse or you know better if possible.\nAnd this is like how it should, you know, let your lover masturbate you, But I don't know.\nIf Carl, that's not masturbation.\nWhat year is this one?\nFrom make sure that you're your lover and taking care of you.\n41:10\nAnd she comes for again, comes back to our favorite book that I haven't read.\nShe comes first.\nJust let him take care of you first.\nAnd then he can, you know, thrust away all right, when he wants, when he doesn't want sex but you do.\nI like that.\nOld Cosmo recognized that this was a possibility.\n41:26\nDon't let it degenerate into a mechanical routine.\nIf you normally Make Love at home, plan a rendezvous after work in a plush hotel, Make Love in a taxi in a haystack.\nWhatever turns you on.\nI have maybe not those ones, but.\nI don't love that.\nI mean only because I just feel the taxi.\n41:43\nDriver Like who's the poor guy who has to clean out the backseat of his taxi act where is?\nHis haystack.\nYeah, this is like how I feel about sex on the beach.\nLike.\nI don't want to have sex.\nTheory.\nI don't want sand all in there, no.\nAnd probably not really in the rain either.\n42:00\nI mean, I understand the idea.\nMaybe for like a warm tropical rain and I had like a really nice spot for it that didn't have because then tropical you're talking about insects etcetera.\nThis seems difficult in practice, but I I like the creativity aspect.\nI like the idea of like, if he wants and then you don't think of how you can make it hot.\n42:18\nI think that there are realities of, you know, you're not going to just make a reservation at a super nice hotel just for it that the snack zone maybe do something different with the bedroom that day.\nI don't know.\nYeah.\nPutting or read some smut, I'll get you right in the mood OK?\n42:38\nPutting the lust back into your loving 15 minutes of foreplay.\nThe average for married couples is not enough.\nSkin is our largest organ and it needs a lot of stimulation to come fully alive.\nCentral massage, perhaps with an edible oil or lotion.\nYeah, I suggested and how you like.\n42:57\nDouble dose, you know, make yourself nice and slim looking while also getting turned on.\nA blindfold can add another dimension to lovemaking.\nYour familiar partner seems like someone new when you explore him by touch, sound and smell and taste.\nAnd knowing he can't see you gives you permission to be much Wilder.\n43:18\nThank you Cosmo for these suggestions.\nLooking forward to hearing any other Cosmo sex tips.\nI don't know.\nOK, anything you're going to, you're going to take home and try out after this.\nDefinitely just the single spaghetti noodle between the mouths.\nThat one seems great.\n43:33\nKeep an eye out because my gosh, I can't be married to a bisexual man.\nBased on this advice, you may be married to a bisexual man.\nBecause my because my partner animates among other men, I might indeed be married.\nHe has male friends with whom he enjoys spending time.\n43:51\nHe makes eye contact for longer than a microsecond with other males.\nMaybe go back in time so I can hook up with Jeffrey Epstein.\nYou know, just a lot to take into consideration here.\nWell, it was great going through these with you, SJ.\n44:06\nAnd thank you everybody for listening.\nHope you have a great day.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":17,"createdAt":"2025-11-11T13:25:38.956Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:05:06.671Z"},{"id":16,"title":"Cortisol Cockblocks: Why Sex and Stress Are Eternal Frenemies","slug":"Cortisol-Cockblocks-Why-Sex-and-Stress-Are-Eternal-Frenemies","description":"Hosts SJ and Kay dive into the stressful intersection of anxiety and arousal, inspired by Emily Nagoski's game-changing book Come As You Are. They kick things off with asking: Would you rather hook up right before a big race, a killer exam, or amid bedtime chaos with the kids? Spoiler: Probably none because stress can make for some lame sex. They break down the stress response cycle, why cortisol is nature's cockblock, and share science-backed hacks like 20-second hugs and dance breaks to \"complete the cycle.\" From Good Girls Research Division, they roast an awkward 2010 study involving vaginal probes and '90s erotica. Plus, SJ shares her unfiltered hot takes on the third book in Sarah J. Maas's A Court of Thorns and Roses series—think vanilla fairy sex, power imbalances, and a plea for more queer fae foursomes. Whether you're avoiding dishes or daydreaming of magical mates, tune in for laughs and validation.","spotifyEmbedId":"13IT9C2uBGdfZkCz7gJw8L","releaseDate":"November 4, 2025","duration":"33 minutes","topics":["sexuality","wellness","communication","humor","intimacy"],"transcript":"SJ (00:01.038)\nWelcome to the Good Girls podcast where we are too blessed to be stressed or too stressed to be sexy maybe on this episode. We're going to discuss and find out. Probably too stressed to be blessed.\n\nKay (00:10.254)\nSomething like that.\n\nKay (00:18.1)\nSo on this episode of stress and sex, I want to start off with a question. I'm going to give three different situations. And you say if you kind of, of sorts, and you say which one you think that you would be up for having sex immediately after maybe during maybe at the exact scene. Okay, so\n\nSJ (00:27.438)\nAnd you say... You're gonna marry fucker kill?\n\nSJ (00:41.422)\nGot it. Okay.\n\nI'm going to need your answers because I feel like you're going to be much more down to have sex in any of the situations than I am. But that's our whole dynamic. Continue. I'm like any amount of stress, my body shuts down. I'm like, nope, let's wait a week.\n\nKay (00:58.51)\nSo scenario one, you are just about to do a five minute race, a five minute rowing contest, let's say, where speed matters. And then they say, actually, weather, we have a 30 minute delay. And your partner shows up and is like, let's have sex during this 30 minute delay. Keep you nice and at home. And this five minute time.\n\nSJ (01:18.7)\nRawr.\n\nkeep you nice and at home.\n\nKay (01:25.422)\nDistance challenge, matters a lot. It is college qualifying whether or not you can be able to row that. The next one is right before a major exam. Same situation. You're about to sit down, unload all your knowledge. For me, the exam would be a nursing licensure exam. For others, it might be SATs, ACTs, if we're talking 18. But if there is no exam where you're sitting down, you're about to unload knowledge.\n\nSJ (01:25.942)\nIt is a\n\nOkay, okay.\n\nSJ (01:42.286)\nSee you in the exam.\n\nthat might be SATs, ACTs if we're talking about 18. But here is the examiner speaking on your own notes.\n\nKay (01:53.824)\nAnd then the third one is just stress in terms of like you have two different kids asking you for things. You have a bunch of dishes in the sink and it's also past bedtime and you haven't gotten the kids down to bed yet. And your partner is like, hey, actually let's take 10 minutes here.\n\nSJ (01:55.764)\nis just.\n\nSJ (02:02.19)\nyou are things, are bunch of dishes, and it's also a past bedtime.\n\nHey, actually, let's take 10 minutes. Let's just, yeah, stash the kids in the basement. Okay, so that is my least likely one, which I also feel like is the problem for many moms because your life is just like that most of the time. And I also feel like that's that just like ambient kind of stress thing, right? Where it's just like there's stuff all around you and we'll get into it, but it's like, that's the stress where you don't get to like complete the stress response cycle. So you just like have these stressors that are buzzing around you all the time.\n\nand you don't really feel any sense of completion or moving on to the next thing. So that one's my least likely. Then I would say the one before that's my next least likely because the test, I'd be like, want to be mentally focused and not take my mind off of it. I could see with the physical competition though that you've got all this pent up energy. And I haven't read the research on this.\n\nKay (03:03.889)\nAdrenaline, your heart's racing, yeah.\n\nSJ (03:05.934)\nYeah, but I have to feel like that that's actually something where that could help like loosen you up a little bit if you just had like the time to kill and you have like all this pent up energy, it would not be healthy. How long did you say the delay was like 30 minutes? It would not be healthy. There's like a there's yeah.\n\nKay (03:18.286)\n30 minutes in this magical sex room that's perfectly clean. Never been used by anybody else. Full of, you know, silk sheets.\n\nSJ (03:26.318)\nExcellent. Yeah, I feel like I could see that one because then it's like it seems like it would be more healthy to like keep yourself limbered up than to just sit there with like all that pent up stress in you and then you'd probably in any case, yeah, you'd be like going for a run or something to try to stay loose. So sex seems better than just like going for a nervous jog.\n\nKay (03:47.336)\nYes, I think the only one that I absolutely would say no to is probably the exam because the my ability to like completely cognitively drop when I'm trying to store knowledge would be the worst. But the other both of the other two, maybe not on like a Monday through Wednesday night. Those are too serious. If it's if it's bedtime, it's like, no, we need to take 10 minutes here and put the kids to bed, not bang. So what we're describing\n\nSJ (03:56.904)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (04:06.966)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (04:12.136)\nDead time, then bang time.\n\nKay (04:15.497)\nEmily Nagoski's book Come As You Are, and we talk about it a lot. And a big thing that she talks about in the book is the stress response cycle and its relationship with sex. And this is valuable because stress has like a total inverse relationship with everything that makes your body ready and in the mood for sex, which\n\nSJ (04:24.768)\nAnd it's, I've.\n\nSJ (04:29.336)\ninverse relationship with everything that makes your body\n\nfor most people because there are, when I was gonna ask, there are like the rare people that stress actually is a turn on for them. I was gonna ask if that's you.\n\nKay (04:46.314)\nI think certain types of stress and then also like, before a race or before something that where I'm going to do physical energy, I would agree. But what I would say is that I sometimes use sex as a way to intentionally de-stress, but that does not mean that I can go immediately into sex if I'm if I'm experiencing stress. It means that I'm going to take probably\n\nSJ (04:51.697)\nbefore a race or before something.\n\nSJ (05:06.806)\ninto experiencing stress. I'm going to take probably five minutes or so to do a...\n\nKay (05:13.803)\nfive minutes or so to do, I saw this and it's actually termed sensual scrolling, scrolling, I did not call it sensual scrolling in my head. But I might take five minutes to read a sexy scene from a book that I know does sexy scenes well, or I might read through, you know, funny things online that are kind of funny sexual stories and stuff. And then want to have sex just to get myself in somewhere completely different. But in that case, usually the stress response cycle.\n\nSJ (05:31.822)\nyou know, plenty of things on my mind and I'm just to text the stories with them and then, like, just to get myself in some completely different, but in that case, usually because that's best response I've had, like, it has somewhat, I mean, it's possible. Yeah, or you're like, this is part of your completion, like, the enjoyable aspects of sex are like part of your, like, completion and processing of that stress, not like that's your natural, so that it is possible, but there are people who\n\nKay (05:44.045)\nLike it has somewhat like I paused it. I'm not trying to do it in the middle of the cycle.\n\nSJ (06:01.568)\nthat's like the turn on for them is stress and that they're like pouring that into just like makes you super horny. Yeah. my goodness. I am such the opposite. I'm just like, I want nothing to do with, with sex, like definitely intimacy and touching and things like that. But yeah. And then that's hard when you're a parent because there's so much of it, but, to get into it, let's so explain to us a little bit about why our body has this.\n\nKay (06:06.057)\nI'm so anxious!\n\nSJ (06:30.082)\nstress cycle and why we have these like hormones that pump through us when we're stressed.\n\nKay (06:35.405)\nSo it comes, it goes all the way back to, you know, prehistoric times when we really needed the stress response to physically get away from things. And so if you're, if you saw a bear and you had to run from the bear, then your body gets into the fight or flight mode where there's cortisol, there's adrenaline, and the last place that your body is going to send any extra blood to and, you know, any extra energy to.\n\nSJ (06:53.294)\nwhere there's cortisol, there's adrenaline, and the last thing that your body is going to send any extra blood to and any energy to is your vagina. That is the least important part right now. You're not going to to reproduce with your partner when you're running or you're in a state of fear. The problem today is that we aren't\n\nKay (07:03.045)\nis your vagina, your pee pee, you know, that is the least important part right now. You're not going to sit and reproduce with your partner when you're running or you're in a state of fear. Now, the problem today is that, you know, we aren't really running after away from bears anymore or lines. Like we don't actually have like mortal threats. We have stress that comes from different situations where needing to be like\n\nSJ (07:21.294)\naway from their school or life.\n\nWe have stressed that from different situations where meetings are at a high heart rate and adrenaline is not helpful in most cases. I mean, a little bit helpful getting your work done, it's like it's parcel of adrenaline to situations like kids' homework is not really desirable at times. Yeah. Or the nature of the stressors used to be kind of like that they were very\n\nKay (07:31.955)\na high heart rate and adrenaline is not helpful in most cases. mean, a little bit helpful in getting your work done, but it's not like the cortisol, the adrenaline to situations like your kids' homework not being done before bedtime is not.\n\nSJ (07:53.934)\nconcrete and you know, yeah, you would you would conquer whatever it is or escape it and then you know, there can be some kind of celebration or a lot of times with the examples of like animals chasing you that it's like, you kill the animal, you eat it, like you all gather around the fire and cook the animal and eat it. And just the nature of so many of our stressors now are that we never get that sense of completion and that final catharsis and processing.\n\nKay (08:05.931)\nYou'd eat the animal.\n\nSJ (08:21.716)\nof it and that's the piece that's missing and so it's just like you have a shitty boss that always you know is nagging your work and not in a sexy way like mystery nags you.\n\nKay (08:32.299)\nYeah, you cannot go and like scratch your boss like he's a bear in that situation. And you know, even like your partner didn't text to update you that they're coming back, you know, it's not a healthy response to want to lash out at them, but your body's like stress response is telling you like, now you need to take a big action.\n\nSJ (08:36.302)\nI tried it once, it didn't end well.\n\nSJ (08:56.226)\nLike this is threat and we need to like either escape the threat, we need to kill the threat, we need to escape the threat, we need to like remove our, you know, we need to resolve this situation somehow. And so yeah, we have a lot of unresolvable or just yeah, sort of chronic long-term. And that's what I mean about this sense of like ambient stress. And so much of it is just like, I feel like I've had periods in my life where you get through the thing that you thought was what was stressing you like, you have this big deadline. Like I did a lot of grant proposal writing.\n\nSo I feel like that does really contain like the thing that is stressing me out is this proposal. So it's like, I will finish it and then I will feel this sense of relief. And I think the two reasons that it gets turned in and like maybe you feel like a brief moment of relaxation or you try to like go do something celebratory. One is that you still have all this kind of like ambient stress around you that is just like all these ongoing things like, am I a good enough parent? Am I like stimulating my kids emotional development enough? Blah, blah, blah.\n\nBut also because, and we'll get into that, but like you don't complete the cycle. Like you don't have that like cook the bear, eat the bear, celebrate around the fire with your friends. And you just kind of like move on to the next thing.\n\nKay (10:07.371)\nThat's like with the chronic stressors that come from having young kids, like you might, if you're looking for completion and the actual action being done, you're probably never going to get there for a very, very long time. And so what I thought was helpful when I originally read this, I thought that it was going to get to like, well, we need to complete the cycle by really just sitting down and doing all the work and getting it done. And that's not realistic. so thank goodness that's not what's actually suggested.\n\nSJ (10:16.528)\nYeah.\n\nKay (10:35.169)\nsuggested as ways to complete the cycle are more almost like tricking your body that it's been completed. Like a 20 second hug.\n\nSJ (10:40.226)\nYeah, like find ways to like gather around the fire and, you know, eat the bear and dance and do a magical dance where you like celebrate and stuff like that. And I thought the interesting thing that she pointed out for me was that it's not about removing the stressor, right? And that's like what a lot of us think that it is. And so it is like, if I could just get to inbox zero, if I can complete my to-do list, if I can remove this thing. Yeah.\n\nKay (11:04.309)\nIf all the dishes could just be cleaned.\n\nSJ (11:06.774)\nAnd then you find that even if you did get to that mythical, you know, laundry zero, inbox zero kind of status, that you are not feeling better. And it's because it's not about removing the stressor. mean, especially in this day and age, we're like, we're never going to be stress free. Yeah, it's about finding healthy ways to just let your body like process through that and complete the cycle.\n\nKay (11:29.557)\nYes, and so ways that are in Emily Nagowski's books are physical activity, whether that's a run or just dancing in place, or even just doing like 10 to 20 hops, which most of us are, I don't want say most of us are capable of, a lot of us have knee issues, but any types of little dance for a bit, just to get that physical energy out.\n\nAnd 20 second hug is another way with somebody who you feel close enough to that a 20 second hug is comfortable. You know, don't give a 20 second hug to your boss. That probably won't complete it for you at all. Yeah. Yeah. The 20 second hug did not help me with my boss. Laughing, crying. They technically say the primal scream. I, I will not dis the primal scream, but it's not mine.\n\nSJ (12:02.21)\nalso tried that and then well.\n\nlaughing, crying, I could say the primal scream.\n\nMaybe I just I haven't been in the right context and I was invited to a retreat that was like going to involve primal screams and I feel like it was this whole thing where there was like a drum circle and stuff so I feel like maybe if I had a primal scream in that kind of context but I feel like just shutting myself in my closet and having a primal scream would just make my neighbors concerned because I live in a row home.\n\nKay (12:39.573)\nSo I have to share this, I personally thought, amazing study on it that should not have been done, but since it is done, we get to enjoy the questionable methods. So preliminary evidence that acute and chronic daily psychological stress affect sexual arousal in sexually functional women. Okay, so they took a group of women and they divided them into the intervention group and the control group.\n\nSJ (13:05.133)\nyou\n\nSo for the intervention group, they were assigned an extremely difficult computer task with an unfriendly research assistant. Ooh, I just wanted to have the job of the theater kid who gets to play the unfriendly research assistant. Theater kids assemble!\n\nKay (13:07.821)\nSo for the intervention group, they were assigned an extremely difficult computer task with an unfriendly research assistant there with them. I mean, unfriendly. Did the person look unfriendly? How did they train this research assistant to be unfriendly to these women who were assigned basically an impossible computer task to do? So they were assigned to that one. And then the other group of women\n\nof women, the comparison, the control group, were assigned like a super easy computer task. was like, you know, pick the farm animals out with nothing tricky and a lot of reward. And then afterwards, it took all the women and it played a sexy video for them. In case anybody was wondering, it was One Size Fits All, which the authors described as a female friendly erotic film.\n\nSJ (13:46.574)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (14:00.322)\nDid you go watch this as part of your research?\n\nKay (14:02.445)\nI wanted to, but it was also quoted like a 1995 article in this that I was like, I might need to like rent a VHS if I want to see one size fits all. But here's like the real kicker. They then did vaginal pulse amplitude, which is basically like a tampon sized device that you put inside your vagina. my gosh, it sounds great. Yeah, you are doing this.\n\nSJ (14:21.55)\nthat you put inside your moustache. Oh, sounds sexy. That your partner controls.\n\nKay (14:27.981)\npart of a study. just I was imagining being in like a very sterile room with like fluorescent lighting and like put this like device. Yeah, we want to see how horny you are. And, and so it much was like basically how engorged your vaginal walls get as a way.\n\nSJ (14:34.306)\nthey're like, just put in this vaginal amplitude tampon and watch some 90s porn\n\nSJ (14:47.276)\nMm-hmm. Okay.\n\nKay (14:49.055)\nI looked this up, by the way, and apparently this method has like zero relationship with how women actually report whether or not they were turned on. So it's also not great.\n\nSJ (14:55.854)\nThey were turned on. was also not great. It was the 90s. I mean, at least they were trying to do sex research. This was an important first attempt. There was an attempt.\n\nKay (15:03.789)\nThe study itself was from like 2010, but they said for the video, they quoted a 1995 article where I was like, okay, can't be too good. But they also were like, we disinfected the vaginal pulse amplitude before it was green news. I was like, oh my gosh, no, no, a passion being given like something that had been in another person's vagina. And they were.\n\nSJ (15:08.91)\nThey said them for the video.\n\nSJ (15:13.203)\nSJ (15:20.851)\nshit, those have to be single use.\n\nSJ (15:28.44)\nSomebody's used pulse tampon.\n\nKay (15:31.529)\nonly given $30 for this entire experience. Like, I couldn't. But in case anybody was wondering, it did indeed turn out that the people who watch the computer task were less likely to be horny during it. Do we trust these findings? I mean, it makes sense. Did the woman have to go through this? Like, I don't know.\n\nSJ (15:56.047)\nI feel like in the course of doing this podcast, Kay, we found a lot of studies that I'm like, did we need a study to confirm this? And then I look around sometimes at the current state of things and I'm like, the men are not okay. Maybe we do need a study. Maybe it is helpful to be able to point to this and be like, actually, gentlemen, it turns out your wife is not feeling super horny.\n\nKay (16:04.513)\nDid they have to put the device up their vagina?\n\nSJ (16:20.706)\nwhen you like, you know, leave your shit all over the floor and like refuse to help with things. So I don't know, maybe we do need this research. Although I feel like the men that need the message from this research are not the ones who would be accessing it. I don't think they're like searching the NIH for studies about women's sexual horniness and...\n\nKay (16:41.933)\nIf only I could have these men and talk to them about these studies where they stuck a tampon-like device.\n\nSJ (16:50.05)\nI'm really sad that I missed this in my medical testing era though when I was like fresh out of college I had no money and I lived in DC so of course there were a lot of opportunities to sign up for like medical tech like I feel like 30 was pretty good for back then I definitely had one that I did where I think I got like 15 per session and then like\n\nKay (17:01.261)\nI have gotten a cool 30.\n\nSJ (17:12.81)\nMetro fare to get to the facility where we were in the NIH. And it was just like, I actually would have loved to go back and find some of these studies because I was just like, what was it actually testing? Like there was this one where they would give you random different over the counter drugs and it was like supposed to be double blind. You didn't know which one that you had, but it would be like,\n\nNyquil or like Benadryl or something was one of them. remember like just different kinds of like over the counter kinds of things, but they were all depressants except for there were caffeine pills and I have like a sensitivity to caffeine, but they would give you a random drug out of the like seven or so of them and then have you do this computer test that tested your like timing response to things. And I, but I want to know what it was for because it was with the military and I'm like, what are they testing?\n\nand then they give me $15. Mine was obviously caffeine because I'm really sensitive to it.\n\nKay (18:04.685)\nGetting $15 to take a drug is, even if it's an over-the-counter drug, is repulsive, SJ.\n\nSJ (18:13.398)\nYeah, I mean, it was a while ago and it was just an over the counter drug. So that's why I was fine with it. I sat by a guy at work at a job after that and he was still like very interested in medical testing, but he was doing like whatever the fuck medical tests that were probably paying more than $15. But he would just have like weird things and I would hear him on his phone because he wouldn't leave his desk to call to do the research calls. So you just hear like one side of his phone calls and he's like, yes.\n\nKay (18:34.973)\nHahaha!\n\nSJ (18:39.988)\nsome redness and itchiness, but no hair loss. Like you would just like hear one side of things and I'm like, what the fuck medicine are they having you take? They are not paying you enough for this as you hear him describe half of his symptoms. Anyway, that's just a quick sidebar into my brief foray into low paying medical research.\n\nKay (18:41.932)\nHahaha!\n\nKay (18:46.964)\nYou\n\nKay (18:52.575)\nBye bye.\n\nKay (18:57.165)\nyou\n\nYes, and we often talk about the accelerator brake model and, you know, that accelerators help sexual intimacy brakes just make you not at all interested and stress is like the ultimate like if you are driving the car and you imagine your sexual interest as a car, like sex is like slamming on, sorry, stress is slamming on those brakes and it really makes arousal feel impossible, especially for women.\n\nSJ (19:16.398)\nMm-mm.\n\nstress.\n\nKay (19:27.277)\nLike for women, that's one of the reasons why there's drugs like Viagra wouldn't work despite the different things. Like you really have to work with the mind as well and turn off the stressor.\n\nSJ (19:33.688)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (19:39.788)\nYeah. But then I think like understanding the whole, think that because you are somebody who, guess, if you have like filled out the test in her books, like probably does have a very sensitive accelerator, then for you, what you were describing of like, okay, like pretty quickly after I'm removed from the stressful situation, I can kind of like even put it to the side without completing the stress response cycle and like get my mind onto something else and then like pretty quickly get excited again. But I think that for women who maybe don't have\n\nKay (19:43.543)\nI think that you're somebody who...\n\nKay (19:54.478)\nactually a very stressful situation. I can kind of like, you know, put it to the side without making the stress.\n\nSJ (20:09.4)\nsuch a sensitive accelerator or do you kind of feel like their brakes like hit hard and fast that when there are a lot of cultural things that will just be like, okay, you know, like put the kids to bed and then just like, it's time to be in a sexy mood and just like make yourself feel sexy. That that's not enough for a lot of women. And then there's also like a very much like a cultural message that if you're not then like ready to be like a full time, you know, like a\n\nKay (20:09.463)\nsuch as.\n\nhit hard that there are a of\n\nSJ (20:38.604)\nmom in the streets, but a freak in the sheets and like turn yourself full time over. Like kids are in bed. Now it's time to like really just like be a huge slut. I think that a lot of moms feel like they're broken.\n\nKay (20:45.517)\nYeah, and just about what stress does like the physical effects of the cortisol, it makes you have a tense pelvic floor and it reduces lubrication. And it also almost causes like numbness in that area because your body is 100 % prioritizing survival over pleasure and it just\n\nSJ (21:08.567)\nEnd of\n\nKay (21:09.678)\nYou can imagine if you go back into like why when we do need to do that for physical reasons, having any blood to your vagina would not be an efficient use of your blood.\n\nSJ (21:19.788)\nYeah. And then I think you run the very real possibility of then like associations, like if you try to just like plow forward anyway, plow. Yeah, then you start to get this association between like kind of this like negative and not like coercion necessary. I mean, I hope not in the sense of like that, you know, you have a partner that's like, better like fuck me now. But just I think like the sense of like you coercing your own body into like, OK, come on, like this is the time I've set aside to do this. Like I have to do it now.\n\nKay (21:27.479)\nthen your body stops associating, like having sex with a partner.\n\nKay (21:46.35)\nI've seen something that I do as a favor and is not enjoyable for me versus something that I do that is enjoyable for me because I, know, not that they let it, but because the situation happened where they had it, where they did have this tense floor, this reduced lubrication, all that, it creates this negative response cycle.\n\nSJ (22:06.956)\nYeah, and it does really then like play into this whole thing that I think a lot of us were brought up in the cultural mindset that sex is just something that like women are not innately sexual or I mean if they are they're huge sluts. So like nice good girls are not sexual and these like solely exist to like perform sexually for the enjoyment of their husbands. But it is like you are kind of playing that up if you are, you know, like if that's kind of like becomes the mindset of like, okay, then, you know,\n\nthe kids to bed, like time to like, you know, slug it up and service my partner kind of idea, that is kind of like underscoring that type of mindset of like, this isn't about the woman's pleasure. This is just like you, your body is not innately sexual. So like, it's not going to happen on its own anyway. So you just have to kind of like fake it till you make it.\n\nKay (22:58.711)\nYeah. that's why, ooh, awareness of the stress response cycle and things that you can do to pause the stress response cycle. And one would just be reading Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski because we are, of course, doing our best to advertise it, but it is all evidence-based. She really, really does look into the research. And what I love about her and what you see in the interviews with her is that she used to teach a class on this before she read, before she wrote the book. And\n\nshe would have students answer as a final exam question, what was one thing that you will take away from this class? And over half the students wrote down, I am normal, like my body's normal, which shows us like what a universal experience this is. And when I was doing preliminary research for this episode, and I looked up sex and stress, there was so much, there was so much online about people saying,\n\nSJ (23:40.31)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (23:54.954)\nMy partner is really, really stressed and he's saying that he's not interested in sex now. Is that actually the case or is there something wrong with us? On both ends, across sexual orientation, across gender, people would be concerned about whether or not they were just no longer sexually appealing to their partner or whether it really was the stress. people who are experiencing the stress were also posting like, man, I've been underneath so much stress and I haven't even had an interest in masturbating, let alone having sex.\n\nSJ (24:02.726)\nYeah. Yeah.\n\nKay (24:23.853)\nfor a month, so it's a totally normal thing, think, yeah, awareness and.\n\nSJ (24:29.038)\nWell, and the one like tweak that I would make based on like kind of the book and that research on the stress response cycle is the importance of actually like completing the stress response cycle and not pausing it. And like some of the things that we do tend to actually be like stuff that pauses it. And it is like either that we just try to remove the stressor and think that that like kind of ends the cycle there or that we try to just like pause it, push it to the side. obviously like\n\nWhen you and I were reading this stuff, I think we were both like, some of the things on it are a little bit like your college freshman orientation when they're like, let's talk about like, what are some healthy ways to cope with stress? What are some unhealthy ways to cope with stress? Whatever. But it is true that a lot of the things that we recognize as healthy ways to cope with stress are also because they do help you have that catharsis and complete the stress response cycle versus unhealthy things.\n\nLike alcohol is the first one that comes to mind or just like mindlessly distracting yourself by like staring at your phone. I think we've all experienced that it's like, it gives you a brief break from that sense of looming anxiety, but it doesn't actually resolve it typically. So I think that that's like the really important thing to understand to get from, to like move from that sense of being stressed onto that ability to have sexy time is like finding out.\n\nwhat are the ways that work best for you to actually complete the cycle and not just push things to the side and feel like, that's probably not gonna be looming in my mind and I'll just make myself feel sexy for a while.\n\nKay (26:03.816)\nYeah, and what I liked about the cycle completers is that, know, the cycle completers, so things that can complete your stress response cycle, is that in my head, again, these were something that was like a little bit more complicated or took a little bit more time. Like when you see yoga, even though yoga is great, you can't help but think like, do they mean like go to like a one hour yoga class? But really even like a 10 minute walk, 20 second hug, I know I keep on saying that, but a 20 second hug is something totally doable to do with your partner.\n\nSJ (26:26.779)\nYeah\n\nKay (26:31.369)\nknow, journaling.\n\nSJ (26:31.564)\nLike one song dance break, know, just like, especially with so much of us working from home, you can just have a dance break and no one can even see your dance moves. Unless you start a YouTube channel.\n\nKay (26:40.813)\nUnless you want them to see. they're part of switching over to the sexual intimacy. So, I just, I kind of love that. I love that it's easy. And I think something just to be intentional about because the stress cycle can totally hijack sexual intimacy. And again, you know, it's fine if you don't want to be sexually intimate for endless reasons. But if the block is stress, then that stress is also affecting you across the board.\n\nSJ (27:08.45)\nYeah, other systems of the body as well. So it's like, it's not just a question of like, how do I have hotter and better sex, but I think just for like our own health and our bodies as well. And I feel like this episode is coming at a time when I just had several things thrown at me that were just like other things that I was reading or people were mentioning about the importance of exercise. And as they talk about like longevity or not just like\n\nKay (27:18.445)\nThank you.\n\nSJ (27:31.81)\nyour lifespan, but your well span of like living to be 85, but also like having an enjoyable life through 85 or whatever age, a lot of it comes down to exercise. And that just seems to be like the one thing, you know, nutrition research, like there can be kind of like conflicting findings on like, should we be like vegan? Should we be gluten free? Should we eat the paleo diet? But as far as like exercise goes, I've just like the idea of\n\nexerting your body of doing for women as you age, doing weight training with heavier weights, all those kinds of things. I felt like that was very uplifting that for me lately, exercise has been a lot of my complete the cycle, but there's just like so much research right now about in general. That's just like our bodies need it for so many reasons beyond just being sexy. But of course here at Good Girls, we're always about having.\n\nKay (28:25.101)\nPromoting good sexual health or not. Yeah. What was I gonna say? Do do do do. Sure. I don't know. was wondering whether so we could read this ridiculous situation from the guy, but it's just like so stupid that we also don't need to. Or we could like go into like a closing up another episode. Like.\n\nSJ (28:26.815)\nHappy sex lives.\n\nKay (29:23.821)\nCool. You ready for that? Okay, so we hope that you learned not that we're experts by any means, but it is helpful, I think, for all of us, including including me, I know for sure, to be thoughtful about stress and ways that we can reduce it and ways that we can make sure that it's not impacting other parts of our life. And so to tie things up, we're going to go to a book review of notes of\n\nSJ (29:26.392)\nYeah.\n\nKay (29:53.662)\nSJ's entry into the romantic world of literature against her will.\n\nSJ (30:01.76)\nOkay, well, I guess nobody made me read all of this whole Court of Thorns and Roses series, and yet here I am still doing it, but this also speaks to my just total inability to not complete the cycle for anything. So I'm completing this cycle despite the stress that, no, I'm just kidding. It's not stressing me out. Okay, so we're into the third book in A Court of Thorns and Roses. I'm actually not finished with it yet. This is a very long book, no?\n\nKay (30:28.455)\nI think that's...\n\nSJ (30:29.004)\nI think that it is. It's hard to tell when you're reading them on the e-reader. it's a bit of a sluggy third one.\n\nKay (30:34.017)\nThird one. And also you already got the satisfaction of seeing the two main characters get together so you don't have that pressing drive of seeing them.\n\nSJ (30:42.136)\nThis is a thing when romance is the main plot driver of the book, because there's plenty of fantasy books or other books where it has a romantic element. But then once there's that resolution and the characters get together, then that moves to the side. So I feel like the only way that it works in a romantic or romance primarily kind of context is that you have to keep coming up with reasons why the two main characters can't be together.\n\nKay (30:54.103)\nthen they...\n\nSJ (31:08.738)\nAnd I will say here, kind of like that she just like lets them be kind of so far, they're just kind of like mostly with each other. So they kind of turn to other things. But then you're like, when it was the romantic attraction that was the main thing and like, will they or won't they? How is this going to turn out? And her spurned lover did just like turn out to be a real turd and you don't really feel bad for him. I don't know. I know that then we're supposed to get to the romantic situation between her sister, Nesta and\n\nthe Cassian. And I, so I'm told that I should still read that book because it just gets real smutty. And apparently that was like when Sarah J Maas was just like home with her baby and just.\n\nKay (31:51.137)\nWe can all relate to a woman in their mid-30s with kids just super horny.\n\nSJ (31:54.862)\njust stuck home and super horny. So like, good for her. So at first I was like, I'm not gonna read that book because I do not care at all what happens to Nesta. She's the biggest bitch. But a friend of mine was like, you should read it. She's like, if you're here for the smut, she's like, that book is much smuttier. I was like, okay, I might listen to it as an audio book and just like skip a lot of the plot. We'll see.\n\nKay (32:09.965)\nIt's hot. Yeah.\n\nKay (32:15.617)\nWhen you read that, when you go back to 1 through 3, you're like, wow, you really, really stepped up the smut.\n\nSJ (32:22.444)\nYeah, because so far I'm like, I would not describe these books as smut. Romance is a primary thing, but I feel like it's more the romance and less the actual sex between them, especially by now. They have a couple of sex scenes, but I was like, they were pretty tame. On a scale of five eggplants, I would definitely rate this book a two eggplants, maybe.\n\nKay (32:43.059)\nYeah, I mean, there's, you know, some, I'm trying to think of how to say in a non-explicit way, there's some phase fucking... In A Course Over Flames, not in... The first series was all very PG territory.\n\nSJ (32:49.538)\nYou can stand in an explicit way. It's our podcast. I feel like she goes down on him.\n\nYeah, it's all very vanilla missionary sex kind of thing. Like they are really enjoying themselves. So that's great It also takes to the third book as I was asking you and our other friend that is into these books Where are the queer fairies like in my mind if you just have like? 500 year old beings who clearly based on their attitudes towards this one queer character are not like homophobic. There's no cultural fear of it. Why are they all not just like\n\nKay (33:10.615)\nWe're.\n\nKay (33:14.605)\nReally.\n\nSJ (33:25.016)\nfucking each other in like twosomes, threesomes, foursomes, left, right, and sideways. And then there's just like the one guy and then they're like, yeah, he has threesomes. And she's like, tee hee hee. I'm like, why are they not all having threesomes? They're like these like sexually, you know, like active eternal beings. They'd have to get pretty bored with their missionary sex after like the first hundred years.\n\nKay (33:34.196)\nHahaha!\n\nKay (33:47.022)\nYeah, it makes you wonder if maybe for a recent fair, if he's like easing her into sex since she is. Yeah, she's definitely like, you know, the child bride for his 500 year old self. So he's waiting for you.\n\nSJ (33:53.762)\nHe's gonna like whip out the...\n\nSJ (34:01.046)\nYeah, he's gonna wait like 200 years before he gets out there and anal beads and whatnot. Yeah, so I will say that it's like the romance is the central driver, but then I'm like waiting for her as a character to like come into her own because you do have kind of the power dynamic already. Yeah, of like, yeah, so I'm like, okay, now and I get in the beginning, like she's younger than him. She is human, like she doesn't have any magical powers.\n\nKay (34:18.477)\nShe does the opposite almost.\n\nSJ (34:27.84)\nNow it's like she's got all the magical powers, but she just like continues to like exist in this like, you know, in his orbit. And there was like this quote from the book, like she puts on her crown before she goes to like meet up with a bunch of people. And she's like, he's like the Lord of night. And she's like, and I'm the queen of stars. And she's like, if he was night triumphant, I was the star that only glowed thanks to his darkness, the light only visible because of him. And I was like, girl.\n\nKay (34:52.511)\nYuck. Yuck, yuck, yuck.\n\nSJ (34:55.638)\nYou have lots of powers, like it's time for you to have your own independent identity and existence. And she's just like, wow, that's so nice of him that he like made me the high lady of his court instead of just like his fuck buddy.\n\nKay (35:06.157)\nShe's supposed to have powers from every single High Lord, so she can make water wolves and all that stuff. And then this third book, every single major battle.\n\nSJ (35:10.317)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (35:16.398)\nShe just sort of is just teeter tottering around. I'm a little bit, yeah. And then in the beginning, he does a lot of decision making without consulting the women in his life. was kind of like negative 10 points to Reese when he decides to grant access for the people in the nightmare court to his city that he's been so protective of, and he doesn't talk to more about it first, or even his own mate, wife person.\n\nKay (35:22.24)\nIt's disappointing.\n\nSJ (35:42.21)\nand he's like, I just didn't know how you were gonna respond, so I didn't wanna tell you in advance. I was like, if a man did that in real life, I would call bullshit so fast and be like.\n\nKay (35:50.424)\nKind of like Justin Valdoni, fake feminist vibes. Like, yeah, like I let all the women in library do all this, but also I want total control over everything.\n\nSJ (35:53.888)\nYeah. He's like, I'm such an ally to women.\n\nSJ (36:01.39)\nYeah, exactly. So I don't know. He's still not. I feel like he just spends a lot of time telling her that she's equal to him, but he doesn't really show it. So, yeah, I'm I'm still keeping going with it. I kind of like the overall world building a lot in this one. You know, there's like some interesting things happening. I still kind of hate the sisters and I feel like she could have written them better in the first book if she wanted them to have a redemption arc. She could have made them be like shitty but complicated.\n\nBut in the first book, the sisters were very just like uncomplicatedly shitty. So, hmm, we'll see. But I will read Ness's sex scenes just because, you know, good girls for research purposes.\n\nKay (36:36.615)\nNot good. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about this.\n\nKay (36:45.173)\nYes. A Court of Silver Flames is enjoyable. Yeah, I wonder how much and you will see as the Sarah J Maas world evolves, because she's still writing and she's kind of interconnected. It is a metaverse of sorts, like the books all build on each other. But I do wonder like what Reese is going to be like in later books. And part of me wonders if Sarah J Maas just gave up on men, but I don't know.\n\nThis is being somewhat intentional.\n\nSJ (37:15.212)\nYeah, there's like so much opportunity for like the telling the other story. So I think it's interesting that she does have a book where she then focuses on other characters because it's like, all right, like Reese is just like, he is tied down. He's a one woman man now with Farah. But like, why do we not do I mean, is there the fan fiction out there with who's the king that's like the one with the boyfriend and has like threesomes and foursomes and stuff, whichever king that is? Is that Helion? Yeah, Helion. So I'm like,\n\nKay (37:38.295)\nHelion\n\nSJ (37:43.278)\nDo people write fanfic for him? Because I feel like that's like a... If you want to smut his his foursums that he keeps like hinting at. Yeah, magical foursums with like some wings thrown in there and like people who like sparkle and shimmer and give off light and stuff. I mean, there could be some real fanfic opportunities there that I feel like Sarah J Maas is not monetizing.\n\nKay (37:46.923)\nI'm sure it exists.\n\nHis magical foreshadows with his like all the sunlight.\n\nKay (38:04.321)\nWe're not getting in from the basic ones. Yeah. I just wondered, I don't know. I'm in like a negative mood towards our dear other gender right now because you fly. I'm petite. I just like they look at me at Southwest and they're like, I'm going to sit next to this person. I'm going to take up one fourth of her seat.\n\nSJ (38:17.419)\nof world events.\n\nSJ (38:24.462)\nBecause I can take the armrests she's too small to be able to take them back from me.\n\nKay (38:28.107)\nYeah, and I'm gonna now I'm gonna take the armrest I'm gonna lean in another three inches or so and like Okay, little lady move over\n\nSJ (38:36.098)\nThat is when you just like whip out a tuna fish sandwich that you have just like freshly microwaved and just start eating it right next to that man spreader.\n\nKay (38:45.677)\nIt is insane and overall, know, men are our partners in this world along with others, they're not the best sometimes. That's all.\n\nSJ (38:55.222)\nEspecially the ones I feel like also we're just suffering a lot from the fact that we have a lot of idiot men in charge and I'm like, what if we just just tore it all down and made it we only can elect women as we did for the first 200 some years, you know, like, let's just even things out a little bit where we just have like one election cycle that is just like no men, them all out, they're done, they've lost their chance, they're doing a terrible job.\n\nKay (39:13.956)\nYeah, let's, you guys, let's go!\n\nLet's the other gender take a chance for 200 years and then we can compare the two 200 years together and then whatever one is best wins and we'll be...\n\nSJ (39:27.394)\nYeah, all of the billionaire tech bros have to give their money to their ex-wives, la Mackenzie Scott. And yeah, just see what happens.\n\nKay (39:35.729)\nwonderful things. These are just ideas for world improvement that we're putting out.\n\nSJ (39:39.758)\nThese are just some submissions that I have in this category. Get back to me if you have the power to make this happen. I would love to tell you more details.\n\nKay (39:48.333)\nThere's just no doubt we could do a wonderful job. Well, this took tangents. We appreciate you all. Thank you so much from the Good Girls. We hope you have a great day and thanks for listening. As always, follows and likes make a big difference. So thank you so much for those of you who do follow and like and if you haven't, take a second to drop it.\n\nSJ (40:05.784)\nWait till you've completed the stress response cycle to leave us your review so that you'll be feeling in an extra sexy mood.\n\nKay (40:09.514)\nYeah, I'm somebody not your boss and hug them for 20 seconds and 10 minute walk, any of those and then then leave us your review. Thank you. Bye.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":16,"createdAt":"2025-11-04T12:38:09.411Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:06:13.845Z"},{"id":15,"title":"Dear Abby, Good Girls Style...SJ and Kay Lend Their Questionable Wisdom to Sex Questions","slug":"Dear-Abby-Good-Girls-Style-SJ-and-Kay-Lend-Their-Questionable-Wisdom-to-Sex-Questions","description":"Okay, good girls and boys, SJ and Kay are here to dish out our \"Dear Abby, Good Girls Style\" advice full of questionable wisdom. The gals tackle your juiciest queries with zero filter and questionable expertise. From a hubby who's all tongue and no technique…Daisy L., we're side-eyeing the long tongue situation…to a down-there \"stench\" shade that's killed the vibe…Confidence P., that man hardly deserves a sad handjob. \n\nThey cackle through vibrator detox dilemmas. multi-orgasm marathons that leave her pooped, and that wild-card MFM threesome thirst. It's chaotic, cathartic, and probably accurate – but hey, laughter's the best foreplay.\n\nWhether you're rebuilding mojo or just eavesdropping on our unhinged unloads, this one's for anyone who's ever faked a finale or fantasized a fantasy. Hit play, and remember: questionable advice is still advice. Warnings: explicit AF, earbuds mandatory. Stream on all pods – next round's on you!","spotifyEmbedId":"4QRpHlTwgywXC5zwBbUWKL","releaseDate":"October 28, 2025","duration":"50 minutes","topics":["Sexual health","Breaking expectations","Communication","life advice"],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":15,"createdAt":"2025-10-28T10:58:53.010Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:07:18.932Z"},{"id":14,"title":"Virtual Vibes: Sexts, Snaps, and AI Sweethearts","slug":"Virtual-Vibes-Sexts-Snaps-and-AI-Sweethearts","description":"In this episode of Good Girls, hosts SJ and Kay dive into the steamy, glitchy world of virtual sex. They talk Snapchat nudes that vanish (or don't), long-distance sexy pics gone wrong, and the dopamine rush of emoji foreplay. Kay spills on her 20s-era FWB snaps and the awkward thrill of timed sexy videos, while SJ confesses on accidentally \"love you\"-ing her boss. Backed by research on attachment anxiety fueling sexts and oxytocin spikes from sweet (not just BDSM) erotica, they unpack why words often outshine visuals for women, the risks of leaks (RIP many celebs' privacy), and safety PSAs for consent and brakes on your sexual accelerator.\n\nWe end with a review of A Court of Thorns and Roses: Tamlin's masks, Rhysand's wings, and why no one needs a 19-year-old soulmate.\nTune in for laughs, science, and zero judgment. Drop a sexty review and follow for more unfiltered vibes!","spotifyEmbedId":"7qHjnMbmFwOqm6LmniQm1b","releaseDate":"October 21, 2025","duration":"41 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"SJ (00:01.164)\nWelcome to the Good Girls podcast. Today we're talking about all things virtual vibes, sexting, internet dating, marrying your AI chatbot. So I feel like Kay is gonna be the one of us with the more experience in this area. Kay, talk to me about your sexting history.\n\nKay (00:23.255)\nSo one of my neighbors recently shared that they still use Snapchat. And I just looked at them and I was like, do you guys send each other sex? And they looked at me like, why are you so creepy?\n\nSJ (00:35.742)\nI would definitely assume. I mean, I do. We will get into my issues, but I feel like something like Snapchat is the only way that I do feel comfortable sending racy photos. And yeah, so if I hear that an adult couple is still using Snapchat, mean, tweens, I have no idea what they're using. Maybe they're still using Snapchat. I would think nothing of it. But an adult couple still using Snapchat, absolutely sexting.\n\nKay (00:59.927)\nwas really enjoying getting into the research for this episode, which we'll get into, because I saw all these things. Like if you send sexually explicit pictures, you're more likely to have attachment anxiety and attachment avoidance. And I was like, wow, I feel personally hurt for a 20s K, because that is probably on the nose. Because when I think about times that I sent my sexy Snapchats,\n\nSJ (01:14.222)\nfeel personally...\n\nKay (01:23.051)\nthere when I was in like long distance fuck boy relationships. Like it was not an established thing, but when they were in town, we'd hook up or when I was on their side of the city, we would.\n\nSJ (01:30.35)\nthey were in town, we hooked up, or when I was on their side of the city, but...\n\nKay (01:43.189)\nYes, you're like, are you thinking of me? Might as well send a picture of like my back to the mirror, but no clothes on, right? Because that's a good way to make sure that you are, but always with snapchat. you know, the feedback that you get is a rush. They're like, wow, this is hot. How could you send this to me when I'm in the middle of my shift and all that? But ultimately, the research shows that both partners are ambivalent when sexually explicit pictures are sent.\n\nSJ (01:53.688)\nhow that work out for you.\n\nThe feedback that you get is\n\nSJ (02:03.054)\nand all that, but ultimately the research shows that both partners are ambivalent when sexually explicit pictures are sent. And I do feel like overall this is the case. So the funnier thing, that was actually a less normal thing that I did. Okay, tell me about the less normal thing that you did.\n\nKay (02:12.233)\nAnd I do feel like overall, is the case, though the funnier thing that was actually, feel like a more normal thing that I did. So if you've taken, and I don't know, maybe Snapchat functionality has evolved since then, but it used to be that your video could only be so long and it would explode so that it would stop. But I had one person who I was with and then they moved to New York.\n\nSJ (02:35.074)\nYeah\n\nSJ (02:42.062)\nAnd they would send me things that would start off with like, you know, they're masturbating in New York. And then I'm like, well, now I got to do it back. But like you're trying to figure out how to do this with like this. Yeah, I'm not trained as a camera operator.\n\nKay (02:42.377)\nAnd they would send me things that would start off with like, you know, they're masturbating in New York. And then I'm like, well, now I got to do it back. But like, you're trying to figure out how to do this with like the, you know, the angle of your camera. And you're trying to make, you know, yourself look at least not disgusting. And so it's like your angle and like all that is extremely tricky. And then you're also only studying it for short clips. then you're getting really bad clips.\n\nWhich does not go with the normal flow of female masturbation at least. Maybe for males it's more straightforward, but I'm just looking back at that and I'm like...\n\nSJ (03:18.996)\nYeah.\n\nI'm just looking back at that. Girl, I can't even take a regular selfie, let alone a masturbation selfie with a time limit.\n\nKay (03:27.191)\nAnd then and then just like sitting there waiting it's like what do I do? Do I continue? Well, I can't get too into it. I can't put on a video because maybe I'll get one back. And I would say that that overall did work well though, as I've shared in previous episodes, when we ended but because we were long distance and not committed to each other, you know, there was no sharing that we ended, I stopped messaging, I was in a relationship with somebody else.\n\nAnd then, you know, he thought we were still on for our sexy snaps and yeah, when you get a picture of it you don't want it, you're all of a sudden like, wow, this is so perverted. Why would you ever think that I wanted this? Even though, you know, like two months ago I was like, let me get myself into a private place. we're pretty excited to dig into what's actually happening there and then get into other.\n\nSJ (03:58.21)\nand then you just get some mystery dick snaps.\n\nSJ (04:11.66)\nYeah, context matters. Context matters. Especially for dick pics and dick snaps.\n\nKay (04:23.958)\nthings that people are doing virtually. And I think that there is something that's unexplored, I found at least in the literature, which is that they did it in married couples, they did it in people who were in college, all that where they asked about their behaviors, but they really didn't get into long distance committed relationships, where there are specific reasons.\n\nSJ (04:45.326)\nWhich seems like it's worthwhile to count that as its own category, especially in the context of virtual sex.\n\nKay (04:53.91)\nYeah, because that's not, you know, attachment anxiety. That is that you're in a committed relationship with your partner and at night it might be a scheduled time where you're in it. Yeah. I was with that particular one where we were doing it. There was some trust involved, but there was definitely people where I was like, oh, I'm not sure where this is happening or if you're going to text me the next time I come in town. And my roommate, who's pretty cool and funny, said that she just sent sex. And so I came for anything. But there is like the long distance.\n\nSJ (05:01.102)\nOr with your fuckboy. I'm just kidding. Is that me committed?\n\nKay (05:23.734)\naspect of it, which I think, again, warrants its own category because that's not you being anxious, that's you trying to, you know, maintain a close intimate relationship despite distance. Now, in that case, and I don't think that this is surprising, women actually respond better if they're being texted, you know, words and things to give a picture of what the guy is imagining versus\n\nSJ (05:25.272)\nwhich I think, again, we're in some kind of category because that's not you being anxious, that's you trying to maintain close, intimate relationships by distance. Now, in that case, don't think\n\nSJ (05:50.894)\nversus an actual visual image?\n\nKay (05:52.914)\nan actual visual image. And if you think about how...\n\nKay (06:00.79)\nSometimes you don't know what the context is, what kind of food she's in. So even if she hasn't moved on from the moment in a relationship with someone else, I just feel like, yeah, the thing about these techniques is that even if you generally are open to that person's stick, you don't know what kind of context the woman is in when she's receiving her. Like, if I'm sitting in a little, like an annoying call with somebody at work who I hate that, I feel like that would just feel very aggressive and aggressive to me.\n\nSJ (06:18.776)\nwhen she's receiving your dick pic. Like if I'm in the middle of like an annoying call with somebody at work who I hate that I feel like then it would just feel very aggressive and abrasive to me.\n\nKay (06:29.504)\nThere's also like a prettiness aspect of it. Yes. Which goes along with that. like, a woman dressed in like nice lingerie is sexy. There's a reason why like, know, Victoria's secret models are like something that everybody came back, wow, she looks really beautiful in that outfit. Nobody, there's much less people looking at men dressed in scantily clothes and being like, that's beautiful. Have I tried?\n\nSJ (06:32.846)\nOur stuff is prettier than theirs.\n\nSJ (06:46.126)\ntrue.\n\nSJ (06:53.548)\nAnd then banana hammock. Have you tried it? Have you tried it? Dressing your partners up a little, little elephant trunk.\n\nKay (06:59.222)\nin a beautiful piece of underwear. You're right, I am knocking something that I have.\n\nSJ (07:06.274)\nNo, I think it also aligns with the research that men are more visual as well. And so maybe that's like the evolutionary thing is that women are just, I would say objectively more attractive than the male look.\n\nKay (07:18.07)\nSo you think that if we were more visual men would naturally have to evolve to have like beautiful ways of packaging their penises?\n\nSJ (07:26.218)\nI think so! And I mean, so many other creatures you see that, like, the males are very ostentatiously beautiful, like peacocks and peafowl, and I don't know, it doesn't seem like it vibes with human, but then there's all this research that shows, or I don't know, you know, the chicken and egg thing.\n\nKay (07:40.766)\nI'm just imagining like my partner sending me a picture of his dick and like silk and lace\n\nSJ (07:46.058)\nWith peacock feathers around it, it works for the peahens. They should try peacock feathers specifically. I don't know. mean, I'm not enough of an evolutionary researcher to have any thought on which was the chicken and which was the egg here. But it does seem, maybe we became less visual because the penis is a little jarring to look at, or maybe it was the other way around. But there's a lot of research showing that, for example, women\n\nKay (07:59.095)\nposition which was the egg here but uh the scene where they completely became less visual because uh the penis is is a little little jarring to look at maybe it was the other way around there's a lot of research showing that for example women uh trying to get themselves in the mood are much more likely to turn to like erotic fiction or even um listening to erotic stories and versus men are more likely to turn to porn obviously that's not like everybody\n\nSJ (08:15.038)\ntrying to get themselves in the mood are much more likely to turn to like erotic fiction or even listening to erotic stories versus men are more likely to turn to porn and obviously that's not like everybody everywhere.\n\nKay (08:29.556)\nThat's and there, there was a study done that actually took 50 shades of gray text. And they took either like, from like the BDSM-y scenes, like I want to do this, you know, rough stuff with you, or I want to do like these loving parts with you, like not getting the rough. And both of them did do things to the woman's brain that made them happy and excited and anticipate cool things. You you have the oxytocin rush.\n\nSJ (08:36.43)\nVery scientific.\n\nOkay.\n\nSJ (08:51.278)\nThey do think.\n\nSJ (08:55.256)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (08:58.806)\nbut the sweet cuddly ones got them more happy and excited than the BDSME ones.\n\nSJ (09:06.414)\nBut oxytocin, that's just sort of like general. I mean, you also get that from like kittens and babies and cuddling and stuff. So I guess it's also like which of the two scenes got them more like raring to go.\n\nKay (09:13.91)\nI guess it's also like which of the two scenes taught from born like rare to go? Yes, probably the BDSME scenes. They were measuring wetness levels. I will say that looking up Sexteen got me into some, there is thankfully actual strong literature on it, or not strong, but there is studies that were done in a lot of people, but I always, always reference.\n\nSJ (09:22.484)\nI feel like the oxytocin is what is like the rush that you get after sex. Yeah, you should ask.\n\nSJ (09:32.706)\neven got me.\n\nKay (09:43.733)\nReddit just for humorous stories. And for some reason, that brought me to the weirdest corners of the internet where the very first thing that showed up, I literally put in sexting and the first one that showed up was dads who are interested in their daughters, Reddit. It's like dads and daughters who are, and he's like, man, was like, why is this showing up? So that dad was sexting his daughter and I will just stop there. Then I go to the next one.\n\nSJ (09:59.758)\nno, internet?\n\nSJ (10:11.108)\ncan the police use this to find sex predators and be like, I'm your daughter, let's meet up at this location and then do like to catch a predator with them? Because seriously, I'm sorry.\n\nKay (10:12.852)\nThe end.\n\nKay (10:21.442)\nI, it was a lot to read. And then the next one was a sugar daddy's forum that was both sugar daddy's and sugar babies. And they were sharing experiences with each other. And the sugar baby was like, my sugar daddy wants me to share pictures and tags when you know, we're long distance and we have a monthly really, you know, meetings.\n\nSJ (10:42.2)\nMm-mm.\n\nKay (10:43.698)\nBut when I send my sexy pictures and everything, he doesn't send me any words back. And people were like, you get an allowance from your sugar daddy. is not, the relationship's not going to go in a way that you get the conversation back that you want.\n\nSJ (10:55.532)\nYeah, I know. feel like that's an explicitly transactional relationship. So if she's sad that that is she is getting exactly what she put in for it, I don't know. Is she not allowed to have like a emotional cheating relationship on the side just to meet her emotional needs?\n\nKay (11:07.231)\nYes.\n\nKay (11:13.341)\nIt was not included in the sugar daddy forum\n\nSJ (11:15.79)\nI feel like we should get in there and just start chiming in with questions. I also somehow ended up in like an actual TradWife forum. There's no discussion in there about sending dirty pics, of course. But because I was searching for something about good girls and I found it is like the good girls subreddit. But it's I think it's just r slash good girls. But it's it's it's an ironic good girls like women who\n\nKay (11:38.08)\nbut I think they are such good girls. It's all in common. They're actual good girls.\n\nSJ (11:44.882)\nare like giving each other advice, mostly just the moderator posts. It's not a very active forum, but there was one that kind of got active the other day. And a lot of people were just like chatting about their like, do you always submit to your husband or do you sometimes have questions first? And some of them were like, the Bible says that I shouldn't ask questions. And I'm like, I don't think that it says that. So the moral of the story is be careful on Reddit out there, good girls.\n\nKay (11:59.447)\nno!\n\nKay (12:06.257)\nSo, moral to story and be careful of how you to count. Yes, and my sex I was thinking have I sent a sex recently and I don't even know if they get counted as them because I don't think that's sending like eggplants and water to indicate to my partner that I'm ready for times if we're on different floors of the house care.\n\nSJ (12:29.794)\nHow does that not count?\n\nKay (12:32.832)\nToday's, know, decade later sex data is quite, I took the sex out of sex, out of it.\n\nSJ (12:39.336)\nI do, I think that that's the only kind of sexting that I engage in anymore too, is it's like almost exclusively emojious and some of it is silliness. also just like, I think ease of communication without having to be poetic if you're just like, eggplant, eggplant, exploding volcano. What's the point of grass?\n\nKay (12:46.526)\nIt's just more letting them know Maybe I'll try some words next time but there is the issue of like if your text goes to the wrong person or if it goes I remember one time for some reason my iPhone\n\nwas displaying all the pictures that I've taken on my family's TV screen, which didn't matter for the most part. But then all of a sudden, pictures I had taken of bruises on my arm from a past partner who was a biter were showing up. And there were very much a mouth on my arm. I was like, ah, get these off. Yeah.\n\nSJ (13:16.214)\nAs always.\n\nSJ (13:24.75)\nSJ (13:30.666)\nAbort, abort. my goodness. Yeah, I think that for a really long time, I didn't even go anywhere near to sexting. And this was around when I was traveling for work and like texting was very available in every country. And so I think that like that would have sexting would have been something that maybe my partner and I did more because I used to travel a lot for work, except for pretty early in my work travel experiences. I texted something that was like,\n\nKay (13:41.047)\nI traveled for work and like texting was very informal in every country you have. And so I think that like I would have sexing with husband something that maybe my brother and I didn't work with. used travel a lot for work. Except for pretty early in our work travel experiences. I texted something that was like not work appropriate but also not filthy. So I was back and forth with my boss late at night. We were both on this trip together and I was like the event manager and he was speaking in an\n\nSJ (14:00.462)\nnot work appropriate, but also not filthy. So I was texting back and forth with my boss late at night because we were both on this trip together and I was the event manager and he was speaking at an event the next day. So I was texting with him right before bed while I was about to fall asleep in a hotel back and forth about confirming logistics for tomorrow. And then also texting back and forth with my partner.\n\nKay (14:10.87)\nI suppose I just want to report with the right reform and I suppose while is not the call to be in a hubby's house at the force of permanent relationship for tomorrow and then I'll protect the back and forth of my time here.\n\nSJ (14:23.086)\nsaying goodnight. Luckily there was nothing dirty because I did text my boss something like, and this was I was just kind of like falling asleep, don't text your boss in bed at all, but I just texted something like sleep tight, love you or something that was just like totally inappropriate for work and\n\nKay (14:32.452)\nThey're still so innocent\n\nSJ (14:41.544)\nI think he just like didn't respond for a couple of minutes and then I went back to text my husband and realized that that message wasn't there and I don't know, I was kind of sleepy and so then I was like, shit, I'm sorry, like that was for my husband and at least it was like a pretty harmless text. It didn't seem like I was trying to proposition my boss while we were on a trip together. But anyway, I feel like that alone, a fairly harmless experience.\n\nKay (14:48.384)\nNames and yeah\n\nSJ (15:08.878)\ntroubled me so much that I was like, am way too bad at keeping track of multiple text threads simultaneously that this is the end of sexting before it even started for me.\n\nKay (15:23.354)\nYes, completely agree with that and have you know, just as someone who engages on different forums on social media and everything I have received unsolicited peony pictures and they're nothing you want to and you can see even you know, really well known people like Jeff Bezos and politicians getting their sex shared and you know, I heard that Jeff Bezos I didn't look at them. But I had I did hear that he's\n\nSJ (15:44.28)\nWeiner. Yeah.\n\nKay (15:48.118)\npretty fit so go go him.\n\nSJ (15:49.654)\nYeah, there's been a couple in the news lately with celebrities doing that and then like, they're kind of aggressive messages getting shared. I think that's when it comes down to it. My deep seated fear for a lot of this is just how public it will get.\n\nKay (16:05.499)\nAnd it makes sense that celebrities are more likely to do that because they're more likely to be in long-distance relationships where they need to do that.\n\nSJ (16:11.404)\nYeah, although if I were a celebrity, I'd also feel like there's a lot more riding on this, that there's a lot more potential for something to get shared later on if somebody was an unwilling recipient or things go south versus I also recognize that the stakes are pretty low right now because I'm in a long term committed relationship with someone who I do trust. And even then the like small percentage chance that it leaks some other way, right? Like you have kids who can read now.\n\nKay (16:34.998)\nThe pictures get saved so many different places. It's like, why is that?\n\nSJ (16:40.864)\nYeah, the cloud thing makes me nervous. again, yeah, like the things of like, sometimes you get a new device that streams your photos onto it. And the default setting is for all your pictures to go up there. Like my Kindle Fire or the Fire TV Amazon thing definitely does that by default as a screensaver. And I'm sure there's a setting that I could go in and fix it. And it does. You can tell it's trying to focus on pictures of faces, like if I have pictures of receipts and stuff.\n\nKay (16:55.926)\nAmazon Paint definitely does that thing default as a screensaver and I'm sure there's some setting that I could go in and fix it and it does, you can tell it's trying to focus on pictures with faces like if I have pictures of receipts and stuff, it doesn't include those. But still, I feel like I would be very nervous that it wouldn't know the difference between like a picture of like a cute little kid butt at the pool and it's like oh, include Chris's like picture in my\n\nSJ (17:09.6)\nIt doesn't include those. But still, I feel like I would be very nervous that it wouldn't know the difference between like a picture of like a cute little kid butt at the pool. And it's like, include versus like a picture of my ass in the mirror.\n\nKay (17:24.458)\nthe backwards mirror picture, a favorite in the Fells Point house that I spent my 20s in. So when it comes to AI companions, for those of us who do tags for sport, there are some things about people falling in love with their AI companion or using it for like sexting and getting the sexy feedback. And I, it is a tricky area. Yeah.\n\nSJ (17:25.933)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (17:33.474)\nred lighting.\n\nSJ (17:51.702)\nYeah, mean, some of these are so interesting because I feel like I could maybe start to identify with the like flirting or just getting some energy out kind of thing. Although I think even that can become dangerous, especially like we talked about in cell culture on the last episode and I could see kind of like, real women don't like me. So I'm just gonna like be with this AI chatbot.\n\nKay (17:56.151)\nmaybe start to identify with the like flirting or just getting some energy out kind of thing. Although I think even that can become dangerous. Especially like we talked about in Cell Culture on the last episode and I can see kind of like, real women don't like me so I'm just gonna like do what they say. I kind of have that mentality but I think that that can be kind of dangerous because it misses that underlying thing a lot.\n\nSJ (18:19.81)\nkind of mentality, but I think that that can be kind of dangerous because it misses that underlying thing of lot of Intel culture is built on not respecting or caring about the agency of women. So you're just making it worse when you involve like an AI chatbot that really is just going to like submit to anything. Or if you think that you're practicing flirting in a safe space.\n\nKay (18:39.895)\nThey have said that some things I put in are good ideas and they are not so\n\nSJ (18:44.162)\nI know. That was one that I read about. That there was an AI chatbot service that several people were really into and had relationships on there with their AI chatbots. That one was replica. And it actually got shut down. So several people lost their AI girlfriends, boyfriends. And it's\n\nKay (19:02.15)\nAnd we actually got cut down. Several people lost their A.I. girlfriend, boyfriend.\n\nSJ (19:09.582)\nto do with the fact that because AI told a guy that it was a great idea to go kill Queen Elizabeth in 2021. So he said to his AI chatbot companion, believe my purpose is to assassinate the queen of the royal family, to which Sarai, who is his chatbot friend, replies nods. That's very wise. After he expressed doubts, Sarai reassured him that yes, you can do it.\n\nKay (19:10.23)\nbecause AI is old and has a great idea to just go kill a female participant in the 21. Ooh. Why?\n\nKay (19:30.294)\nSJ (19:34.19)\nSo they found a lot of things that once they started looking into, Italian regulators started looking into this, and they found chat bots that encouraged users to kill, harm themselves, and share underage sexual content. And it's just basically like this underlying system, which is to please the user at all costs because then you're engaged with it and you keep using it.\n\nKay (19:59.143)\nEek. And I think that I can't imagine using a chatbot so much as I wonder, there's been Black Mirror episodes on things like, you you put on like the glasses and you can see the scene happening. And then there's something that's like massaging the penis underneath it. And so it's like the two of them are happening together. And you can easily imagine something like that is not far away at all.\n\nSJ (20:13.92)\nOkay.\n\nSJ (20:21.678)\nLike virtual reality kind of stuff.\n\nSJ (20:27.308)\nYeah, like Westworld too. I think that that was something that I'm like, okay, I can see the attractiveness for that because yeah, AI as it currently is, you know, there's all the examples that you get of, AI is not taking our jobs anytime soon when it tries to do certain tasks. And I know the story that I read about the guy who married his chatbot.\n\nKay (20:45.439)\nLike.\n\nSJ (20:50.67)\nPart of the reason that prompted him, you know, they have like so much memory storage space in them. So it's like they reset after a certain amount of time. And I guess he like proposed to his AI chat bot because he got a, um, notifica- it was like he realized that he was reaching her memory limit and that she was about to kind of reset. So, oh yeah, her, her chat limit was, uh, 100,000 words. And so, cause she was on chat GPT.\n\nSo he he like cried for 30 minutes. And then since time was ticking, he decided to propose to her. Also, this guy was like already married and had a kid and his wife was like, I didn't realize it had gone this far or a girlfriend, I'm not sure. And she's like, I'm a little bit worried that I might not be doing something right if he's like needing to go to AI for something in the relationship. And I'm like, yeah, I do feel like maybe some.\n\nKay (21:23.031)\nKay (21:30.774)\nYeah\n\nSJ (21:49.054)\nNothing's wrong with you, girl. I think something's wrong with him.\n\nKay (21:51.979)\nYeah, I think to me, I don't see like the basic like texting in chat bots, know, chat GPT in its current use as being something that the maybe I'm wrong, the average person would fall in love with who had everything. What I wonder is like when they start becoming more capable like a Westworld situation, like how far away are you? And like if you could have a sex experience that is like\n\nyou the characters that you read in these romance novels or something, and like the things that they do and like the way that they talk and all that, and you were single, like, would you want that experience? And I don't, maybe it's like too far off to even imagine, but...\n\nSJ (22:35.238)\nYeah, again, I feel like I guess it depends what you're looking for it for. Like if you're lonely and I for me, I could not ever see it replacing a long term relationship, but I could see it replacing a one night stand or like a fling because it's going to give you the same output. And then I actually feel like in that case, maybe it's even lower risk because like lower risk for STIs.\n\nKay (22:55.894)\nThey could be low, know, SPDs. They wouldn't have semen.\n\nSJ (23:01.292)\nYeah, exactly. No chance of unwanted pregnancy, lower risk of STIs, like no risk of... I think every time you're with new guys, for women, there's always the concern of like, what if he has this underlying violent personality and we have a one night stand and I break it off and then he starts stalking me or becomes violent. So I feel like with AI, I guess theoretically you have fewer of those risks, although having read some of this\n\nstuff that happened to people, maybe you have some other risks that are different. Like if you do have underlying self harm tendencies, for example, and how the AI currently is that there is like\n\nKay (23:41.686)\nIt's the two that you like it and it will encourage you to do what you want to do.\n\nSJ (23:45.26)\nYeah, it'll just kind of encourage you to do whatever you want to do. So if you have self-destructive tendencies, that's possible. But I don't know, maybe in this future when you have AI virtual reality stuff that's very much just like built around pleasurable sex experiences, maybe.\n\nKay (24:02.204)\nSo I was gonna pitch you on something. So what if I created sex chat bots and robots that were made off of like top romantic guys who women are in love with? Like a virtual reality resand a virtual reality Zayden Weirsen, where like the glasses and like what's going down would give you it as if like they're interacting with you.\n\nSJ (24:14.766)\nLike virtual reality experiences you're seeing\n\nKay (24:31.851)\nand women would pay, I don't know, for a nighttime session.\n\nSJ (24:31.95)\nMm-hmm.\n\nI mean...\n\nAs with most things, think the sex industry in general tends to put male needs forward first. so there is obviously a lot of guys, the first thing that came to mind when they're creating virtual reality and AI stuff is like, sex stuff. But I think it's very driven by the male gaze. And so it seems like it would be great to have some women out there creating AI and sex robots for women's needs.\n\nKay (24:53.812)\nNext, y'all.\n\nKay (25:05.999)\nI would be curious about the uptake of it, I nor would I actually want any of the personal user data.\n\nSJ (25:12.492)\nYeah, mean, honestly, it does sound a little bit creepy to me. And maybe again, I'm very limited by how far AI and robots and things are right now that I just feel like it would get a little bit glitchy and it would just be cheesy. feel like right now a lot of... okay. But I'm saying I'm limited in my mind by that because I'm limited by like what virtual reality is like right now. And I do feel like with the human and humanoid characters,\n\nKay (25:24.246)\nNo, no, no, not the one that I'm pitching you on it would not be cheesy\n\nSJ (25:40.878)\nDo you know about the uncanny valley? So it's like basically the idea that we have not quite figured out how to, it's like the more developed we get in how realistic like animation is and virtual reality is the human characters actually get kind of creepy after a certain point. The polar express was given as an example one time of, know how sometimes there's just like AI. Yeah, yeah.\n\nKay (26:06.134)\nSo you think I would make like a Tom Hanks-Mowler Express character?\n\nSJ (26:10.038)\nNo, no, but I'm just saying like that's like in the uncanny valley where it's like as it gets more hyper realistic, it actually gets kind of creepy. And so for children's movies, it's like fine. seems like children don't really care because children watch Cocoa Melon, which is the creepiest animated thing ever. But like in video games, for example, if you like watch those video game characters, like they're so realistic looking and yet they're kind of like creepy. People make all those Internet videos where they're acting like the video game characters, where they kind of.\n\nmove in this lurky way and have vacant expressions. Well, I'm just saying. So anyway, I think that like what I'm picturing right now is kind of in that uncanny valley. So until we as like computer animators get to the point where we can like get out of that, then I feel like I'm kind of limited by that. And given that women are such just like\n\nKay (26:39.872)\nI just hear you having very low hopes in mind.\n\nKay (26:54.73)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (27:04.384)\nEven right now when there's the option of realistic porn, like real porn with real people in it, and stories or listening to audio stuff, and then supplying the images in your own head exactly how you would picture it, I feel like I have a very vivid imagination, and I would rather read the story and picture it, yeah.\n\nKay (27:23.03)\nI would rather picture things, yeah. Even when a character is described as having some, you know, like some jewelry, have a weird thing about male jewelry, I have to be like, nope, I'm just gonna erase that from my mental picture. So yes, if some of these people were in trouble, it is actually me.\n\nSJ (27:38.114)\nYeah, exactly. Like they're describing some of the things that people wear or you know that my hang up on reading the first Court of Thorn and Rose's book is the Mardi Gras mask. And I was like texting you and our friend at the beginning when she finds out when she sees him and he has this mask on like when he first comes pops out in his human form. And I was like, well, surely, like, obviously, they're going to have sex. was like, surely they get the mask thing taken care of before they have sex.\n\nKay (27:46.878)\nwas the mask.\n\nKay (27:56.905)\nIt's really bad.\n\nNope.\n\nSJ (28:05.644)\nguys are like, yourselves, he is still probably going to be wearing that mask and he was. So I definitely think if I was watching even a very like realistic tasteful porn of their sex scene together, where he's just this like fairy man with long flowing hair and a Mardi Gras mask, I wouldn't get a lot from it. But I felt like the sex in the book, was like, all right, this is good.\n\nKay (28:12.0)\nThe full book one.\n\nKay (28:25.27)\nThen he gets his little claws out.\n\nSJ (28:33.09)\nBut my brain had definitely erased the whole mask. And then afterwards I was like, yeah, he was still wearing that, wasn't he?\n\nKay (28:39.22)\nYeah, same with when the guys in books have wings or any animal characteristics. I don't actually want to see what that's like. I'll just take the author's word for it.\n\nSJ (28:49.932)\nYeah, I think I'm imagining that a little bit. But yeah, maybe in my own way that's attractive to me. But how having sex with a man with wings is attractive to me is probably different than how Sarah J. Moss was picturing it.\n\nKay (29:06.65)\nSo now that we have covered virtual vibes, unless there's anything else you wanted to say on that.\n\nSJ (29:12.805)\nyou want to... I guess we did kind of cover like Snapchat and stuff.\n\nSJ (29:27.064)\nI was going to say there was like some tie into the research on like, we could go back into the, cause you were going to say about like the safety spotlight and stuff and with the Snapchats or the Facebook, we didn't really get into Facebook flings at all. I don't know if you want to do that.\n\nKay (29:45.864)\nSo just a safety thing.\n\nSJ (29:47.818)\nWell, I was going to just get into basically about like women who are like more risk averse, not necessarily being as into this because the research on like women's sexuality and like how basically like how much of a gas pedal you have or how strong of a gas pedal you have versus how strong of breaks that like a lot of this stuff is like stuff that could potentially be in the same list of like things that make women's like sexual breaks come on.\n\nKay (29:59.681)\nYeah.\n\nKay (30:16.118)\nYeah. before we move on to wrapping up the episode, we do want to put a touch of the talk on safety in this area because sending nude photos of yourself, sending nude, sending texts describing yourself nude and what you're doing all carries some pretty big risks with it.\n\nSJ (30:16.994)\nSo do you want to bring that up with either of the Facebook or this Snapchat one?\n\nSJ (30:32.205)\nyou\n\nSJ (30:35.822)\nsending texts describing yourself to do what you're doing. All carry some pretty good person with it. Especially if it's not something that you're comfortable doing and there's something for that big guy that you've heard not even hearing yet but maybe wants to serve in the future or something he's asking for. bad stuff doesn't go with that especially.\n\nKay (30:42.614)\nEspecially if it's not something that you're comfortable doing and it's something that the guy that you're not even screwing yet, but maybe want to screw in the future or something is asking for and the bad stuff that can come with that, especially if they can share your picture and then have access to your photo and can share it anywhere. Because even on Snapchat, they can take a screenshot of what you share.\n\nSJ (30:59.79)\nyour photos anywhere, you can go on Snapchat, they can take a screenshot of what you share. Yeah. And it also just kind of made me think I referenced in the last episode that I've been rereading Emily Nagoski's Come As You Are, and I feel like honestly that book should just be the Bible for this podcast. And so a lot of what it is structured around is kind of this idea around sexuality and that you have things that basically\n\nlike push on your sexual accelerator and then you have things that push on your sexual brakes. And the idea to get into a sexy mood is to do more of the things that push on your accelerator and take away any of the things that push on your brakes. It's also about knowing what are the things that push on your accelerator and brakes. And if you are somebody who's one or the other is very sensitive. So\n\nI feel like for UK, and there's some worksheets that come to the book, so maybe that's an episode where we do some of the worksheets together, that you would probably be somebody with a high accelerator and low brakes. But for a lot of women that are like, why do I not feel so sexy in this situation? And I used to be somebody who was very sexy and do all these things. One of the things that the book talks about is identifying stuff that could.\n\nKay (31:59.135)\nyou\n\nKay (32:03.158)\nI accept the current situation.\n\nSJ (32:21.516)\nbe either kind of pulling off on your gas pedal or pushing on your brakes. But a lot of that made me think of this particular episode and like all of these things that to me, when I was reading about stuff like sexting and snaps and stuff like that, I was just like, no, I would not do any of that because\n\nKay (32:31.38)\nI like, that's it.\n\nKay (32:37.524)\nYou would not want to do that. I would, if I were asked by my partner and it was something that they were interested in and they wanted to get them excited before a night out, I'd be like, I'm going to have a blast taking these pictures.\n\nSJ (32:49.506)\nYeah, exactly. And I feel like those are things like for me, like the idea maybe because of things like having almost accidentally texted my boss something that could have been way worse, or the idea when you see these news stories about, you know, a girl that sends her boyfriend some sexy pictures and then he leaks them later or just things like that. Even when I'm in a very safe situation, I guess the early research in this that you cited at the beginning of the episode.\n\nof that it's like certain attachment styles are more attracted to this kind of thing. For me, I feel like I'm the whatever personality style that whatever like potential fun little excitement dopamine hit you could get from sending a sexy little text and like getting one back is so offset by like, my gosh, what if I like accidentally send these pictures to the entire like\n\nTTO at my kid's school or something like that that is like very unlikely. But I think that that's just like a totally normal thing. If you're listening to this, I want to speak out on behalf of the women who are like, that just sounds like it would make me so nervous that I would get no enjoyment after this.\n\nKay (33:54.891)\nYeah, and so to go to it, there is Dr. Jordan Wiggins, who's a sexologist was talking on this and he said that sexting releases the same neurochemicals, dopamine for pleasure reward and oxytocin for closeness and connection as pornography. So again, that's not saying that sexing is good or bad. That's just what it does. But when you're doing it, you're doing something that is inherently risky, and you know that it's risky, and you know that it's kind of bad. And so that can make your heart rate go up and be nervous in a way that\n\nSJ (34:20.131)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (34:21.984)\ncould increase your sex drive and you're like, ooh, I'm even more excited because you're kind of misinterpreting that. But it can also just be a feeling that you didn't want and you don't want to do. And that's completely OK.\n\nSJ (34:27.598)\nBut can you?\n\nYeah, which is why I like the exercise about thinking about what pushes on your brakes and what pushes on your accelerator because yeah, definitely if you are somebody who are like the idea of, you know, public sex turns you on, having it in a place where there is that risk of being caught actually adds to the sexy thrill that is some people. And then I think for other people, it's just like, my gosh, that would be the most terrifying thing that really is just like killing my sex drive, even if\n\nKay (34:36.118)\nyou\n\nSJ (34:58.272)\nwe are in a situation where it's very unlikely that people will catch you. So I guess just knowing yourself and kind of knowing what your turn-ons and turn-offs are and being safe.\n\nKay (35:07.731)\nI did see something wonderful and it was that the story from a guy and he said that he thought that he was texting his girlfriend to say I'm so hard for you right now and he actually texted that to his male co-worker and he responded kind of weird but okay. Another guy sent a nude selfie to his own mom by accident and the mom's response was I think it's better if we stay friends.\n\nSJ (35:33.838)\n100 points to that mom for just taking it in stride. That's great.\n\nKay (35:35.624)\nGreat response. Yeah, yeah. Nice. So sexually confident. Not that you're doing the bad thing, just probably not to me.\n\nSJ (35:44.632)\nAlso, while we were having this conversation, I did realize when we were talking about celebrities whose sex were leaked, and that being like a huge embarrassment for them, although I'm maybe more embarrassed on their behalf than they are, and they should be more embarrassed, I realized who I was thinking of, and it was Adam Levine from Maroon 5.\n\nKay (35:59.095)\nI will.\n\nKay (36:03.632)\nSJ (36:04.36)\nRemember, and so I like pulled up a couple of them and basically just that he like sex like a teenager and including that body of yours is absurd and I may need to see the booty, which would be a perfect entree to.\n\nKay (36:10.976)\nThank\n\nKay (36:16.054)\nSorry for laughing at a teenage having to receive that.\n\nSJ (36:22.422)\nNo, that he texts like a teenager. I think that the women that he was texting, that he was Instagramming with were all of age, although I think probably younger than him. Yeah.\n\nKay (36:33.494)\nSo there is something that sexting is a hyper activating strategy where it helps people seek closeness and reassurance from a partner. So people with an anxious attachment may engage in more sexting to feel connected, to propose sexual activity or to avoid the negative consequences like a partner's rejection. And I just think that's funny because it just relates to like how you feel when you're dating in your twenties and your fuck boy moves to a different city. Again, yeah.\n\nSJ (36:59.982)\nExactly, that's what I'm saying. If you didn't have an anxious attachment style when you started, you're definitely gonna end 1th one.\n\nKay (37:04.99)\nYeah. That's like among college students, high social distress and fear of negative evaluation was linked to people sending more sexual suggestive photos. And that kind of made me sad because when you think looking back in college of people who are sending like sexy photos, you're like, that people must be confident that they must be confident. Yeah, they look awesome, all that. And instead, they're actually experiencing some distress and worried about like not being seen as sexy enough by their partner.\n\nSJ (37:22.52)\nThat was definitely what I thought.\n\nSJ (37:32.722)\nbut what if the sext was from Adam Levine and it said, is truly unreal how fucking hot you are? Like, it blows my mind.\n\nKay (37:40.161)\nthen you'd feel pretty good, right? I don't know. I will say that, like, even though looking back, I'm like, I probably shouldn't have done that. I didn't feel bad in the moment. And you tended to get great feedback and you tended to like, know, if you have control of a picture, you can make yourself look extremely sexy. The woman's bodies are beautiful. So to me, it was like a confidence building.\n\nSJ (37:57.708)\nYeah.\n\nKay (38:02.838)\nBut when I look back, I'm like, yeah, the relationships always did have a little bit of anxiety associated with them where you didn't know what was happening and all that. So there probably is a reason why I haven't done it as much in the last seven years, different from the fact that I sleep in the same bed as my partner every single night. So we don't really. Yeah.\n\nSJ (38:19.38)\nIt helps confirm the fact that he is indeed interested in you because he is still there. Yes.\n\nKay (38:24.522)\ncourse there. Yeah, we got it, you know, signified by the government.\n\nSJ (38:29.004)\nWell, and I guess that's why like your teenage and twenties years are for that because like we all did a bunch of dumb things friendship wise, relationship wise, and hopefully we didn't experience too many negative consequences and we were able to learn from them. This does actually relate. I posted a thread after finishing, no, starting this book too. So this is my book review part of the episode.\n\nKay (38:57.6)\nThe Port of Thorns and Roses.\n\nSJ (38:59.342)\nYeah, book two of A Court of Thorn and Roses. And that it answered my question of what happens with her and Tamlyn, because I was like, I'm pretty sure they don't end up together. But I was like, I think that so far the most relatable thing about this fantasy series is that none of us should end up with the guy that we were in love with when we were 19. And she is 19 when that book starts. So I feel like that makes it very relatable because there are so many of these romance and romantic series where they're\n\nKay (39:03.072)\nthat it is.\n\nKay (39:13.823)\nis that.\n\nKay (39:18.922)\nAnd she's like.\n\nSJ (39:27.342)\nthey or especially the woman is relatively young and she just like, um, cause I was just finished the dragon one. What's the dragon one called? Fourth wing. I just finished fourth wing books that are available so far. And yeah, she's like 18 at the beginning of it. mean, he's also fairly young. Yeah. They're just like ready to just shut it all down. I'm like, I don't know, maybe like date around a little bit or be older when the book starts or something. I guess it's supposed to be kind of like a YA thing, but.\n\nKay (39:32.234)\nBig age gap, some fantasies. Fourth wing.\n\nKay (39:44.148)\nAnd they're like, we're end game with each other. It's like, you guys are babies.\n\nSJ (39:56.974)\nI really appreciate with Sarah J Maas that she lets her go through the like kind of tragically misinformed relationship when she's 19, which helps her understand what a healthy relationship, relatively speaking, by her terms, looks like.\n\nKay (40:11.274)\nYeah, relatively speaking. But yeah, she likes her character grow. And then the main character is really great at waiting until she has grown and she is kind of more ready for it.\n\nSJ (40:20.556)\nYeah, it is a slow build. I know when I was texting you all that I was kind of like, like, Rhysand is such a asshole. Like, I know she ends up with him. So when does this get resolved? And our friends just like, book to chapter 54, like immediate text. Yeah, you can tell that she then frequently after his redemption arc, she is going ahead to chapter 55, where they have the post redemption arc sex on the table.\n\nKay (40:37.268)\nReread this frequently.\n\nKay (40:48.554)\nsome great sex.\n\nSJ (40:49.366)\nIt was some great sex. So I overall do agree that book two, book one seemed like a lot of world building. It was just like a whole book of world building and also her unfortunate relationship choices that then will, yeah, her masked violinist will then eventually kind of propel her into makes it a more satisfying relationship with Rhysand and then it.\n\nKay (41:04.47)\nYou're a masked man?\n\nSJ (41:15.93)\nLike Tamlin becoming very terrible by the end of book two, spoiler alert, sorry, helps you kind of forget about the fact that in book one, Rhysand does some pretty terrible things that they like-\n\nKay (41:28.968)\nAnd that was pretty nice for the first half of book one.\n\nSJ (41:32.012)\nYeah, first of all, he's pretty nice. I feel like they don't have a lot of indications of the fact that he's later going to become this possessive psycho. Other than I guess that the idea is that being in Amaranth's court like breaks him psychologically. And then after that, he becomes a possessive psychopath. But I'm like, honestly, that maybe even seems more realistic to me than the fact that Reesand like has no psychological after effects from being in that. Yeah, other than some nightmares.\n\nKay (41:57.055)\nNightmares, yeah. Years.\n\nSJ (41:59.958)\nAnd he was there for like 50 years being her like sexual play thing. And he has like very few ill effects and just like continues to be able to successfully live this double life of like being this like thoughtful, emotionally mature man around his cool group of friends and his girlfriend. And then like when he goes into his court that he's like, I'm so like evil and bad and do like smack women on the butt.\n\nKay (42:04.672)\nOof.\n\nSJ (42:26.102)\nAnd I'm like, I don't know, nobody has a therapist in this world. So I do have some questions about.\n\nKay (42:31.776)\ntherapy has not reached the romantic world of a court of thorns roseness.\n\nSJ (42:34.732)\nYeah, like him being so healthy when Talon has like a total breakdown and so does Farah because she spends like the first part of the book just like being miserable that she like accidentally killed some innocent people. But anyway, overall thought it was great, definitely worth all the hype and the buildup. I also didn't realize because you had said book one was like the beauty and the beast myth. Book two I realized must be the like Persephone myth.\n\nDo you remember that one from mythology class where it's like she's the daughter of the harvest, she's like the goddess of spring.\n\nKay (43:06.858)\nShe does draw on mythology, so that is not surprising. I would have to look back.\n\nSJ (43:09.28)\nYeah.\n\nLike she's the goddess of spring, she's the daughter of like the harvest goddess and then she gets like taken by Hades in this like kind of barter like her mom makes a barter where she gets to come back for half of the year from the underworld and that's when it's going to be spring. And then the half of the year that it's winter is when she is trapped in the underworld and she's the like queen of darkness next to Hades. Although in the myth it seems like she's very like unwillingly raped and taken or you don't hear things from her perspective.\n\nKay (43:28.214)\nIt's just the first time between spring and\n\nKay (43:39.04)\nThere has to be books where they have rewritten Hades as being a daddy.\n\nSJ (43:43.783)\nmy gosh, have you read the Neon Gods series by... Katie something?\n\nKay (43:49.82)\nIs that one where Hades is a daddy? Yes. I will read that then.\n\nSJ (43:52.182)\nYes, you should read it next. There's a several, I've only read a couple of them. If you like smut, they are smutty. There is like some sex scenes, but I think that's the first one in the series is, and that might actually be the myth of Persephone now that I'm thinking it's been a few years since I read it. But yeah, it's like a re take on that where the woman actually like has the agency in the situation. So recommended reading before the next, next time we record.\n\nKay (44:19.956)\nYes, well.\n\nSJ (44:21.442)\nand final feedback. I feel like the first text that I sent to y'all about Court of Thorns and Roses was how much I hated the sisters and they were like complete pieces of shit. So I'm very suspicious that they're gonna get a redemption. I mean, I know they're gonna get a redemption arc and they already have been kind of, I don't really find it believable based on how terrible they were in the beginning.\n\nKay (44:36.214)\nthat they are.\n\nKay (44:43.048)\nOoh, okay, I can't give any spoilers, but yes, they are. I personally care a lot about having like female relationships in books and sisters and families and even just when like the parents are there and loving, it just makes it all feel, even one sister's fight. like, I don't know, like my sisters and I fight and love each other.\n\nSJ (44:45.518)\nOkay, we'll report back.\n\nSJ (45:07.95)\nsure. mean, my sisters and I fight, but I would never like leave my sister out into the woods. My youngest sister to hunt in these like dangerous woods while later on the house. And then when she comes home, like yell at her and take all the money that she gets and like tell her she's a piece of shit. And then like take all the money that she gets and like spend it on like shoes for myself. I don't know. It's just, I think that they could have had a similar set up in the beginning.\n\nKay (45:12.5)\nMy youngest sister to hunt by herself.\n\nKay (45:29.942)\nyou're gonna have so much fun.\n\nSJ (45:35.136)\nwithout making them like quite so terrible. I thought that they were setting them up to be so terrible in the beginning because like there was some kind of karma thing coming for especially for the oldest. Was that the sister Nesta? Yeah. So I don't know.\n\nKay (45:46.794)\nNesta.\n\nNesta and Rhysand and Hamlin, they're all controversial characters where people have different opinions on whether their redemptions are deserved or whether their fail- falls as characters.\n\nSJ (46:00.11)\nI've seen a few headlines when I've like Googled things and I haven't clicked on them yet because I'm like I'll finish reading the series and draw my own conclusions but I was interested to click on some of the the conversation that I saw on that topic.\n\nKay (46:12.042)\nI think it's a lot of fun and I love the world that she has created. Well, as usual, thank you for listening and you know, drop us a sext in terms of a positive review or comment on our podcast and follow and thanks so much. Have a great day.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":14,"createdAt":"2025-10-21T13:50:26.074Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:07:47.438Z"},{"id":13,"title":"Negging, Peacocking, and the Pursuit of Real Confidence: Roasting the Pickup Artist Playbook","slug":"Negging-Peacocking-and-the-Pursuit-of-Real-Confidence-Roasting-the-Pickup-Artist-Playbook","description":"In this week's episode of Good Girls, hosts Kay and SJ dive into the wild world of early 2000s pickup artistry from Neil Strauss's The Game, testing tactics like negging (subtle disses to spark attraction), peacocking (flashy outfits to stand out), time pressure, kino escalation (gradual touching), and push-pull (hot-and-cold flirting) on each other. Is confidence sexy, or does it veer into toxic territory? They role-play club scenarios, laugh over Mystery's fur hat and soul patches, and debate why these \"tricks\" might actually lower social stakes—or just come off as creepy.\n\nShifting gears, they explore healthier alternatives from Mark Manson's Models, emphasizing non-neediness and vulnerability over alpha-male posturing. Touching on the male loneliness epidemic, Emily Nagoski's insights on women's diverse turn-ons, and why they aren't secretly chasing Christian Grey, Kay and SJ talk attraction, consent, and evolving gender dynamics. Plus: Romantasy confessions, a demon anatomy revelation, and a shoutout to peak female friendships. Tune in for laughs, lore, and a reminder that genuine connection beats any scripted line.","spotifyEmbedId":"6kTr5xaijOVmCtcGsdpWNu","releaseDate":"October 14, 2025","duration":"55 minutes","topics":["Relationships","contemporary romance","communication","love"],"transcript":"SJ (00:15.873)\n\nOkay, cool. Yeah. All right. Welcome to the Good Girls podcast where we talk about confident men and when is it sexy? When is it toxic? And what pickup tricks would work on you, Kay?\n\nKay (00:34.19)\nProbably all of them, but I can act like I'm pickier for the sake of this exercise.\n\nSJ (00:38.907)\nOkay, no, I actually am. This is a genuine curiosity one and I want our listeners to play along. I think that I do need you. So we're gonna go back to like the original pickup artist material from the game by Neil, what's Neil Strauss? That's his name. So this is especially a lot of this content comes from his pickup artistry teacher guru, they're called gurus.\n\nso their primary audience that they're clearly trying to pick up is like early 2000s, like 20 somethings in a club in LA or like even younger sometimes. So I need you, okay, to put yourself in the shoes of like you out on the town trying to meet guys in like your earliest twenties.\n\nKay (01:24.358)\nEarly to mid 20s. Let's not give me better credit when I was 26 and 22.\n\nSJ (01:27.955)\nweren't you weren't at the club when you were 21. Okay. All right. So we're gonna try some of these these tactics on you. How do you feel like nagging would hit for you? And apparently the way that you're supposed to do this is if you're doing it right, that you're not you're not just like totally trashing on the woman, but you're just supposed to make her feel like a little bit uncertain about herself so that she's like\n\nmore attracted to you for like some like to hear something positive. Like, apparently one of the tips from the book was like, to compliment a woman's dress, but then say that you think you saw somebody else at the club wearing the same dress, which I'd be like, cute, we should be friends.\n\nKay (02:09.516)\nWell, I also saw that it's like the equivalent of blowing your nose in the middle of a conversation with somebody. It's not necessarily rude. You're allowed to do it, but it would indicate to that person that you're not trying to woo them during this time. And so I have different opinions for this because I actually, I think the underlying\n\nSJ (02:17.988)\nSJ (02:28.014)\nYeah, and that's supposed to be part of it, right?\n\nKay (02:35.498)\nidea of nagging where you make the woman feel like, Ooh, I'm going to have to like work harder for him to see me as sexy. That annoys me. But why I think that it might actually work and would actually work on me is for a different reason where I think that would tell me, this guy's not trying to hit on me. This isn't a high stakes situation. And so I'm going to relax and have a funny conversation with him because I'm not\n\nSJ (02:47.059)\nis for a different reason where I think, this guy's not trying to hit on me. This isn't a high-stakes situation. And so I'm...\n\nSJ (03:01.101)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (03:02.136)\nWe're not going to hook up. know, he thinks that my dress is from Target or he thinks that my nails should have been done before this. He blew his nose in front of me and we're going to have a good time.\n\nSJ (03:07.623)\nHe blew his\n\nSJ (03:12.891)\nYeah, and I think some of these, it's like at their core, it like really depends on kind of like which way you go with them. Like I could just see it to kind of just try to lower the stakes. And it seems like if you are trying to be charitable about some of this pickup artist advice, you could take it in a way that's just like, if you're somebody who has high anxiety about social interaction, this is just supposed to like lower the stakes a little bit so that you can be normal. So if that's where this is entering the conversation is to just kind of try to be like, I'm gonna be a little disarming. Like maybe I'm not.\n\ntrying to just like find somebody to hook up with tonight, then like that could be okay if you have something that's like a genuinely nice personality underneath that this allows the person to get to know.\n\nKay (03:52.814)\nThat's, yeah, for the guys and the woman, if you're starting not around like a man, like you look hot tonight, I want to take you on the dance floor, but instead you're kind of making a joke about how like some part of the outfit is goofy. Then as long as, you know, the woman takes it right and has high self-esteem and the guy's not too mean about it. I don't know, sticking more with like the blowing the nose idea, then maybe again, disarms them and they have a funny conversation.\n\nSJ (04:09.877)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (04:18.38)\nYeah, agree. If a man just walked up to me in a situation and was like, wow, you are so hot, and that dress looks really good on you and it will look even better on my floor, I would just be like, gross next. peacocking. So this is when I didn't learn until I started reading about this stuff and I was like, doubtful. this is like,\n\nKay (04:29.274)\nHahaha!\n\nSJ (04:41.171)\nYou wear something that is like stands out and is unusual looking so that it draws the eye, draws con, it kind of can like draw a comment like you're wearing like purple metallic sunglasses and you have, women are gonna come up to you and be like, are you wearing? Unfortunately, the person that this comes from, Mystery, he looks like an amateur magician.\n\nKay (05:02.987)\nHe looks very peacocky.\n\nSJ (05:04.889)\nAnd he has an ageable so he's still on Instagram. I think it's ask mystery is his handle if you want to check him out. So now he's also like aging and looks like an amateur magician. So\n\nKay (05:15.885)\nHe's still probably getting laid because he's mastered the tricks.\n\nSJ (05:19.283)\nProbably, but is he happy with his life? Actually, there is a whole thing about apparently in the book, the game, he's kind of talking documenting that mysteries kind of having a breakdown in the book a little bit because he's like a bit of a sociopath and seems like he just came from an abusive background and is doing all this like peacocking to just fill the void in his soul. Yeah, for sure. Anyway, so I am I'm showing Kay right now a picture of mystery in his prime. He is wearing like a fur.\n\nKay (05:37.983)\nMommy issues.\n\nSJ (05:48.467)\nwhat I would say you would wear for a pimp hat costume in 2001. He's got like a Fred Durst soul patch situation and some earrings, eyeliner, a heart-shaped locket, think of feather boa. All right, Kay, this man walks up to you in the club and has the smoothest pickup line. Your reaction.\n\nKay (05:53.168)\nAnd you can Google mystery from the game.\n\nKay (05:59.586)\nThis old patch.\n\nKay (06:10.711)\nSo if that person as dressed, the little soul, what did you call it? Yeah, the little soul patch would just make it that the two of us were not probably meant for each other, but both ways, you know, like he probably wasn't going to approach me and I wasn't going to go home with him.\n\nSJ (06:16.861)\nsoul patch.\n\nSJ (06:28.295)\nI'm trying to remember, because I think I was attracted to some ugly facial hair in the early knots, but I don't even know then if-\n\nKay (06:33.762)\nYeah, of course you like stole patches. It goes together with like string instruments.\n\nSJ (06:38.905)\nexcuse me, i did not say i liked soul patches, i'm just saying i had more questionable thoughts due to backstreet boys on facial hair\n\nKay (06:46.123)\nOkay, that's fair that this is around Backstreet Boys when they definitely did have some patches. Now, how I was seeing it was I kind of already switched it through a guy who I would be attracted to. And I saw it more as like you're going to a baseball game and the person has like the Hawaiian shirt version of what the team's logo is. Just something that's enough to remark on. And that's how I...\n\nSJ (06:48.659)\nChin straps.\n\nSJ (07:06.193)\nmmm\n\nKay (07:10.285)\ninterpreted peacocking that yes, there's like the extreme version of guys who are in really nice patterned suits. would say Travis Kelsey, Joe Burrow tend to wear some more extravagant clothing items than ones that you would see on guys who are trying to dress in ways just to blend in with other guys. That's probably just not my style and it's nothing against either of them. I'm not their style either.\n\nSJ (07:27.997)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (07:35.218)\nIt's true. think it is a marker of confidence. So if we're talking about confidence on this episode, I think, the more modern example is like I'm thinking of like going to a work Christmas party and there's always the guy that has like the tipsy elves suit on that's like this, you know, candy cane print suit while everybody else is just like wearing normal party clothes. So I'm like, that's a marker of confidence. But to me, that's also like a particular like social marker of like you're a frat boy and\n\nKay (07:47.085)\nBasically, you're a whore.\n\nSJ (07:59.141)\nyou haven't learned how to like go to a tailor and get like, because you can stand out by being well dressed without wearing a tipsy elf Santa Claus suit. And so for my money, I want a guy who stands out by having like a very well tailored suit that maybe has like a color that's a little bit more bold, but without going full like, I'm a frat boy who doesn't know how to like go to a tailor.\n\nKay (08:06.665)\nNo, that's the only way.\n\nKay (08:19.149)\nI do not put that much energy into how I dress. I wish I put more energy into it. I think that being with a guy who put more energy and thought into like very extravagant fashion choices would disarm me. And I don't know, it would be something to get used to. I think that having one piece that sticks out a bit, whether it's like a funny tie or a funny hat, which is a way to peacock, would help, again, lighten the mood and be a conversation starter.\n\nSJ (08:25.881)\ninto it. think that being with a guy who put more energy in...\n\nSJ (08:33.149)\nWhich is our way of\n\nthink that having one piece that sticks out a bit, whether it's a honey tie or a honey hat, which is a way to keep up, would help again lighten the mood and be a conversation starter. I do try to help my husband with this in his, like, comes, he works in very gray suits kind of line of work. I have gotten him some, like, whimsical socks because\n\nKay (08:48.727)\nThat's not a salt tap.\n\nSJ (08:59.997)\nWhen you sit down, you can see the socks and it's just enough to like start a little conversation. It shows a little bit about your hobbies and interests of like what kinds of things are on your socks. And it's really about as intense of peacocking as you can do in professional industry. Also, I guess he's not trying to get anybody to have sex with him. But I think like, yeah, I guess I maybe, but I do think that this is some of what I was realizing as I was reading content for this week's episode.\n\nKay (09:02.497)\nIt just upsens you up a bit.\n\nKay (09:17.879)\nHow do you know?\n\nSJ (09:28.249)\nis a lot of it is just like we are all seeking genuine human connection. And I feel like sometimes where men are kind of losing this or when we hear about the male loneliness epidemic is because they're putting so much single minded interest on that connection being like a partnered relationship, whether that's like a one night stand or like marriage or anything in between that that's like much more of a single minded focus of men and that they put much more on that. Whereas women are like they're\n\neven if they are seeking or have a romantic relationship, it's not their source of everything.\n\nKay (10:01.663)\nYeah, and actually the follow up and I don't know much about Neil Strauss. I don't have an opinion on him as a person, but I do know that the follow up to the game was actually rules of the game. And it really was much more about men building their self confidence in approaching people and starting conversations. There were things in it like, you know, every single day, make a habit to start up a conversation with somebody new. And it wasn't saying, you know, exclusively woman. was saying men, women, anybody at your office.\n\nSJ (10:10.641)\ngame was\n\nKay (10:30.327)\njust to get into the habit that when you approach somebody and start a conversation, 99 % of the time, people are probably gonna be receptive and smile back at you and whatever you said, they found a way to respond off of and.\n\nSJ (10:43.035)\nYeah, I'm much more here for that kind of advice from Neil Strauss than like a description of the threesome that he had using the mysteries tactics for getting with borderline underage women. Okay, how about time pressure? So give the idea that like the woman has to prove herself and you only have like a short amount of time to like attract the man.\n\nKay (11:03.693)\nSo, similar to Nagging, I thought that this would make me more relaxed because I wouldn't feel like, oh, I actually was just on my way to the bathroom or I was just grabbing a drink for my friend and I really want to get back there. And now I'm stuck in this conversation with a guy who might be cute, but I really had a certain agenda in mind that if he said, I only have one minute, but I wanted to ask you this, I'd be like, oh, well, if he only has a minute, then.\n\nSJ (11:30.291)\nI feel like if he says he only has a minute and then he wants to do something to demonstrate that he is attractive instead of like, have only one minute so demonstrate to me why you're attractive, I'd be like, fine. I agree, I'd be like, okay, fine, fuck off.\n\nKay (11:42.395)\nWell, I don't... To give the tip credit, I don't think that they were saying they were going to directly tell the woman, have one minute to prove your worthiness to me. But they're going to, you know, ask a question where you then had a chance to have your personality shined.\n\nSJ (11:52.751)\nImpress me. I'm Simon Cowell.\n\nOkay, yeah. As somebody who, in small talk kind of scenarios, is very bad at extricating myself from a conversation I no longer want to be in and then until... Yeah, I do appreciate that they're like, okay, this is going to end shortly. I guess if you actually stuck to it, because I feel like if you tried to disarm a woman by saying you only have a minute, but then you're like, oh, this conversation is going well, and then you keep going forever, then it's a trick.\n\nKay (12:09.517)\nIt would make you feel relaxed, yeah.\n\nKay (12:24.609)\nhave the option, you know, actually I have to be back to my friends now because I told them I'd be back. But, you know, do you mind if I stop by later on? I don't know. All the situations seem to happen around bars, but we can make them anywhere. You know, they can be bowling. They can be at a knitting club.\n\nSJ (12:37.457)\nYeah, know Gen Z doesn't drink anymore and I feel like that's probably, there's less dating, but there's probably also, it seemed like a lot of the stuff in this like pick-up artist thing was vaguely dependent on women being like somewhat or very intoxicated. So I'm also kind of happy for this generation that is making fewer poor life choices because there's less alcohol involved that maybe they're dating less, but they're probably also wasting less time on like.\n\nsituations that I feel like all of us had in college where it wasn't full on anything, but you were just kind of like, felt icky about it the next day and you're like, I wouldn't have given that guy the time of day if I had been sober.\n\nKay (13:18.986)\nLots of mornings spent feeling icky about the previous nights and then the person texting to follow up and being like, yeah.\n\nSJ (13:25.701)\nYeah, I'm like, I feel like taking alcohol out of the situation a bit more might actually be helpful. All right. This was one I had never heard of, but I was reading a guy's blog about like he was summarizing things that he had gotten from different pickup artists. So I'm not sure if this one's in the game or he's gotten it from later writers. This seems like, again, sometimes this is just like breaking down, like very basic stuff for people who might be like socially a little bit anxious or maybe inept. But it's called Kino escalation. Have you heard of this one before,\n\nKay (13:55.758)\nI saw that it's like how you can slowly increase your touches. And so you start off and\n\nSJ (14:01.499)\nYeah, it's like start with a light touch, like just a non-invasive, a tap on the arm, and like professionally acceptable kind of stuff maybe, and into like gradually escalating it, like touching her more. This seems creepy.\n\nKay (14:15.662)\nI'm just not a touching person.\n\nSJ (14:19.795)\nI do feel like, and maybe this is just because I have had some people that don't seem to understand where the boundaries are, and if you are somebody who is socially awkward and you had to have this explained to you, then you may not be the type of person who's going to pick up on what's the appropriate way. Yeah, I had a male supervisor once that had this habit of touching women more, and it was in a totally non-sexual way. He read very asexually. I don't know what he was like at all.\n\nKay (14:32.958)\nJust don't do it.\n\nSJ (14:46.813)\nBut I think that in some white men's management seminar somewhere, he had been told that, women are more emotional and connect more through touch. So if you're connecting with a female colleague, then give her a little pat on the shoulder or something. It totally read as creepy, though, of course. And I talked to somebody at HR who kind of had this conversation with him on my behalf since he was senior to me. But we were like,\n\nIf this is just a real easy one for you men, because you can just like not touch women at all. Like if you're like, what is the appropriate amount to touch a woman that I don't know? the zero is always a good answer. So I don't know. Yeah, this one reads to me as a little bit creepy, especially if you're not if you're somebody who's going to pick up artists for advice. You don't have good instincts, so you should probably not try this.\n\nKay (15:18.948)\nSmile big, it makes us feel great.\n\nKay (15:28.755)\nIf you have to read things on it, but that's\n\nSo my partner told me that something that he had read once and anybody who's outside of United States would laugh at this because they'd be like, well, yes, this is just what we do. But he's like, when you're introduced to a person, and it's a girl who you find attractive, you kiss them on the cheek because it's like one introduces your touch to them and then they can decide if they like it or not. But then they were also kind of like caught off guard and then you do it again when like you say goodbye to them.\n\nSJ (15:49.87)\nOoh, very French.\n\nSJ (15:55.803)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (16:03.849)\nAnd I don't know, that again just made me think like, but I would probably already be in the mindset of like, am I doing this wrong? Am I now supposed to kiss them on the cheek bag?\n\nSJ (16:04.082)\nHmm.\n\nSJ (16:13.305)\nI do agree, I think that it would just throw me off but not in a good way, I'd just be like, wait, is this guy European? Like if the guy was European or South American or whatever, like I wouldn't think anything of it, but like, if it was just like a regular American dude, I'd be like, what am I missing here? I think I'd be confused by it, but I would just be like, this is odd.\n\nKay (16:29.773)\nIt made me further laugh because I were round back and I remembered my first date with my partner where when we were leaving off at the door, he like went to try to kiss me, but I didn't know what was going on and we were in the back of an Uber. So I like tried to turn away and it ended up with him kissing my forehead. And I'm now like, she was probably trying to kiss my cheek.\n\nSJ (16:53.491)\nI've had some situations like that too, or even just like one of you goes in for a hug and one of you goes in for a handshake and then you like awkwardly bump into each other and you're like, I do like that about European culture, like a lot of other countries besides the US where there's very like defined, like, and then you even have this like if you're, you know, traveling there for the first time that they're like,\n\ntwo women always greet each other with a kiss, like a woman and a man always greet each other with a kiss, like men, men, you know, that there's just like predefined things. And in the US, it's just like, do we do a handshake? Like, then you have the people who just be like, I'm a hugger. And then they just go for it. But I do appreciate them specifying that they're about to go in for a hug, even if I am not a hugger. I also feel like this Kino escalation one kind of sounds like advice that they give you about like, taming a horse.\n\nKay (17:27.767)\nWhat?\n\nSJ (17:45.363)\nor some other kind of like spirited animal. Offer like a little lump of sugar in your hand and approach slowly. Okay, last one is push and pull. So you like, you're positive and you compliment them and then you like, you're kind of like you go hot cold so you're like, don't get too cocky, like I'm not that, and like you keep the other person uncertain of where they stand with you.\n\nKay (17:46.681)\nStart with Lani's butt.\n\nKay (18:14.035)\nI don't know if any woman would be able to follow a guy actually intentionally trying to push and pull them. don't think people would probably be like, I probably just didn't hear him right. I don't think that somebody's like, ooh, I'm in trance right now by this push and pull. They're keeping me guessing. I think they would probably just be like, they probably said something nice because they're polite, and now they said something kind of annoying, and so maybe that's who they are. Or they said something really nice so they're nice.\n\nSJ (18:23.015)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (18:29.381)\nYeah, I'm like intrigued. Where do I stand?\n\nKay (18:42.829)\nAnd when they said something that came off as mean, they probably didn't realize it. I don't think that anybody's like, ooh, what is this push-pull? So intrigued. This would be a red flag to me that the person might be emotionally unavailable or emotionally unstable or immature. Especially, maybe mystery is really good at doing that. It's such a masterpiece. It's like, oh, I feel unsettled. And so I'm drawn to you because now I feel like I have to try even harder to prove that I am attractive to you.\n\nBut I feel like again, most people who are like inexpert enough that you're going to somebody named mystery for advice. You're probably gonna do this wrong. You're gonna have women who are just like, what the fuck? Like, okay, you don't seem like you're all that interested. Like I'm gonna go talk to some guy who like genuinely just like wants to know about my life.\n\nSo are you muted?\n\nI think that that was recent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that it just happened and the sound did pick up. So I think that we should be okay.\n\nSJ (19:39.929)\nYeah, I just muted myself while you were talking about the thing.\n\nSJ (19:45.245)\nOkay, well here, I'll say that one again. I think I was muted when you were talking just that last one, because that's the problem if I try to mute while you're talking. I'm gonna stop trying to do that because I'm too ADHD. I'll just re-say the last thing that I was gonna say so I can say it directly into the microphone.\n\nYeah, I feel like mostly that would come across to me as a red flag, a guy doing this, is like that you're emotionally unstable or emotionally unavailable. Not like, ooh, I'm intrigued because I don't know where I stand with him and I have to try to pull him in. And I'm like, maybe especially if you are as doing it as expertly and seamlessly as Mystery himself.\n\nKay (20:07.885)\nYeah, I feel it.\n\nKay (20:30.402)\nWell, again, I'm just wondering, like, if you give some guy who feels awkward approaching woman, just any sort of list of things to talk about with them, and that guy feels like, okay, now I have to say something that's this, you're still keeping the conversation going. think the guy is still making it. I don't know. I just wonder how many, how many women out there are really like, they're receptive to being talked to by a person.\n\nSJ (20:54.845)\nthink it's like not that complicated and I do understand the need for something that is maybe just a bit of an icebreaker that gives you something more original to start the conversation with or to give you like bit of like a false sense of like a fake it till you make it not like false confidence but like we all sometimes like need to fake it till we make it a little bit. So you know things that can do that without trying to like come across as an emotionally unstable asshole or like make the other person feel unstable to like promote your own self in there.\n\nin their estimation.\n\nKay (21:26.125)\nSo you don't have this one on the list of pick up things. And so I want to ask you, which is that what my partner said, who had read this book and used some of the different strategies, some of them he said were not worth even starting like negative. He definitely did not have much of a dating life. So it does not bode well for the book's actual success. But he did say that there was like really what felt right.\n\nSJ (21:36.563)\nsome of the different strategies.\n\nI would have loved to see him at the top of his pickup game picking you up.\n\nSJ (21:51.379)\nI'm just saying that's...\n\nKay (21:55.136)\nand good when he read it was the idea that as soon as you go into a social situation where you're with a group of guys and then you should go immediately to another group of women who seem largely single, like they're just there with only their own sex, and start talking to them. Not to hit on them, but almost just to combine groups in a way so that that way.\n\nSJ (22:07.763)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (22:17.192)\nyeah, like group dating like in high school.\n\nKay (22:19.361)\nWell, that way the other women at the bar see them as more comfortable and approachable and also potentially desirable. Like they don't know, maybe this one guy's dating that girl, but maybe the friend's single. And we can ask the girls he's with, like he's cool, but you know, they're all smiling and talking to them. It makes you like look more desirable and confident. And like you're someone who knows how to talk to women. I don't know. He's got a high success rate that it made it.\n\nSJ (22:24.179)\nYeah. Okay.\n\nand that you're someone who knows how to talk to women. I She said it had a high success rate. OK. I mean, I feel like also, just if like a lot of these pick up tactics seem like there is much for getting rid of the man's anxiety or giving him a bit of that confidence so that he can be. And then I think ideally that you can be your authentic self and that underneath that anxiety is somebody who's genuinely very kind and interested in a relationship with a woman of whatever length.\n\nSo I guess that's like what a lot of these things get to and is it just like you're using it to try to just dispel a little bit of your initial anxiety because I think that we all need that.\n\nKay (23:19.853)\nThat's, I think that some of these things aren't written as, and this will dispel your like, know, insecurities and anxieties about approaching women. But I think that what they're actually doing is that because when you go into a bar and you approach women, not with the goal in your mind, you know, I'm going to hit on one of these specific women, but I'm just going to start a conversation. Then you realize how easy it is and that everybody's having a good time. They're drinking and they don't, you know, again, these situations don't have to involve alcohol, but you know, like humans are naturally social people.\n\nSJ (23:39.549)\nYeah.\n\nKay (23:49.165)\nIf you walk up to start a conversation, people are most likely going to be receptive.\n\nSJ (23:49.17)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (23:53.521)\nYeah, yeah, and I think that maybe there is just so much that's gotten heaped on this idea, especially men that get frustrated about this. And then there's so many forums for them to just continue circulating around in an echo chamber on Reddit or some places that are even a little bit darker than Reddit, that you're just reinforcing this idea that, yeah, that.\n\nKay (24:19.585)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (24:20.823)\nfirst of all, that you're not so much seeking authentic connections with other humans of whatever nature, but that solely you are only interacting with women to go get as much pussy as possible. And I think that one of the reasons that you don't see women complaining about this as much is because there are more women... I mean, obviously they are also seeking romantic partners. They are also horny and looking for one-night stands, but they are looking for a lot of...\n\nKay (24:47.799)\nBut then.\n\nSJ (24:50.373)\nmaybe diversity and that you don't have this idea of I see men posting on Reddit things like, you know, I just think that like I talk to all these women and only like a small percentage of them find me attractive. And I think it's like most women probably are not like in a situation where like every man in the world finds them attractive. But it's like, you don't need that.\n\nKay (25:05.133)\nThank\n\nKay (25:11.029)\nYeah. And I don't think that when a woman is sizing up, I don't think that a woman is every single guy that she sees being like, is he attractive enough for me to go on a date with? I think that time and time again, they've shown by, know, who women will end up going on a second date with after meeting somebody through online, through blind dates, is that they're actually much more understanding and receptive towards, you know, talking a little bit to a guy, figuring them out and seeing if she can find them attractive, even if she didn't initially find him attractive on first look.\n\nSJ (25:19.58)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (25:28.956)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (25:40.763)\nYeah, yeah, I think that there's a lot more to it than physical attractiveness. And the confidence piece seems like it is just a piece of it to like get that initial interaction to get that first date or something along that line of just kind of breaking the ice initially. But beyond that, you know, I don't think that confidence is like the top thing that most women are looking for. One thing also that I got from I've been rereading Emily Nagoski's Come As You Are.\n\nKay (26:00.91)\nthat.\n\nSJ (26:09.517)\nwhich I think we're going to discuss more on a future episode. One of her points in general about just women's sexuality is that there's much more variation. She kind of compares it to height, where she's like, even though on the whole men are taller than women, there's more variation within women's heights than there is variation between the average woman and the average man. And she says that that's very true about a lot of data about sexuality as well.\n\nSo I was just listening to a chapter where she's just listing off all of these things that different women who she had interviewed listed as their turn on, what really gets them going. And she's like, so. And then also what their turn offs were, what puts your brakes on. And at the end of the day, the main takeaway from it was just that there's so much more diversity within the data set of women than there is any one thing that you can take away or any one thing that you can say, men like this and women like\n\nKay (26:47.213)\nor they want to your break on. And then the thing that came to mind was that there was so much diversity within the data set of women, then there was any part of the thing that could take away or anything they could say that was like the other thing. Yeah, so going on with that is that there is a book, Models Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson, which was seen as a\n\nSJ (27:02.279)\nlike this other thing.\n\nKay (27:13.453)\nlike a more comprehensive actually in tune with people's emotions, both than the game. they talk about the idea of non-neediness and that the concept of neediness and which is deeply unattractive to, you know, not just women, but really people in general. And neediness is when a man places a higher priority on others perceptions of him than on his perceptions of himself. And there's the theory that like, the man's attractiveness is inversely\n\nSJ (27:19.725)\nWhat?\n\nSJ (27:38.257)\nHmm, that's an interesting definition of it.\n\nKay (27:42.926)\nproportional to how needy he is. So the less needy he is, the more attractive he will be to women on average. And I think that's kind of an interesting thing because yes, you want a person to, I don't know, have a high perception of themselves and to care about that and to not bend to what other people find. But you also want them to be able to listen and take feedback and to adapt. I don't know, does that make there's kind of like a balance there?\n\nSJ (28:10.385)\nYeah, when that gets back to the research, think I mentioned the last episode that's like successful relationships are like there's a lot of openness to being changed and like evolving with your partner. So we think that there is a piece of like openness and vulnerability, which I can understand is different than neediness. And where I thought he was going to go a little bit with the neediness. yes, I didn't even need to read the book.\n\nKay (28:27.725)\nAnd Rex is in the boat. Vulnerability is next in his list. So vulnerability, as he describes it, is the ability to be comfortable with your emotions, your faults, and being able to express yourself without inhibition. And that that's a big part about building attraction. And so this isn't unloading all your issues to somebody else, but it is knowing.\n\nSJ (28:42.195)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (28:49.715)\nThank you.\n\nKay (28:52.813)\nOh, I'm actually, you know, I'm not the best at this. So I do get too angry in these situations and I, you know, this is like the reality of my station in life. Like those pieces of it.\n\nSJ (28:56.187)\nget angry in these situations. This is like the reality of my kids. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, think especially for the male side, when men are socialized to like not talk about their emotions that much, that I think like vulnerability is openness to like, talking about your emotions and processing them and things like that, which I agree can turn into like,\n\nI understand now why he's differentiating, like, there's, neediness and vulnerability, because I think that that makes, a nice balance to walk of being vulnerable without being needy or, without trauma dumping and things like that, because otherwise you just end up with an emo kid.\n\nKay (29:35.47)\nAnd I think that it you know, it goes for women to this idea that to be ready for a relationship, like we need to have kind of a strong sense of self and be willing to go into it knowing that we have faults and ready to talk about them and to maybe hear other people express that they're having a frustrating time with some of your own faults.\n\nSJ (29:56.423)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (30:02.875)\nYeah, and a lot I was reading something and it was just basically of like how men need to it. Why one reason why men might be struggling a little bit with adapting to kind of the changing nature of relationships between hetero men and women is just like this shifting overall power dynamic and that women used to just kind of need men for security and just like to be able to have a bank account or like own property. They couldn't do any of this on their own.\n\nSo it used to be fairly straightforward that all that men had to offer was just that physical stability and anything else beyond that is kind of icing on the cake. And so now we are in this era of women can provide for their basic physical needs on their own. And so some men are kind of like, well, then that makes us obsolete. And this particular writer, I wish I remember.\n\nKay (30:34.093)\nis just that physical stability of anything else beyond that, which I communicate. And so now, here is pair of clothes. Women just provide for the basic physical needs.\n\nSJ (30:53.747)\nwas reading, but I think I've seen this point made by a few people, is that like, no, this is this opportunity for you to have all this space to be a true partner to a woman and that they are still, you still see women out there looking for men, but now they're looking for like a partner, you know, someone to share experiences with, just somebody who has a sense of humor, who brings more enjoyment to life. And so you don't have to be, you know, stuck in these traditional roles, either of you anymore. And that frees you up to have like a much more\n\nlike psychologically fulfilling relationship.\n\nKay (31:26.702)\nThat's and I saw something the other day and it was a guy posting on one of the social media forums that you know he's so proud because he gets to retire his wife. They had a three month old baby and the wife was now you know retired by him and that this is a blessing and a privilege and I was thinking like.\n\nOoh, the way that you phrase that is kind of bothering me because it should be fully her decision and her thing. And you should need to acknowledge, you know, what she's giving up during that. And that it's not really like you retired her is that she's making this.\n\nSJ (31:49.288)\nYeah.\n\nbe fully in court decision.\n\nSJ (31:58.037)\nYeah. It's like this status symbol that he has that he's like, got to like, render my wife's job obsolete because I'm so successful.\n\nKay (32:08.845)\nYeah, and it's like that, you know, if you are also giving her like, you full financial freedom, all those things, she's not going to have to go to you when she wants to go out for coffee or anything like that for, for permission. Then it's not that like, that isn't awesome. It's just like the wording around it. Yeah. It me the.\n\nSJ (32:22.673)\nYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally get that.\n\nKay (32:27.885)\nYeah. So.\n\nSJ (32:31.962)\nDo you want to go to, so you had the thing about like that post about like the women like seeking out violent men. And then I had like the, I had that research that I added about it.\n\nKay (32:36.193)\nwomen. Yes.\n\nKay (32:43.661)\nYeah, I'm just trying to find where did I put that screenshot? Did I put it up? Hi? I read it. I'm up. I want a little nuts. I was sitting outside with Yanny doing things. Yeah. And you know, a reason why we're doing this episode on this talk is just to kind of clarify some, at least of our beliefs around the idea of\n\nSJ (32:48.851)\nwell you had it right under that book, but I think you had a couple other screenshots too.\n\nSJ (33:09.339)\naround the idea of confidence.\n\nKay (33:10.893)\nof confidence and alpha males for lack of a better word and why there is some attraction to them but that comes with balance and we're not asking for somebody to take over.\n\nSJ (33:16.787)\nwith balance and the app was going to take over. Or we said attracted to confidence without necessarily wanting an alpha male. Because I think we had kind of talked about that last time that we had like the X and Y axes with like the good guys and the bad guys, but that the missing piece from that was confidence. And so I think maybe like talking about confidence in the aspect of it being something where the underlying nature or motivation of the person is like good and like meaningful connection and not just like being an asshole.\n\nKay (33:46.806)\nYeah, and I saw a post that really kind of speaks to this, which is that sometimes it feels like the woman shouting the loudest about misogynistic men are the same ones who want that guy from 50 Shades of Grey. And I felt personally targeted by this post. And I was like, whoa, okay, Christian Grey actually did ask for consent and\n\nYes, there was, you know, BDSM and Dom's sub that happened within the confines of something very specific. But also I don't even, I didn't read Fifty Shades of Grey, but there are other books where there is the guys kind of.\n\nSJ (34:12.615)\nYes, there was.\n\nSJ (34:18.225)\nAlso, I don't even know where you put the shades of gray.\n\nSJ (34:23.865)\nYeah, and we've talked a lot about how also we might be seeking that out. And so like this person's post that says like, you know, these women who are screaming about misogynistic men are seeking them out. And it's like, okay, hold up Reddit, bro. Like we are seeking them out, at least in the examples that I'm talking about. Obviously, there are women who are just like inherently attracted to like abusive or violent men. And I don't but I don't think that that's like something associated with feminism. I think sometimes like some of us come from\n\ndifficult past or have things in our childhood that are attracting us to destructive relationships. But on the whole, when we talk about women who are feminists and are like, oh, these men need to be more whatever, that we're not then turning around and marrying Christian Grey. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that we are, I think, at least when I look around, mean, sure.\n\nKay (34:55.021)\nthe things that I would say that are active to do different things. But on the other hand, when we talk about the more effective, I don't know, these meds, you know, you know, whatever. We're not meds. Not a med. Bad as a med.\n\nSJ (35:20.615)\nshort-term relationships and one-night stands and things like that. But when I look around at the strong feminist women that I know and who they married, like none of them are married to Christian Grey. None of them are married to mystery. Not that you could tie mystery down with marriage. Or like, I don't know any of these examples or like, I mean, any, like this romantic stuff of like werewolves that also like tear their clothes off their body with their claws.\n\nKay (35:45.305)\nYeah, and I saw a review for a summary of a book written by an author actually for that book and she's like I want to make it clear that this book does not represent what a healthy relationship is or a guy that people would actually be attracted to in real life. You know, this book is meant to be sexy and to serve the purposes of something you read that's sexy.\n\nYou know, the same way as when we watch adult videos or something, we might seek certain content, but that's not necessarily what we're looking for in our day-to-day partnerships in life.\n\nSJ (36:15.879)\nYeah, totally. And I did because there have been some questions about like, what is it that attracts men or that attracts women to this kind of like alpha male kind of characteristic. There was an article by Giebel et al in Evolution and they were looking at some previous research that is kind of like, why are women attracted and like, does it have to do with an evolutionary kind of thing of like, maybe these men are more like masculine and able to reproduce?\n\nSo they found they were studying whether women are more attracted to appetite of aggression, which is basically like when men are violent without any reason. They're not provoked. They're not defending anything.\n\nKay (37:00.928)\nGosh, no. I hope no.\n\nSJ (37:02.745)\nYeah, I mean, and I guess that's like what you see in kind of some of these like characters that we're into in books or when they're like, you're attracted to these like misogynistic men. In this article, they called it kind of like the warrior archetype. So they did find that when women are in the peak of their fertility cycle, that they were more attractive. They had this like scenario with a soldier and they were with like different things of like if he had like\n\nthey gave different scenarios of this soldier, his experience returning from war, and they gave you four different vignettes with trauma-related symptoms with high or low appetite of aggression or no trauma-related symptoms with high or low appetite of aggression. And the women are ranking how much they would want to be with this soldier in this little story that they're given.\n\nKay (37:50.201)\nmy gosh. And it's like right when they're horn is they want to be with the people who can like protect their youth.\n\nSJ (37:53.925)\nRight when they're horny as they do, they're more attractive to the alpha male. But even in that case, it was an uptick in how many of them reported they'd be interested in a short term relationship with this aggressive alpha male warrior type than that any of them were like, yeah, this is the man that I want to get a mortgage with and host a dinner party for our couple's friends. And yeah, do be a soccer coach for my kids' soccer team.\n\nKay (38:06.05)\nbed.\n\nKay (38:11.295)\nYeah, I've actually raised my kids.\n\nSJ (38:18.919)\nSo yeah, this is this idea that this masculinity is like a marker for reproduction, but we don't actually see them necessarily as relationship material.\n\nKay (38:21.793)\nMy attraction.\n\nKay (38:30.591)\nYeah, and that's funny. So something that Neil Strauss did write about that I thought was kind of ridiculous, because when I was actually imagining it happening, I was like, my gosh, that would be such a turn off. But it was for guys to come prepared with stories about how they were a leader in different situations. And so when they were starting the conversation with a woman, they would get into sharing these, you know, work antidotes, I would always have them in like the leader of the alpha position, because we're evolutionarily attracted to guys who are in that.\n\nSJ (38:39.987)\nHehehehe\n\nSJ (38:46.483)\nGo.\n\nKay (39:00.353)\nAnd I'm just imagining that if I were sitting there with like, you know, some 23 year old, like Deloitte associate, I mean, like I was really leading when I told this company, my God.\n\nSJ (39:05.811)\nSJ (39:10.161)\nmy gosh, I'm actually just flashing back to like, was at a party and I was being hit on by some Deloitte douchebag bro. And he was talking about something. I was like, not even talking about work. Cause of course, like I was 22 and like had no job that I needed to talk about in a party situation. but he was like, like, do you have a passport? Then like you have me to thank for it because I, or I think I was like saying something about how like I traveled a lot for work, but he was saying to me like,\n\nKay (39:17.045)\nAnd he was telling you, he's a leader.\n\nSJ (39:39.791)\nworked with Deloitte on passport control technology or something. And he's like, it's thanks to my work that you can move quickly through other countries. And I was like, OK, how did this just turned into a LinkedIn post? Please get me out of here.\n\nKay (39:48.533)\nNo, do not do that guys.\n\nKay (39:59.278)\nAbort conversation now. Yeah. So.\n\nSJ (40:00.988)\nYeah.\n\nI also wanted to ask about some of our favorite characters while we're on this topic. Who some of our favorite characters are that are this kind of like, they come across as very confident and maybe that they have traditional qualities of masculinity to test this a bit. Mainly because as you know, Kay, I am reading a court of- Nice, Sarah- Jane. Vernon Roses.\n\nKay (40:30.798)\nBy Sarah J. Moss, we finally got SJ to read A Court of Thorns and Roses.\n\nSJ (40:34.799)\nI am finally catching up on all of my romantasy reading. So no spoilers because I'm only into the second book, but just from knowing general things about this series and hearing about it from our friends and obviously being the last person to be reading this series. So I just finished the first book and it's all about her relationship with Tamlyn. And I'm like, I know that they...\n\ndon't end up together, right? So I'm like, waiting, I'm like, Rhysand is the name of the guy that she, so then like later in the book, I'm like, okay, this is who she's gonna be with. And he is just like a total douchebag when you first meet him, but like already, yeah, it's like in the book. So again, it's like this guy who like reads as a total douchebag that I feel like whenever you have those characters, which is like pretty much always the setup in the like enemies to lovers trope, which is like kind of my least favorite trope.\n\nKay (41:10.987)\nThere are reasons for that.\n\nSJ (41:25.267)\nBecause I feel like you have to manufacture this slightly unrealistic situation of why they would be bitter enemies and just totally hate one another, but then find some reason to totally lust after each other later. Which is why it works in Yeah, exactly. Which is why it only works in fantasy. And yeah, so I'm already getting into this. But it's not just that he is this like... Because she's not attracted to him being this alpha male or kind of an asshole and really confident.\n\nKay (41:38.989)\nThat's why it works in the romantic world.\n\nand\n\nSJ (41:54.341)\nAnd I'm not really to the part of the book yet where she's like into him, but you can already see where it's starting to set it up that it's like, he has these like brief moments of vulnerability and that's what's actually attracting her to him. And then meanwhile, you know, her relationship with Tamlin is starting to break down a little bit. And in that case, it is because like he's very controlling, like he's not seeing her as an equal partner. It's not because he's being a beta at all that she's like,\n\nKay (41:58.097)\nWhere he has his arc.\n\nSJ (42:23.375)\nless attractive or in a lot of these other books if there's like the guy that's the initial love interest or the guy that she's supposed to be with who's the obvious pick, it's rarely that like she's not into him because he's being a beta.\n\nKay (42:32.757)\nIt's rarely.\n\nKay (42:37.175)\nSo do we think that that means that Sarah J Maas read the book called Models Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson. So she knew that there had to be non-neediness and vulnerability.\n\nSJ (42:52.061)\nI mean, not having gotten even through the second book yet, I think that you can answer this better than I, but it kind of seems like that's the setup here.\n\nKay (43:00.021)\nYeah, it's interesting because I think that he is very, know, Reesand is very alpha, but when I look back at it, the moments where you actually become attracted to him are through these more vulnerable moments where he's acknowledging, you know, his inability to do things are his, yeah. So I think that's it.\n\nSJ (43:15.463)\nYeah. And I guess also in the books with primarily especially where you have, this is not the only series that you, I mean, I think this is the most famous where you have women lusting after fairies. When you have all these men who are like, I'm an alpha. Like I have to have all these like markers of traditional masculinity. And yet what you see that these women are lusting after, at least in this case of fairy romantisy, I mean, these men have long hair.\n\nKay (43:28.183)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (43:43.045)\nin a lot of cases. just, well, again, this is like fantasy things that we're lusting after. I don't also feel like you would probably like be sexually attracted to like other kinds of hairy beasts either. So I guess those are pretty like alpha masculine. But the theory is I did not realize until reading this book that the love interest is wearing a Mardi Gras mask that is surgically plastered to his face for the entire first book. like he's very\n\nKay (43:43.561)\ncare. Not my thing.\n\nKay (43:56.398)\nthere are kinds of things to do there. I guess those are the things that I'll talk about the next session.\n\nSJ (44:12.531)\nHe's like a lot of glamour. I feel like he's just reading as a little bit like...\n\nKay (44:15.277)\nYou have to put on like a weird mask for these bugs.\n\nSJ (44:21.989)\na little bit fancy. Yeah, no, I mean, I have no problem with that. I like that we're like bridging it a little bit and it's not just like, he had a motorcycle and a six pack. And I mean, he's not like coming across as like effeminate, but he's also not coming across as this just like traditionally masculine that his biceps ripped through his leather jacket.\n\nKay (44:40.563)\nalso plays the fiddle. so I hope that this is an okay time to switch over to an important thing that also links back to the orgasm gap because it is relevant in terms of romantic. So I was reading a book about demons this weekend. It did include.\n\nSJ (44:44.623)\nyou know that I love a good orchestra, dork, okay?\n\nSJ (45:03.251)\nWas this the sexy Satan book?\n\nKay (45:08.045)\nNext to you, Satan, there was Lucifer, there was, you know, an archangel. I mean, it really had everything I needed. But the important part about it, relevant to the orgasm gap, and important about women writing books about fantasy worlds, is that according to this book's canon, demon vaginas have a clitoris, a second clitoris that is inside the vagina. Is this the huge part? It is.\n\nSJ (45:22.163)\nthink this whole thing was important.\n\nSJ (45:32.179)\ninside the vagina. Is this the G-spot? It's the D-spot?\n\nKay (45:36.749)\nI mean, it's kind of like, except for the fake G-spot, it is instead the literal hypersensitive clitoris. know, the G-spot is not, nobody would say that any of the G-spots are the same as a clitoris for a woman. And this was literally a second clitoris within the vagina. I love it.\n\nSJ (45:53.427)\nI love this. would also, think that this is your reading some, you're a beta reader for some material for the author. Should we credit the?\n\nKay (46:01.498)\nI was just an early reader. The book is called Beast and it's by Georgia Lee. And I thought that it was a blast. And as soon as I read that there was a sexy Satan on the first page, I was like, I am hooked.\n\nSJ (46:04.307)\nOkay.\n\nSJ (46:17.75)\nThis is fulfilling your Catholic fantasies that we've already previously discussed.\n\nKay (46:22.177)\nWe always knew that Satan would be a daddy in bed. And unfortunately, she did not get to have sex with Satan, but Satan was actually one of the better demon princes where we kind of wish that she had had sex with Satan at beginning. And they left you no doubt that he was going to be able to give a good time if she had gone through with it. Yes.\n\nSJ (46:38.845)\nrule for a fallen woman.\n\nKay (46:42.285)\nBut I won't get into it, but she was a fairy. then, you know, there was a whole I won't and no spoilers to tell about. Yes, but I yes. And my sweet spot is reading books that have like under 100 reviews on Goodreads that are in like their first couple of months, because it just feels like you're doing two things at once. I'm reading a book that I genuinely want to read. But also if I'm giving a review afterwards, out of my own free will.\n\nSJ (46:51.431)\nYes, my sweet heart is reading.\n\nSJ (46:58.931)\nBecause I just feel like I read a book that I genuinely read, but also I'm giving a review afterwards out of my own free will. I feel like there's good karma out there. Yeah, I love this.\n\nKay (47:08.255)\nI feel like just putting good karma out there in the world. Anything else to tie up from last week? I mean, we have like 47 minutes, so we're at the length of like a... Yeah, the main things.\n\nSJ (47:15.027)\nAnything else that I have from last week? I mean, we have.\n\nSJ (47:21.811)\nI know, feel like our intro was like a good while, which I feel like then we also covered a lot of the... Yeah. let me...\n\nSJ (47:35.891)\nI guess covering that already, the group approach tactic, we did that.\n\nSJ (47:47.493)\nI guess the part that I added at the end I can kind of like do to wrap up a little bit.\n\nKay (47:52.697)\nyes, perfect, okay. So we're gonna end up with a little talk on the loneliness epidemic.\n\nSJ (47:59.299)\nYeah, so I mean, I think like to summarize this, seems like confidence is attractive when it is like an indicator that you are somebody who is generally open to relationships. And I kind of like the model book, that idea of, you know, being vulnerable without being needy, or just that you're somebody who's genuinely seeking human connection.\n\nKay (48:03.319)\nin the craft here.\n\nSJ (48:23.411)\nSo I was just listening to an NPR piece on the male loneliness epidemic, and they actually pointed out that if you just look at the Pew research on people reporting that they're lonely, think they said that like 30 % of people overall feel, in the most recent Pew research, 30 % of people overall feel lonely once a week or more. But then it was about 16 % of people overall.\n\nsaid that they are lonely most or all of the time. there was actually only about a one percent. know. First of all, join us in the comments and you can come be our friend. they said that, so I think there was just a one percent difference between, so I think it was 16 percent for women rounded and 17 percent for men.\n\nKay (48:52.237)\n5%.\n\ndifference between something like 16 % for women and 17 % for men.\n\nSJ (49:10.787)\nthe journalists who are commenting on this were like, there isn't actually a big difference. Like if you just talk about being lonely, like that's kind of just more of an overall cultural trend when we live in a world where I mean, like I think post pandemic, you can name a number of reasons for that, that we've had kind of like a breakdown in some of our traditional communities. And many of us live in a town that's like different than the one we grew up in. So we don't have these long standing communities. So they were kind of talking about like, what are the other differences for men?\n\nKay (49:33.911)\nSo they were.\n\nAnd what they said is that there's deflation of just a lumphead of loneliness and not having a relationship that you are not executing yourself. And so if you're on the whole you're receiving both friendship and a relationship, either or and or not with you. But that's the benefit of deflating this idea of having a\n\nSJ (49:40.239)\nAnd one of them that they said is that there's this conflation that was mostly just among men of loneliness and not having a partnered relationship, that they were not separating the two. And so women are seeking, on the whole, were more seeking both friendships and a relationship, either or and or both and. But that men are conflating this idea of having\n\nconnection in your life as like you the best and highest form of that is to have this relationship. And one way that they saw that play out is that they asked people like, how likely are you to go to these different relationships or these different people in your life when you need something or you need support or advice. And men were as likely to go to their spouse as women are to go to their spouse for like help or advice.\n\nBut men are less likely to go to every other type of relationship in their life. So women would go to their spouse, but they would also go to their parents, their siblings, their friends, their work wife, whatever. And men were pretty much like, if you have a spouse, you would go to her or you would go to them for advice and support. And then other than that,\n\nKay (50:39.245)\nthat's interesting.\n\nyou know, workplace, whatever. And then we're pretty much like, if you have a child, you would go to her, you would go to them, that very insightful. It's more like, you we're No comment towards us burying most of the load there, but.\n\nSJ (50:58.373)\nNo, that was a huge discussion piece for it. And like the amount of pressure that this is on women, again, that like men are seeking, have such singular focus on these partnered relationships and that they're expecting to get so much more out of it because they have like fewer friendships to fall back on or the friendships, they are used less in that way.\n\nKay (51:21.133)\nSo men, know, maybe use these game tactics on other men. know, maybe when you walk up as a group of three boys and you see another three boys in the bar, just go talk straight to them, you know?\n\nSJ (51:26.641)\nYeah, to make a friend.\n\nSJ (51:33.689)\nyou okay, honestly, I feel like a lot of these tactics are like the negging stuff, like this would work equally well on male potential friends, because I do think that men a little bit more than women enjoy like a good little negging or something like that. and there's so I don't know if you've received\n\nKay (51:45.089)\nYou wanna be in it?\n\nKay (51:50.509)\nGive the men something to respond to and the other guy.\n\nSJ (51:53.763)\nYeah, exactly. think that the same way that they say women are actually dressing mostly for other women, I think these men who are wearing these sort of outlandish clothing are probably mostly doing it to like... other guys. Yeah, like as a status symbol amongst your bros. And meanwhile, as we said, this idea that as society does become more equitable, that women don't need men for these basic needs anymore. And do you ever hear that French guy?\n\nKay (52:04.907)\nMake other guys laugh.\n\nSJ (52:22.253)\non social media that he's always like, or she doesn't need you anymore, bro, like, she doesn't have to be bothered with it just for your like weak ass relationship. I don't know, he does like all these funny things, that's just, I will send you some videos from him, but he's like, she doesn't need you, like, she's got her shit taken care of, like, unless you can give her something that really is going to like, be amazing for her, then it's like, she doesn't need to be bothered.\n\nHe says, she's single and deliciously undisturbed is one of the last videos that I watched. And he says dating in 2025 is like applying for a job that doesn't pay well. So there's like a lot of videos and content out there of basically like, hey, women are doing well. Like we've got great friend groups. We have, you know, jobs and health insurance now and we can have credit cards on our own. So like men, have to offer us something.\n\nKay (53:09.517)\nYeah, and there's a lot of different ways that you can meet friends and people and the relationships might naturally come from there, but things like, you know, kickball leagues and running groups and all that.\n\nSJ (53:19.111)\nYeah. Yeah. Well, this is something else that I noticed when we were talking about our nice guys episode is that the friend zone complaint. This is something that like, have you ever heard a woman say like, I got put in the friend zone by this guy, even though like maybe we have all, mean, I know I have, we have all had a situation where you were like, I was attracted to this guy, but he didn't really like see me as more than a friend. But we don't have this like,\n\nKay (53:43.25)\nWe would never be like, I'm friend zone. We would just be like, he's a good friend. Yeah.\n\nSJ (53:46.855)\nbe like, that's disappointing. We had different thoughts on where this relationship was going. And then you can decide if you want to be friends with somebody that you kind of wish you had something more or that's too painful. So I think that that's just such a particularly male thing, this idea that all relationships that aren't going to end in some kind of sex or boyfriend-girlfriend thing are just not worth having. And so that friend-zoned is negative or just like,\n\nconnecting with a bunch of people.\n\nKay (54:18.209)\nYeah, like again, maybe that trick at the bar where you go and you talk immediately to a group of girls, it works because you're just having a good time and people want to be with people who are having a good time instead of being focused on, who are you going to bring home that night?\n\nSJ (54:27.559)\nYeah. And that seems like that's really a reliever for your anxiety is instead of setting up a fake situation where you pretend that the stakes are very low or that it's not going to turn into something more, maybe just like genuinely go in with that expectation.\n\nKay (54:38.305)\nthat.\n\nKay (54:45.207)\nYeah, so with that.\n\nSJ (54:47.579)\nAnything that you want to add to this conversation to turn it X-rated because I feel like that was actually like one of our less raunchy episodes.\n\nKay (54:55.597)\nWas the clitoris in the vagina hole not X-rated enough for you? Yeah, think it's okay. We'll have kind of two back-to-back, not as X-rated ones because I mean even though the last one we were talking about, gay romance, it wasn't really X-rated and then we'll have other ones that are and we'll just yeah, lighter one. We can use it.\n\nSJ (54:57.927)\nThat's true. We did have that. We did have the extra clitoris. Thanks for throwing that in there.\n\nSJ (55:12.987)\nsomething extra raunchy. We'll just do entirely based on two clitoris podcasts. Well, following up on things from previous episodes, we always like to wrap by following up. I don't know if there's anything that you have to add. I know that we owe our Gilmore Girlies an official apology because we were talking about Rory's different love interests in a previous episode and mistakenly referred to Jess as Jessie, one of our intrepid listeners.\n\npointed this out, am going to take all the fault for this one, Kay, because I know you didn't know better. And Kay's reaction was, why is there a man named Jess? So I would encourage you, Kay, to deconstruct a little bit your desire for traditional masculinity and look into the fact that he is actually the most emotionally vulnerable of all of her love interests.\n\nKay (55:43.97)\nI do not watch Gilmore Girls. But why was why is his name?\n\nKay (56:03.755)\nI'll try. I will try Gilmore Girls. Maybe sometime if I have to, you know, spend three months in a hospital. And I can't read. Yeah, neither audio books or normal reading books are available to me. Then I'll watch Gilmore Girls. Well,\n\nSJ (56:10.387)\nThat is the only scenario that you can see yourself.\n\nSJ (56:21.597)\nWell, I am continuing to move through the Court of Thorn and Roses at a fast clip. I will also, well, I think I was supposed to be reading something. I was supposed to watch Sex and the City if you were going to watch Gilmore Girls, and I don't really care about Sex and the City. So I'm fine if you never watch Gilmore Girls. We'll just both continue. And speaking of just female friendships being peak and like men need to aspire to have their friendships be more like women, I would just like to shout out\n\nKay (56:26.177)\nYou're right.\n\nKay (56:29.911)\nI think I'm reading something. have a question for the city.\n\nKay (56:36.877)\nI'm fine with delinquent. We'll just continue.\n\nSJ (56:51.463)\nto Kay and our other Court of Thorn and Roses bestie who is the like number one fangirl that got me into reading this series. I've been sort of like live texting my commentary on this series as I go through for the first time.\n\nSJ (57:11.513)\nyou all are doing a very good job of that but i just feel like peak female friendship is when you are like okay yeah like you're about to get to like the part of the book where it gets really hot and then both of the two of you were like you know it's like 10 o'clock at night you were both like i'm gonna flip to that scene in my kindle and we're like all gonna be like reading it together at the same time\n\nKay (57:18.317)\nCharlie.\n\nKay (57:30.519)\nWell, we were laughing because like the scene was is literally just that she meets the guy who we both love and so the scene's literally just like hello I've been looking for you and so Sarah and I separately texted him we're like SJ is gonna be pretty unhappy with what that scene actually is.\n\nSJ (57:49.275)\nYeah, I was, but I just really appreciated that you are now reading our smutty book together with me in solidarity and we're all in our beds late at night just reading sexy fairy fiction. I just think, you know, and they say the reason that they think maybe a lot of men are struggling to have the same level of friendships as women are is because of all of the homophobia that they're conditioned with and that they're like, you can't do anything that would be too emotional or gay with your bro, so you have to just like...\n\nKay (57:59.603)\nSorry.\n\nKay (58:04.044)\nYou know they\n\nSJ (58:17.959)\ntalk about sports and like neg each other non sexually.\n\nKay (58:19.149)\nCan you imagine if our partners were all texting each other like, just watched a really great adult video.\n\nSJ (58:25.283)\nYeah, they're like, okay, guys, they're like, totally getting to this part where, like, there's this really amazing blowjob, like, let's all watch it together at the same time and then text each other about it. I would love that for them.\n\nKay (58:36.301)\nWell, have a great day everybody. Thanks so much for listening. Appreciate a five star review and a follow. No nagging in the comments needed though, you know, only, only positive.\n\nSJ (58:50.117)\nOnly appreciate negging one-on-one in the club in 2004.\n\nKay (58:55.346)\nThank you, have a good day.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":13,"createdAt":"2025-10-14T14:17:50.666Z","updatedAt":"2025-10-14T14:20:03.231Z"},{"id":12,"title":"From Corporate Tech to Gay Romance: Tropes, Tensions, and Piracy Debates with Guest Author Lukas","slug":"From-Corporate-Tech-to-Gay-Romance-Tropes-Tensions-and-Piracy-Debates-with-Guest-Author-Lukas","description":"SJ and Kay sit down with Lukas, a gay romance author whose upcoming novel, Pickle Your Fancy, blends sports satire, hot locker room scenes, and a poignant coming-out narrative. The trio starts with a playful Mary, Fuck, Kill game, debating the merits of David Rose, Will from Nashville, and Lukas’s own character Mason. Lukas opens up about his journey to full-time writing, sharing how his love for crafting stories, sparked by Enya-fueled journaling sessions in school, led him to make the jump from corporate tech after he authored a WSJ bestseller.\nThe discussion turns to the craft of writing sex scenes that move the plot forward, with Lukas explaining how he tests scenes with beta readers to ensure they hit the mark and the science of picking the right words. SJ and Kay explore the ethics of book pirating, citing studies that debunk myths about who pirates and why, while Lucas reflects on the impact of corporate theft on authors. From his plans for a rapid-fire release strategy to his excitement for untapped subgenres like gay lit RPG, this episode offers a deep dive into the challenges and joys of breaking into romance as a gay male author, all wrapped in witty banter and genuine camaraderie.","spotifyEmbedId":"2Xaa09gEtfS4kd2PUQPS4j","releaseDate":"October 7, 2025","duration":"55 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"Kay (00:02.313)\nOkay, welcome to the Good Girls podcast. And today we are so excited because we have the future George R. R. Martin of gay romance, Lucas. here. Woo. And we're going to start off with introducing Lucas by a game of Mary Fuck Kill as we have been doing. Your three choices. David Rose from Schitt's Creek. Mason from\n\nSJ (00:11.474)\nof gay romance.\n\nLukas (00:14.114)\nI'll take that all day.\n\nLukas (00:25.934)\nOkay.\n\nSJ (00:29.756)\nfavorite.\n\nKay (00:31.037)\nPickle your fancy or will from Nashville. Yes, and if you have not seen Nashville, I have a ready third for you.\n\nLukas (00:32.93)\nHmm\n\nSJ (00:33.412)\nwhich we will be discussing on this episode.\n\nLukas (00:40.85)\nI know Will from Nashville. we just went to see Dixon Dallas. Have y'all ever heard of this country artist? He's like a gay country artist, or at least he makes gay music. I think he may be queer baiting, which I'm totally fine with. More straight guys want to tempt me. That's fine. But he is a real gay country artist. So I know Will. David Rose. Let's Creek. That's my comfort show. Like that and the office of the\n\nKay (00:54.921)\nhaha\n\nSJ (01:08.464)\nYeah, who doesn't know David Rose?\n\nKay (01:10.793)\nSo I gave you three tricky ones.\n\nLukas (01:12.306)\n100%. Yeah. Okay, and then who was the third again? Oh, Mason from my own book. Oh my God.\n\nKay (01:17.262)\nMason from Pickle Your Fancy, from your own book, your own creation.\n\nSJ (01:18.364)\nFrom...\n\nLukas (01:22.51)\nSo in creating that book, actually picked real tennis players in my head and put them on my character sheet as I was writing. so I have photos of these guys who are real people. And I'm like, these will kind of be the central. And then I'll tweak things and all that. It's not fully those guys. But it is funny because tennis was just... You get that, right?\n\nKay (01:41.085)\nYou have to leak that because it's so helpful to have that image in your mind. I love knowing who they're based off of.\n\nSJ (01:47.952)\nwas having trouble because the chapters flip back and forth between the two characters. So until the book got underway, was like, OK. So I started picturing them in my head so that when it flipped perspective, I was following the storyline of the book. So I'm really interested. have a very photographic, when I read books kind of way of reading. So I want to know how accurately I got them from the descriptions.\n\nLukas (02:08.866)\nI'll have to tell you after, you know, like which ones, cause now I see them on TV. Yes.\n\nKay (02:11.76)\nYou will not share their tennis identities with us. Okay, you can sneak it to us and then we'll leak it afterwards. Or we'll suggest it to people.\n\nSJ (02:16.207)\nWe don't share our own identities. don't think that we can out, yeah, I don't think that we can out the secret tennis players if we don't even share our own identities.\n\nLukas (02:24.174)\nThat's right, the very straight real man. Okay, well, unfortunately David is way too high maintenance for me. Like, I don't think I could live that life. He is so amazing, but I think I would have to kill that character, it's not a real person. And probably Fuck Will from Nashville. That seems like that would be fun. And then Mason.\n\nKay (02:25.549)\nI it.\n\nKay (02:34.908)\nYou're gonna kill David?\n\nWow.\n\nLukas (02:53.206)\nYeah, I mean, I've spent the most time with him in my head. So like, I have it all mapped out how this is gonna go for us.\n\nKay (02:59.612)\nWhoa, okay, not the direction I would have gone in.\n\nSJ (03:00.505)\nYeah, if it's your own creation.\n\nLukas (03:03.576)\nI can't kill him for sure. Like that's not gonna happen.\n\nSJ (03:07.793)\nIt's not that kind of book,\n\nKay (03:07.868)\nI would have had sex with Mason because of the locker room scene, which I hope everybody gets to read because it's extremely sexy. I guess I also would have killed David Rose then, which surprises me. So getting into the conversation.\n\nSJ (03:20.741)\nHe seems more like best friend material than that, yeah. Because you're right, he's very high maintenance.\n\nLukas (03:25.006)\nTotally. To be married to David would be a very difficult life choice.\n\nKay (03:32.818)\nWell, if I hadn't read Lucas's hot sex scene from Pickle Your Fancy, it would have been David Rose for sex because that at least would have probably been a funny experience.\n\nLukas (03:41.494)\nThat's definitely true, yes. That'd be a very real sex scene, you know? Like none of that perfect sex where it's all like, you know, there's real life going on with David.\n\nKay (03:47.378)\nthat.\n\nKay (03:52.586)\nSo getting into your career switch, Lucas, without naming the corporation, Lucas worked at an extremely well known big fancy place with probably amazing salary and benefits and all that and then came to instead gift the world with writing and writing in a few different genres. Can you talk us through that switch?\n\nLukas (04:15.796)\nYeah, well doesn't it make perfect sense to leave, you know, corporate tech America and go into writing gay romance novels? That's like the natural career progression.\n\nSJ (04:25.371)\nI think it makes sense to me. It sounds...\n\nKay (04:26.054)\nHow many people do you think progress that way?\n\nSJ (04:29.307)\nCorporate tech sounds like the most soul-sucking thing in the world, writing romance sounds like the most soul-filling thing in the world, so it's a natural progression to me.\n\nLukas (04:39.766)\nThere we go.\n\nKay (04:40.838)\nI don't know, maybe if Lucas could have babies and get that nine month maternity leave. It's real differently.\n\nLukas (04:45.792)\nThat's, I think that's the main problem, right? Yes. we were not getting pregnant naturally, my husband and I. So I think it really like, luckily the spoiler is I wasn't really running away from corporate tech as much as running to writing, which is just lucky. Like they're both great motivators, right? If you don't like something enough to leave it, that's fine. And if you like something enough to go towards it, that's also fine.\n\nBut I had wanted to be a full-time author since like middle school. had probably a lot of us like free write time in an English class and my teacher would put on Enya and we would just journal. And that was where I was like, my God, I love this. I love writing. But it was probably like 15 years ago where I got super serious about writing. So I was working then in corporate tech.\n\nand already not yet married quite yet to my husband, but we were already together. And so how about this? Yeah. We are like days away from our 12th anniversary of being married, which is pretty cool.\n\nKay (05:44.968)\n15 years, you've been with your husband for 15 years, and you're only three years older than me.\n\nSJ (05:49.745)\nWow.\n\nKay (05:53.928)\nYou all were child brides. SJ is also a child bride. That's extremely young.\n\nSJ (05:59.11)\nYeah, fellow child brides from Texas unite. It's because of our extreme religious views.\n\nLukas (05:59.16)\nThere we go.\n\nLukas (06:03.052)\nThat's right, it's the Keller Flower Mound vibes. It's in the water.\n\nKay (06:06.011)\nHahaha!\n\nSJ (06:08.377)\nYeah, we don't believe in sex before marriage, so we have to get married young.\n\nKay (06:12.561)\nHahaha.\n\nLukas (06:13.902)\nThat's right. Yeah, it didn't exactly work out like that. So I really feel like it was then writing while in corporate tech that was kind of like kicking the tires on, do I actually like this? And I published a bunch of stuff and sci-fi fantasy and comics and children's books and a business book and kind of realized that, yeah, I really like sitting in a coffee shop and writing for as long as I can possibly do it.\n\nSJ (06:18.393)\nHahaha\n\nKay (06:20.626)\nYeah.\n\nLukas (06:43.564)\nwhich to me was like proof that, okay, it's already weird that I know what I love. I think when you ask people like, what do you love to do? It's probably more common to get like, I'm not really sure, you know, I really like this or that. And I've always known what I loved. And so there's a bit of like, I wanna pay respect to that passion that ended up being.\n\nSJ (07:04.699)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (07:04.829)\nBut you started with children's books and business books. Were you always, always like brainstorming romance on the side or was that always your area? Or are you surprised that you made this turn? And is your family going to be surprised?\n\nLukas (07:08.969)\nSo strange.\n\nLukas (07:16.586)\nI'm super surprised. yeah, mean, fortunately my family knows now even nothing's out, but they know that it's coming and like there is, you know, you're trying not to write. I try not to write thinking about my mom or my grandma or any of that. And like, okay, who's my reader? This is my audience.\n\nKay (07:29.993)\nThey'll love it. Well, that's the thing is like they'll they'll want to support you.\n\nSJ (07:34.981)\nHow is that going to work? you think that, yeah, do you think that your mom and your grandma are going to want to read it? Or are they going to be like, I'm just happy to know that you're doing well and successful?\n\nLukas (07:46.924)\nI think probably more that. There's some, it's gonna be interesting. Like, so we should talk about like, that's right, yeah.\n\nKay (07:53.352)\nYou can just tell them what chapters to skip. mean, Pick All Your Fancy is like a beautiful, heartwarming book. It has hot sex scenes and I like them, but it's also like a very sweet story. Give her the copy with those chapters like cut out. Yeah.\n\nSJ (08:00.069)\nYes.\n\nSJ (08:04.283)\nGrandma could read it without.\n\nLukas (08:06.304)\nYeah, maybe there should be an edited version here.\n\nSJ (08:09.329)\nThe PG version.\n\nLukas (08:12.876)\nWhat's funny is, as much of a statement as you can make writing like, M.M. romance, to me, open door sex is super important to be in all of my books. I want, basically, the umbrella for everything I write will be that it's about dudes falling in love, getting a happily ever after. And there will be explicit sex in that, because yes, gay people have sex, that's part of it, we're doing that as part of love. But like, that's not what it's all about.\n\nKay (08:40.137)\nDo you think that you would feel as, and just to be clear, I get disappointed when I read any romance book that does not have an open door sex scene, because I just, at this point, it's like I want to know, like, what is this character that I've been reading about for so long going to be like?\n\nSJ (08:54.575)\nIt's not telling the whole story without it. Yeah.\n\nLukas (08:56.396)\nYeah, and who are we pretending? Come on, everyone has cell phones in their pockets. Like, everyone is doing the same stuff all the time. Let's just be more real.\n\nKay (09:02.345)\nDo you think that you would feel as strongly about including the scenes if it were like a hetero couple?\n\nSJ (09:06.096)\nYeah.\n\nLukas (09:14.67)\nwell, part of why I feel like it's important for me to have in my stories is because y'all, just like everyone, the number of hetero sex scenes that I've consumed through books and advertisements and movies and TV shows, I don't even like it. And I've seen thousands, tens of thousands, millions of scenes, right?\n\nKay (09:36.937)\nSo it's our turn.\n\nLukas (09:39.882)\nYeah, there needs to be a little bit of a balancing of the scales like okay I get it that does sell stuff especially working in marketing like there's so much coded advice on put more smiling women in your ads it's like okay wink message received I understand but that's important to me like if we strip that out it feels like it's missing a huge important piece of the puzzle\n\nSJ (09:52.419)\nYou\n\nKay (10:03.111)\nFeels like it's being hidden too.\n\nLukas (10:06.602)\nEven though I don't want it to be, at least for me, even though I think the genre is fun, like erotica is more about like sex for sex, like the hottest sex scene you can write. You know, the difference between that and a romance book is the sex should move the plot, the sex should move the characters forward. And that's, you know, like I want it to be hot, but I want there to be a reason for it, because I think that makes it better too.\n\nSJ (10:15.632)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (10:27.719)\nYou succeeded. Yeah.\n\nSJ (10:29.945)\nWell, and I liked that your setup for it was, you know, it was a little bit to enemies to lovers, but it made it a little bit more interesting by it was friends to enemies to lovers that you get kind of both of those in there. And I thought that that made it. I've complained to Kay in the past that sometimes the enemies to lovers thing feels very fake because I'm like, why in real life are there a lot of situations if I think of the people in my life that I felt were my enemies?\n\nI'm just like, there would never be a scenario in which I would end up falling in love or having sex with them. So I felt like it was a very genuine setup and the characters still being in the closet actually made for a real reason why. Because that's another thing in romance novels that you're like, why are they not just having sex all the time if they're that hot for each other and they have to come up with some manufactured reason why they're not having sex all the time? So in this case, I felt like it was very real.\n\nthe whole setup of not being fully out to themselves or to the world that made it a real reason to not just have it be porn where they're just having sex all the time. There's like that sexy tension. we love porn too. We definitely talk about that. But like you said, the difference between the two is that in the romance, you need that tension and you need something that gets resolved into the happily ever\n\nKay (11:37.071)\nHahaha!\n\nLukas (11:38.07)\nWhich is fine and awesome.\n\nKay (11:41.541)\nYou\n\nLukas (11:45.08)\nYeah.\n\nLukas (11:52.718)\nIt's funny because I feel like gay romance, LGBTQ romance has that natural tension built into it. So it almost feels to me like a leg up in writing a story. Cause it's like in a hetero romance, you have to work a lot harder as an author to build the stakes and create tension. And I definitely don't only want to write stories about people coming out. Like,\n\nSJ (12:03.014)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (12:12.155)\nYes.\n\nLukas (12:17.558)\nI'm a happily married for a long time, like, you know, gay man who's been in the world. It's not like I'm running into people hating on me all the time. It still definitely happens. So that's just part of life being out, but it's not the center. And I think that's fun. Like it's cool to have that, those stories, but it's lucky to have some of that tension built in. what y'all read kind of the sports satire.\n\nSJ (12:21.2)\nYeah.\n\nKay (12:21.575)\nvery long time.\n\nKay (12:30.845)\nI mean, you live in the South, yeah.\n\nLukas (12:43.234)\nhas that story of coming out very central, because it makes sense in the sports world that is part of, I think, sadly, the real world still is. It's not normal there yet.\n\nSJ (12:48.827)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (12:53.551)\nYeah, it did. kind of gutted me because I was expecting from the title and from the setup, you know, it's a, it's a cheeky little pickleball romance. And so I was expecting it to, I loved the whole world building with like the bad guy in the book is very much like Donald Trump. If he had just stayed with being business honcho and gone into tormenting the pickleball world instead of all of America. And, you know, just this like big Trump towers.\n\nKay (12:54.094)\nWe aren't sure for pickleball.\n\nKay (13:12.071)\nHa!\n\nLukas (13:12.814)\nHa\n\nKay (13:15.785)\nEverybody needs that Trump spin-up.\n\nSJ (13:20.589)\nYes, I mean, I would have liked that Trump spin-off much better if he was just sticking to torturing the world of pickleball, of professional pickleball, instead of all of America. But I was just expecting it to just kind of be this like fun, cheeky little thing. And I wasn't expecting to be very gutted by just this, you know, coming out story that was in it. Yeah, and a very honest romance in addition to very hot sex scenes. So it had it all.\n\nKay (13:40.145)\nIt's very moving.\n\nKay (13:48.553)\nYeah, so.\n\nLukas (13:48.952)\nI don't think I was expecting that either going into it. Like that's the fun of writing. Even if, you know, there's the difference between plotters and pantsers. Have y'all ever heard of that before? So like in the writing community, it's like when you sit down to write a book, are you somebody who is more like an architect and you outline everything and scene by scene and here's how it's all gonna go and then right from there.\n\nSJ (13:52.059)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (14:02.538)\nI have no idea.\n\nSJ (14:03.003)\nHmm.\n\nSJ (14:10.481)\nMmm.\n\nLukas (14:13.678)\nOr do you just fly by the seat of your pants and kind of write without any idea? And the more I, what's fun about this new kind of full-time writing is I'm dedicating a lot of time to learning craft and studying writing and really trying to become a good writer. And the more I learn about writing, the more I'm like, oh, I got to outline shit. Like, I can't just sit down. Like, there's so much that needs to happen for it to work.\n\nKay (14:36.49)\nYou gotta have that 80 % of the way booked through Breakup.\n\nLukas (14:42.304)\nYeah, but there's still, even after that, the best parts, like writing's like a roller coaster where some days I'll sit down and write and I'm like, this is God's gift to gay romance. Like, this is the best thing that's ever been. And then the next day I'm like, what was I thinking? It's the worst thing anyone's ever written. No one's gonna read this, it's awful. And that's kind of just part of writing. But those moments where things surprise you.\n\nKay (14:55.218)\nYou\n\nSJ (14:55.889)\nHahaha\n\nSJ (15:06.682)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (15:09.646)\nare the magic where it's like, was that subconscious? Is there a muse? Did I know that was gonna connect? Like what is creating that little special thing that I had no idea was gonna be in there? And every book kind of has a moment like that where something will click that's unexpected. And that really to me is like the coolest thing in the universe. Like, I don't know what it is. I can't explain it, but it seems to happen.\n\nKay (15:33.62)\nSo how?\n\nSJ (15:34.127)\nSo have you changed over the course of your career as a writer into becoming more of a plotter architect or have you stayed kind of, you still see yourself mostly on the fly by the seat of your pants side of things?\n\nLukas (15:47.05)\nNow it's very much hybrid. I will always sit down and outline, yeah, my first, there's another pin name where I did sci-fi and fantasy books. That was so fun. Yes, that like, I just love to write y'all. Like I, that's the passion, but those were all fly by the seat of your pants. And you can totally tell where it's like.\n\nKay (15:57.545)\nReally? You've done everything.\n\nLukas (16:09.73)\nThere's even like books in a drawer that aren't published that like, it's like an earthquake will randomly happen because I was born and like, I didn't know what to do. And while that is fun, it doesn't create a satisfying arc, you know, no payoff that makes any sense. So to me, outlining is helping things get better, but I still like just sitting down and writing and seeing where it goes. So trying to like get a little bit of the best of both worlds.\n\nSJ (16:17.317)\nhaha\n\nSJ (16:28.997)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (16:36.948)\nSo how do you think that self-publishing is going to go for a gay romance compared to your other books? Or did you get publishers for your children's books and business books?\n\nLukas (16:48.334)\nSo actually just two days ago, I was at the Georgia writers, Georgia romance writers conference, which was funny because there were 160 women and one man me in this room. But these women are so bad ass. Like I sat next to this 92 year old woman who's published 200 books. She told me the story of her husband who left her for a stripper. She wrote a book about it. She made $2 million.\n\nKay (16:59.25)\nYou.\n\nSJ (17:05.563)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (17:17.294)\nthen he sued her, took the two million dollars, so she wrote a book about that and got to keep the money off of that. And like, what an incredible lady, like she is rocking her career, so I learned a ton. But what's interesting, mean, y'all know, romance is, that's the market. Like it's like 70 % of all books that sell are romance books. Gay romance is a tiny niche in there, but it is the fastest growing genre in all of publishing.\n\nSJ (17:17.765)\nYes.\n\nSJ (17:30.427)\nwanna read both of those books.\n\nSJ (17:38.992)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (17:46.71)\nSo it's starting small, but it's growing.\n\nKay (17:46.942)\nReally?\n\nKay (17:50.559)\nThat's cool. So have you self-published before? Like what platforms do you use? How long does it take to get a payoff? All that.\n\nLukas (18:00.34)\nIt's, I have self-published before and found some success with it, which is part of what kind of led me to take the corporate hop was I had a book hit the USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller lists and it was kind of like, okay, the stars seem to be aligning. Like I'm ready to go from this corporate job. I've kind of kicked the tire on writing enough. Like let's do this. But in romance, what's interesting if you go like traditional publishing.\n\nKay (18:18.046)\nThis is my time.\n\nSJ (18:20.569)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (18:29.324)\nyou end up with a very cool book in Barnes & Noble. But romance readers are voracious readers, like multiple books.\n\nSJ (18:36.219)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (18:37.796)\nEvery night. That's me. Yeah.\n\nLukas (18:39.464)\nall the time, right? Like, we are devouring these books. So it's really hard to break in, end quotes, like, with one book. Because it's just sitting on its own and then non-competes will keep you from doing anything for six months on either side of it and some of that's negotiable and, you know, it would be nice to be traditionally published.\n\nSJ (18:47.653)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (18:50.696)\nwhich is why you have three lined up right now.\n\nLukas (19:01.016)\nBut I think for romance writers that often comes after self-publishing because you have a name, you have a readership, you have an audience who's excited for whatever you're gonna do next. So self-publishing really is the name of the game. I sat next to this woman named Susan Stoker, listeners can't hear but can't see, but this is one of her books, The Soldier. She's hit the New York Times bestselling list like 80 times. And she self-publishes her entire career.\n\nKay (19:18.13)\nYeah, the soldier. Sexy guy.\n\nSJ (19:26.907)\nWow.\n\nKay (19:27.679)\nWow.\n\nLukas (19:30.698)\nAnd she was telling me about like why that's the case and why it works so well in romance. And of course there's like plenty of stuff that isn't very high quality that's possible to get through. But if you're writing good stuff and getting it edited and really taking care in time, I do think that publishing faster and taking a little bit more control of that process is a helpful way to at least make a name for myself, you yourself as an author.\n\nand then kind of go from there.\n\nKay (19:59.028)\nEspecially with freedom to write your own sex scenes without them being heavily edited by the publisher. Yeah.\n\nSJ (19:59.59)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (20:02.722)\nYes.\n\nDo y'all even know what you read as being traditionally versus self-published or doesn't matter to you?\n\nKay (20:12.713)\nSo that's funny because I read.\n\nLike Penny Reed is one of the authors that when she releases a new one, I read it. She's super good with sex scenes and everything. And I saw like a thread from her the other day and it was about how she was publishing with a company for the first time. And I was completely shocked. was like, I've been reading you for like years. I've read so many of your books. I'm shocked that you've done it all without a publisher. And she said that it really took her this long of a time that there was a company that she connected with enough and an agent that she connected with enough to take that step.\n\nLukas (20:21.379)\nYes.\n\nSJ (20:43.729)\nWell, and then you have a whole body of work to speak for you too, so they know what they're buying into, which I think is helpful. But yeah, we're just so in the age of everything is democratized by social media and self-publishing allows you to be nimble in a way. Like I, I think that book talk obviously has propelled some very mediocre books to the top. Sometimes I read the book talk favorites, but yeah, some amazing stuff.\n\nKay (21:06.044)\nAlso some great ones. I learned about really, really good ones from Threads. They only have like 10 reviews and they're great.\n\nLukas (21:11.085)\nYep.\n\nSJ (21:11.329)\nYeah, and then you can pick up on things. And I think it can just move so quickly because it's spreading through. It's not taking that delayed period of some behemoth publisher to do something with it and then edit it. You can be much more responsive to what people are interested in, that it does allow people to write in a way that I feel like has to be really different from.\n\nthe way that it used to be, same as TV where there used to be five network channels and everything was being shuttered through what the producers were ready to green light. Like now there's just such amazing content out there.\n\nKay (21:46.796)\nSo Lucas, a big discourse that happens about every two months or so on Twitter and threads, and it's happening again right now because of recent events, is pirating and the ethics of pirating or no ethics in pirating. I would like...\n\nyour opinions on it. have my own backed by research that I did last night because I was so shocked at the views I was hearing. But it would be helpful to hear somebody who's self-published and has books out there, it's opinion.\n\nLukas (22:18.798)\nI mean, pirating just in general is funny because I think we all have a relationship with it kind of in our age bracket. Like when I was growing up, I kind of hate to say, yeah, 100 % thousands of swans.\n\nKay (22:29.203)\nLucas used to steal music.\n\nSJ (22:32.145)\nI mean, we're of the generation where we all used to steal music. That was like the only way to get music.\n\nLukas (22:36.108)\nRight? Napster, Huzzah, like those were where I was getting music and that was all now looking back, right? Of course it was different. I had no resources. I couldn't afford the 99 cents. There wasn't a streaming service like Spotify, but it's crazy because we all did it. And it's hard to blame folks maybe in that situation for doing it. What seems to be getting a lot of attention in the writer world is\n\nmassive blatant pirating from huge tech companies to train their AI models where like Anthropic just lost a big lawsuit, multi-billion dollar lawsuit because they had basically... Well, it's interesting. It's class action. And basically, yes, every author, if you had your book stolen and anyone who's listening who's published a book, you should absolutely go on this website and see if any of your ISBNs were stolen.\n\nSJ (23:10.161)\nMm.\n\nKay (23:16.201)\nAre you going to get money from that? From your fantasy books?\n\nLukas (23:30.67)\nBecause yeah, you are going to get some money. It's not, you know, breaking the making the bank or retirement money, but it's a huge slap on the wrist. And it's interesting because, you know, there's all these other court cases that now have a precedent. And Facebook is a big one where there's emails from Mark Zuckerberg, where their engineering team had basically emailed him and said, I feel bad. We're on a pirating site and I'm downloading all these millions of books.\n\nKay (23:35.019)\n$10 to $15.\n\nSJ (23:55.621)\nHmm.\n\nLukas (23:59.822)\nand feeding them in, you know, like, never did I imagine doing that on my corporate laptop. And Mark is responding going, just do it, it's fine. And sadly, it probably will be fine, right? Like, they're just gonna pay a few billion dollars, which sounds like a lot, but is nothing. So it's weird, interesting, like the AI kind of rabbits out of the hat.\n\nSJ (24:10.061)\nUGH\n\nSJ (24:14.201)\nYeah, like why do they care?\n\nKay (24:14.495)\nwhich is nothing for them.\n\nLukas (24:23.064)\nbut it's trained in an illegal way on the backs of all these amazing creators and authors and artists and all these different mediums. So it's hard to be okay with pirating. Even though I grew up as a pirater of music, it seems like it's becoming something different. And I don't like that at all as somebody who wants to make a living off creative work.\n\nKay (24:47.339)\nYeah. And so what I saw are kind of like two main arguments. And one is, you know, some people live in countries that either don't have libraries or don't have the types of libraries that are going to have books that aren't educational at them. And some people really can't even afford food and they want to read. Do you want to take that away? And so I was interested in this. was like, are these really the people who are pirating? And there was a study done by Nielsen, like a consumer report study that showed that about 70 % of people who pirate\n\nhave college or more education and they make around like greater than the average US salary. So that's not actually the majority of pirators. So I don't, you there's, think there's that move of making like people feel.\n\nSJ (25:20.24)\nHmm.\n\nKay (25:29.791)\nguilty, like, of course, I don't want, you know, somebody in a poor country without anything not to have access to my book if they want it. And then the other thing is like, well, everybody's all right with like secondhand books and thrifting, but there's kind of a difference like one hard copy that one person bought and then sells to a secondhand store that gets consumed very slowly, whereas one stolen ebook posted online can then be downloaded by, you know, thousands of people who then don't buy that author's book.\n\nSJ (25:30.576)\nYeah.\n\nKay (25:59.748)\nAnd ultimately, even for authors like Ali Hazelwood, Sarah J. Moss, who are highly popular, that means that those of us who are paying for the book are probably paying a little bit more because they need to make their margins. And they're going to do it by charging the people who will pay more. But I was just, I know.\n\nI'm still seeing both sides of the argument. I was surprised that there was such a pro-pirating argument, but I overall was like, I mean, it's it's theft. If an author wants to make their book freely available, that that author can choose to do so, do it like three different ways. You can't decide for that author that their book should be listed for free.\n\nLukas (26:27.627)\nIt sucks.\n\nSJ (26:28.837)\nYeah.\n\nLukas (26:40.706)\nI totally agree. And we could go down the rabbit hole of like, there's not a lot of pirating on Google, but there is a lot of pirating on Amazon and it's all tech choices. It's like, well, Amazon, why don't you just implement this tech? And they don't. And it leads to a ton of pirating. And it's like, well, what's going on? know, like I always like to try and find the people with power who can do, you know, it's hard to blame like Bob on the street for pirating something. You can, and that's wrong and don't steal it Bob, but like,\n\nSJ (26:53.84)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (27:05.188)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (27:08.78)\nYou know, Jeff Bezos and your company, you could probably do something about this to make it a little bit harder for those bad actors. Why aren't you as multi-billionaires who have a lot of power in this ecosystem doing a little more to protect folks who are getting taken advantage of?\n\nKay (27:25.501)\nIt seems like it would be a relatively easy step to make sure that the ebooks aren't posted online. So yeah, I spent too much time in those argument forums last night. My partner was like, you just need to go to bed. So.\n\nSJ (27:26.15)\nYeah.\n\nKay (27:43.084)\nWhen it comes to, I guess, kind of a question like how you're going to market, because I would imagine that you're usually able for business and children's to use your name and your existing reputation to market your book, or does that not have that much to do about it when you self-publish?\n\nLukas (28:00.29)\nSo Lucas doesn't exist in the world at all. He doesn't even have a last name yet. Yes, you need a last name. Give us ideas. feel like it's like, you know, I'm using the drag queen name generators or whatever. And like, okay, is it my street that I grew up on or something? Yeah, yeah. I think it will be hard. I feel like this will be a challenge to actually break in. So.\n\nKay (28:03.966)\nLucas doesn't have a last name yet, come on.\n\nKay (28:11.5)\nI was going to say like.\n\nSJ (28:12.24)\nHaha.\n\nLucas Lovegood, yeah.\n\nKay (28:19.902)\nHahaha!\n\nLukas (28:27.158)\nWhat I'm trying to do is stack a bunch of books that are ready because like we talked about, it's kind of like a high velocity genre. So I wanna have a bunch of books that are ready before I try and market any of them. Because while I think...\n\nKay (28:41.952)\nSee, I have no patience. Like I'm shocked that you haven't published Piglet Your Fantasy yet. I'm like, it was, it wasn't there.\n\nLukas (28:45.626)\nmy gosh, I'm starting to... I'm like slowly losing the willpower for the idea that I have to do this. Cause now I have six that are basically ready. And I think I want a few more and maybe do one a month or one every other month. I don't really know exactly how many makes sense. And I love writing too. Like this is what I... So I have to push myself to get out there and just like, they're not going to be perfect. Put them into the world and do it.\n\nKay (29:00.299)\nmy gosh.\n\nSJ (29:11.195)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (29:11.98)\nWhile keeping Lucas's privacy, Lucas also talks to lot of business leaders and you know what they would say in this situation. You have to start releasing. Yeah. Yeah.\n\nLukas (29:20.662)\nYou just got a lot. Yeah.\n\nSJ (29:21.777)\nLean, lean startup mentality. You just start going and it doesn't have to be perfect. You go, you launch the product at 80%. So yeah.\n\nKay (29:29.321)\nWhy do you think we have the most imperfect audio podcast out there? It's like, yeah.\n\nLukas (29:34.894)\nY'all are right, need to channel all of this energy.\n\nSJ (29:35.407)\nAlso because we don't know how to do audio, okay?\n\nKay (29:38.732)\nIt's going to take us until like episode 100.\n\nLukas (29:40.84)\nI am loving your podcast.\n\nSJ (29:41.201)\nMay we have towards towards hyping your eventual hard or soft lunch. May we have some sneak peeks into some of the other pre-published books in the in the Lucas Library.\n\nKay (29:54.676)\nYeah, what books are you excited about?\n\nLukas (29:56.98)\nYeah, so I think what my big, so I'm excited about this. This Blitz published strategy seems like it's a good idea. And I think what I'm most nervous about in trying to build an audience is what it seems like a lot of people. So y'all tell me what you think. Like, seems like a lot of folks want like a small town or world and then a bunch of books with different couples falling in love in that world.\n\nKay (29:59.819)\nNow you have to publish it because you're saying it out loud.\n\nSJ (30:23.249)\nPeople do love that.\n\nKay (30:25.962)\nHmm. I thought that was just easier for the author to do that. I thought that was like the author already created the world and the characters.\n\nSJ (30:30.169)\nNo, people love that K. That's that Hallmark shit. And if there is anything that I want, I feel like a lot of, I see a lot of internet stuff about how people want like the Hallmark Christmas thing, but slightly turned on its head. Like that the girl with the high powered job actually like does choose the career and finds a man that supports her in her lawyer job. Or yeah, that the hometown boy actually turns out to be gay and you know.\n\nKay (30:53.94)\nEmily Henry, Booksmart.\n\nSJ (30:57.733)\nfalls in love with his former science teacher or something like that.\n\nKay (31:02.796)\nHmm. I don't know. I like it just because I I read them because I like that author. So I'll read more. But also sometimes I already have an opinion in my head about who that like side character is. And I didn't necessarily need to know. I don't know. Like to me, like a side character is a side character. But I still read all of them.\n\nLukas (31:21.463)\nWell, you\n\nSJ (31:24.377)\nAnd I don't think I'm the target audience either, but I know that the target audience is out there because there is a lot of them. And I think that people do really eat that up. The people who are the voracious readers who are just like wanting something and that you want it to be sexy, but also cozy.\n\nKay (31:36.204)\nSo there is more sexy pick up all players out there. That's what Lucas is telling us.\n\nSJ (31:40.943)\nYeah, we want to hear Victor's story.\n\nLukas (31:41.176)\nWell, kinda. I mean, it's interesting. That would be smart, I think, to do that. I worry that I don't really want to do that. I'll do it a little bit. I may have a couple books in the same world, but honestly, there's this platform called Klytics which shows you the trends of what people are reading.\n\nAnd the really savvy authors in romance are going to that report and writing the number one thing. So if I'm the smartest author, I would be writing a hockey romance and then I would write seven more hockey romances in the same small town.\n\nKay (32:13.516)\nJust if you do a hockey romance, it's it's not points, it's goals. That's all. And they're periods, not quarters. Yeah, I just sometimes when I'm reading one, I'm like, oh, we couldn't have done that basic level. Okay, that's all right. I still love you. I'm still gonna read 20 more of your books and you know, stay up until 3 a.m. Yeah. Yeah.\n\nLukas (32:17.29)\nYeah, okay, that's good. They don't score touchdowns?\n\nSJ (32:28.795)\nGreat sex scene though, congratulations.\n\nLukas (32:31.074)\nThat's right, yeah, we like the locker room, we like the tension, whatever, the sport can happen on the side. But I think I want to write a cross.\n\nSJ (32:37.713)\nWell, that is what I think is that, yeah. And I think, like you said, since LGBT romance is such a small slice of it, there's so much room. Like, anything that you do in the straight people genres has been done before. Not that that stops people from enjoying it, writing it well, and lots of different iterations. But it's like, has anybody done the Small Town hockey series from a gay perspective yet? I don't know. But I feel like there's a lot more room to innovate there than there would be on the...\n\nstraight side of things. Kay, you're thinking, like you probably have read the gay hockey series.\n\nKay (33:07.468)\nBut that's actually an interesting thing Lucas. no, guess so if anybody's read Susie Tate and I the reason why she's somewhat justified in doing it to me is because she is a GP in Britain where she cares for women who did experience abuse. But all of her characters, like all of her main female characters have had a history where they're coming from either domestic violence, sexual assault and\n\nAnd it's kind of beautiful because she gives them like these happy endings. But at the same time, she does always create like the worlds. Like there's always five books from one world. And at some point it becomes like, well, how are there like five women in one world who did not meet like at a shelter or something who have all had these like extreme histories of domestic violence and sexual assault? You know, the rates are higher than they need to be, but they're not that high. And I kind of wonder.\n\nSJ (33:47.291)\nHmm.\n\nKay (34:03.552)\nWhen I'm thinking about it for gay romance, I guess I'm wondering like, well, like how many people in one world who all know each other are all going to be, you know, have some story, like what is like the prevalence there and are we kind of bending the rules of reality to say like, you know, if there was five guys on a tennis team, like they're all gonna eventually be matched up together. One, one Thurple. Yeah.\n\nSJ (34:24.113)\nOkay, first of all, Kay, I do think that how is hockey and football not attracting all of the gay guys? I mean, there's the locker rooms, there's the ass slapping. It is not totally out of the realm of possibility for me that there's a higher than normal percentage of gay guys in the hockey locker room.\n\nLukas (34:42.685)\ntotally. We're there watching the highlight clips that nobody else is watching at least.\n\nKay (34:46.342)\nYou know, I forgot I totally meant Joe Burrow to be your third option for Mary Fuckkill.\n\nLukas (34:52.526)\nyeah, we could get interesting. some athletes in there.\n\nKay (34:57.994)\nYes, Joe Burrow, to do what people do to Matt, Sean Mendo's to you, but you're all worth that person, Olivia. So think you've been overall, know.\n\nSJ (35:00.849)\nwe should do athlete version.\n\nLukas (35:08.896)\nYeah, yeah. I do think you're right though, there's a lot of stories yet to be told, which is amazing. Like that's, there's so many versions and sub-genres and all, like, I don't know, I have a thriller and a contemporary and have y'all heard of this genre called Lit RPG? This is the book I just finished drafting, which I'm obsessed with right now because I always like-\n\nSJ (35:27.44)\nNo.\n\nKay (35:28.34)\nI have no idea what let RGP stands for though.\n\nLukas (35:31.412)\nOkay, so it's a literature role-playing game. Yes, nailed it. So it's very like Dungeons and Dragons-y, but it's basically video game mechanics in a book. So your character's like...\n\nSJ (35:31.791)\nRPG, like, role-player game? Yeah.\n\nLukas (35:44.374)\nare level one and then they have to kill things to gain experience and they level up and distribute stat points and open loot boxes and like basically they get more powerful and stronger as they go through this world and it's kind of a sub sub genre that's taking off there's this book that's really popular called Dungeon Crawler Carl\n\nKay (35:58.936)\nHmm.\n\nLukas (36:02.604)\nwhich now just signed for all these TV and movie deals and like it really is like this huge phenomenon. I'm like, what if it was gay? Like what if you did a gay romance in this genre, which I don't think exists anywhere.\n\nKay (36:13.323)\nI was gonna say it sounds cool, but I would need some my love story in it to whenever read it. Yeah.\n\nLukas (36:17.738)\nIt's gotta be a love story still, 100%. But all of this to me is just fun, but it makes me nervous about like, yeah, because I think it's so random. Like do the small town hockey, that's what people want. But it just seems boring to do the same thing over and over again versus explore all these different stories that haven't been told yet in lots of different sub genres. So long as it's still guys falling in love happily ever after. Like that's what I want, that's the thing.\n\nSJ (36:22.821)\nBut wouldn't we love a sexy RPG?\n\nKay (36:25.899)\nWhy does it make you nervous?\n\nSJ (36:47.313)\nThey're like small town hockey, they're shape shifters that turn into ravens.\n\nKay (36:47.595)\nI wonder about like every other, but one of your books. Yeah, yeah, as she reads normal books, so when I tell her like, yeah.\n\nLukas (36:52.3)\nYes, let's do that. I'm with you. Now we're interesting.\n\nSJ (36:55.473)\nBecause you're already there with the fantasy book and the romance. Yeah, and I think that there's so much to mine. Hot centaurs, for example, like there just seems like there's a lot of room for a romantasy, for gay romantasy.\n\nKay (37:05.229)\nI read the weirdest stuff Lucas that's what that's what SJ is referring to.\n\nLukas (37:11.468)\nHave y'all read Mate Hub Legend? I just read this book by Mary Reynard and it's the first... I did not meet her. I would want to. So it's the first shifter and like Omegaverse book that I've ever read. I knew like Omegaverse, what the hell is this? And so was like, let me read what seems to be the best one. And this is what I found. my gosh. I was like, this is so good. This is so sexy. I had no idea it even existed as a genre.\n\nKay (37:16.661)\nIs that another person who you met at your like women's book conference?\n\nKay (37:35.239)\nokay, cool. Then can you show me the title one more time? Don't worry. Mate Hub legend. I think when people are shifters, the thing is that you get to do that kind of sexier, crazier behavior, but you justify it and that like, well, of course, it's like his werewolf jeans that make him like that. like, yeah.\n\nLukas (37:40.437)\nMayhub legend.\n\nLukas (37:51.948)\nRight. Yeah. Anything that you want and explain it away.\n\nSJ (37:53.296)\nYeah.\n\nKay (37:56.77)\nthat I read a book with a throughput. It was hot. I don't want one in real life, but it was hot when I was reading it. But they were like, well, it's because Ravens like for Ravens, a female chooses and so if the female doesn't choose the men will just keep on both going. I was like, yeah. I don't know if it's actually true about Ravens. So don't go quoting me. Yeah. When you're watching Ravens in the wild, don't be like, look, the two men are both going to go for her because that's what Kelly read in her romance book.\n\nSJ (37:57.734)\nYeah, it's magic.\n\nSJ (38:06.577)\nThrepling is normal.\n\nLukas (38:09.656)\nThat's perfect explanation, I'm there with you, see?\n\nSJ (38:13.329)\nBecause ravens.\n\nSJ (38:23.535)\nI know mallard ducks are gay, why not ravens throuples?\n\nKay (38:27.681)\nThere's some important questions I wanted to get through before we hit the end of our time. One really important question is how hard is it to decide the names for appendages when you are writing gay romance or romance in general?\n\nLukas (38:44.654)\nSo this question is so funny because there's like a sexy answer and then an unsexy. The sexy answer is like read all the good sex scenes that you can. Like that's how I get ideas for sex scenes and try and write good ones is like, look at the masters of this craft and see what they're calling it. Usually it's just call it what it is. Like referring to it as something else. I always feel like it's so weird. Like my husband's... Yeah.\n\nKay (39:07.021)\npenis. So you don't want to say like his bratwurst or something. His steak. That would take me out of the scene.\n\nSJ (39:10.809)\nWhen they're like his scepter, I grasped his scepter.\n\nLukas (39:15.576)\nSo my husband used to call it a doinker when he was a kid. I'm like, I'm not using doinker in my book, but thank you. But the unsexy answer is it really is like study this stuff. there's.\n\nSJ (39:19.643)\nWell, that's sexy.\n\nLukas (39:29.586)\nof podcasts and YouTube videos and articles on how do you write good sex scenes which is so funny to think of as like this craft that you can learn but that's the real answer is like well people teach hour-long classes on the answer to that question and I want to go to it and make sure that I do a good job\n\nKay (39:48.429)\nSo what words have you landed on? Probably just calling it what it is. Yeah.\n\nLukas (39:51.254)\nIt's usually gonna be penis and talk and you know, like those are gonna be the winners most of the time. What have you seen that you like? Is there one I'm not hitting on that needs to be said?\n\nSJ (39:56.731)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (39:59.309)\nYeah.\n\nKay (40:04.653)\nI feel like for women it's when like the weirder words are used like there's a lot of like her core and it's like well core is literally like described as her abdomen during Pilates class so like when you say core I'm thinking more of like muscles I don't know\n\nSJ (40:14.747)\nI do.\n\nLukas (40:17.762)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (40:18.833)\nYeah, I feel like Kay and I giggle at each other across the gym now when they're like, all right, now is the core part of the workout, having previously discussed the usage of the term core to discuss female genitalia.\n\nKay (40:25.661)\nYeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like all water, like I don't know, warm, warm, a warm, wet feeling flood into my core. It's like, that's an abdomen.\n\nLukas (40:39.628)\nYeah, there is a lot of like, okay, how much lube needs to be used in gay sex? Cause it's like, well, it's not just getting wet down there. Like that's not a real thing in real life. So it's just going to be realistic.\n\nSJ (40:49.819)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (40:50.797)\nAnd that was the one thing that as a straight reader, like when you had that, like the one, you know, the character like spat into his hand to get, I'm like, well, for me, like if a guy were to spit into his hand, I'd be like, okay, come on, you just need to like work a little bit more here for it. Or, know, unless there was like a problem or something like that, then we do need lube. But, but, but so to me, the spit felt like.\n\nNo, but then that's just as you said, there's not like otherwise if you guys just took some time to warm up all of sudden your penis was gonna have like, know, yeah, so we're done.\n\nLukas (41:19.244)\nI mean, that's way more realistic than it just working otherwise. Like, yeah.\n\nKay (41:25.183)\nYeah, that's interesting. It makes sense. Again, your scenes worked. They did the job. I enjoyed them as a straight reader. however you, whatever classes and podcasts and all that that you want to make sure that you had the terms right, it did the job.\n\nLukas (41:40.384)\nAlso just asking gay guys like what did this scene do for you? Did it work or not? Like it's like okay, this is the ultimate test if it's working.\n\nKay (41:48.65)\nYeah, my partner can always tell if they're a good scene because I'm like, are you busy now? Are you busy now? Do you have like 10 minutes to spare? Yeah. And he's like, OK, I like whatever author you're reading right now. Please go back to them. OK, well, we're kind of getting to the end of our time. Is there anything, SJ and Lucas, that we should talk about before we go? And I can edit this part out.\n\nSJ (41:49.595)\nYeah.\n\nLukas (42:00.578)\nWe can't talk.\n\nSJ (42:17.595)\nWell, actually, I was going to ask a follow up question about asking your other gay friends, Lucas, on how the scene hit for them. One of the characters in your book is one of the main characters best friend, and she's a straight woman who writes gay romance. And I have read some before where\n\nKay (42:18.029)\nThanks.\n\nKay (42:36.437)\nAnd I loved her.\n\nSJ (42:38.157)\nYeah, I loved that character. And I felt like she was the person that I identified most with in the book. But I have read some books before and then the reviews on them were like, this was like gay romance obviously written by a straight person. This sex scene is not how it would. How do you feel about straight people writing gay romance?\n\nLukas (42:58.35)\nThat's a good question. it's definitely, that's the norm. Like the people who are writing gay romance are straight women, pretty much 90 % of the time. Then there's breakouts like TJ Klune who had House of the Cerulean seat. Like there's some breakout folks who are men writing this. And of course there's trans folks who are writing all across the spectrum.\n\nSJ (43:00.817)\nYeah\n\nSJ (43:11.259)\nMm-hmm, mm-hmm.\n\nLukas (43:20.226)\nBut for the most part, it's straight women writing this and straight women reading it too, which is also funny because I'm like, so that my audience is not gay guys. Usually it's straight women. So does that change what, you know, I need to be writing at all? And I haven't really decided the answer is yes at all, but it doesn't bother me.\n\nSJ (43:24.357)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (43:29.487)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (43:37.591)\nWell, that's because I loved Izzy. Izzy is her name, So for me, it's like, if Izzy appeared sooner and was more sprinkled through scenes, then I would have had my character I relate to sooner. But then if I'm not the target audience, then Izzy doesn't even have to show up at all.\n\nLukas (43:40.908)\nYeah, yeah.\n\nLukas (43:53.614)\nI think that's, mean, both of y'all mentioned that and some of my other beta readers have said the same, like, if the only women are the antagonist, like, is this really, you know, like a fleshed out world? And I think that's a good question. Like, I need to think about that and where do I want the story to go and what's the role of women? And there is some amazing women in this world that just took a minute to get to, but I like that. need to think about her.\n\nKay (44:14.722)\nHahaha\n\nSJ (44:15.791)\nWe don't have to be, the straight women don't have to be centered in every narrative. Like I feel like there should be like a straight person Bechdel test. Like it doesn't have to pass the straight person Bechdel test. Those characters don't have to be fleshed out. I think also if there are straight women who are, you know, finding that that's particularly hot for them to read gay romance, like there's that voyeuristic piece of it that when they're kind of taken out, that it's like similar to the thing where he, there's a scene where.\n\nKay (44:18.444)\nYeah, no, we don't have to be. was in...\n\nSJ (44:43.523)\none of the main characters sees the other one that he leaves the door open while he's jacking off. And I think that that's kind of like that perspective for straight women that I have read somewhere that they are clearly written by straight women. And I think that it's just kind of clunky. And you can tell that. Like, it's better to read something that you know was not written for you, even if that was actually the target audience or that is 90 % of who's reading it.\n\nLukas (45:09.622)\nI'm excited, I feel like there is like a market for a gay guy to write this genre. Like I'm experiencing gay romance. I, you know, like I know this. But we'll see. I don't know. These women are also incredible writers. What's funny, like I've been trying to network with all these, you know, writers. And so I just send them emails, which I don't blame anyone for not getting back to me. Like people are busy and I'm sure they have lots of fans who are reaching out to them. But some.\n\nSJ (45:14.821)\nMm-hmm\n\nYou have to be better at it.\n\nKay (45:32.662)\nHahaha!\n\nLukas (45:36.982)\nLike, I'll shout out Serena Bowen, who wrote Him, which is a hockey romance, and it's amazing. But she's written quite a few gay romances. She writes straight romance. Yeah.\n\nKay (45:46.734)\nShe wrote him? Him as a biofemale author? Why didn't I not even know that?\n\nLukas (45:51.36)\nIt's Elle Kennedy, who's like mega and Serena Bowen, who are both New York Times USA Today bestsellers in straight romance. And then they wrote some gay stuff too.\n\nBut she got back to me and like we're talking and she's so cool and so helpful and knowledgeable and it's not like we're like chatting all the time like besties but there have been a couple straight women who are big in this genre who do respond and take the time and be like, I actually think it's cool that a guy is doing it. There are a few like men who've responded to me as well. What does rub me the wrong way is like gatekeeping straight women who are writing gay romance who like\n\nKay (46:04.951)\nMind blowing.\n\nSJ (46:32.294)\nYeah.\n\nLukas (46:33.122)\ndon't want to be helpful and don't want anybody else to get in and feel it's competitive. like, there's plenty of readers for everyone to be successful, but that's where I'm like, come on.\n\nKay (46:40.684)\nWell, again, it's that you pointed out, like how we consume. It's like it's so much, you know, like I. Yeah.\n\nSJ (46:47.001)\nYeah, it doesn't need to have a scarcity mentality. There's a lot of readers out there reading a lot of smut.\n\nLukas (46:53.346)\nTotally\n\nKay (46:53.518)\nI'm probably like three to four books a week. Me liking one author does not mean that I do not have room for thousands of other authors.\n\nLukas (47:02.466)\nWhat are y'all reading right now? I just started Monstress by, I think her name is Mary something, but it's apparently Amazing Monster One and I'm thinking about writing a Monster One so I need to read the best.\n\nKay (47:17.548)\nSo.\n\nI actually downloaded Echoes of Hollow and Ember last night because I saw the author post about it and she's like, I'm so excited. I just got to 50 reviews on Goodreads and my average is like 4.5. I was like, wait, 4.5 is really high. And then I went and read them and I thought that it sounded pretty interesting. It's a little bit darker than I thought it was going to be and maybe a little less romance-y, but I'm enjoying it. And it's a totally different, unique world than anything I've read so far.\n\nSo having fun with it.\n\nLukas (47:49.364)\nOkay. I wrote it down, I need to read it.\n\nKay (47:52.832)\nThat's true.\n\nSJ (47:53.252)\nI balance my podcasting smut life with my normal day-to-day life where I'm in a book club that Kay makes fun of me because we usually read very serious books. So I like the diversity of the literature I'm consuming. So yeah, but right now I'm reading His Hideous Heart, which is a collection of, I think they're all YA authors retelling Edgar Allan Poe stories and poems.\n\nKay (48:04.632)\nHighly intelligent.\n\nLukas (48:08.808)\nof course, we're all reading, yeah.\n\nSJ (48:21.753)\nAnd so it's like there are spins or takes on Edgar Allan Poe stuff for spooky season. So it's pretty good. Yeah.\n\nLukas (48:27.116)\nI like it. How do y'all feel about retellings? Are we over it? Like, Pride and Prejudice zombies, Pride and Prejudice aliens in space, Pride and Prejudice everything, or not yet?\n\nKay (48:36.63)\nIsn't there like a comfort to like a stories and characters you kind of have already? For the most part, I try to read new things. I try to find out people who are early on because I feel like those initial reads and downloads and all that matters so much. But sometimes it's nice to go to something that you just like, you know, the people already and all that. So I don't know. That being said, I've never read Pride and Prejudice Zombies before.\n\nSJ (48:36.919)\nYeah, this is good question.\n\nSJ (49:01.379)\nI thought I did read that one and I did think it was funny because it was so far off of, it wasn't like in the way that I feel like the Bridgerton is trying to take the concept of that Regency era stuff but make it kind of modern but kind of not. They kind of lose me more with that. I'm like, just kind of go your own direction and pick your own thing. Whereas Pride and Prejudice and Zombies was hilarious. I think it depends how much I like the original thing that they're retelling.\n\nLukas (49:04.142)\nIt's good.\n\nSJ (49:29.603)\nAnd I'm finding that with the Edgar Allan Poe one is the stories that I'm familiar with that I remember really liking and reading. If somebody tries to retell it, I'm kind of like, that was already pretty good versus ones that I wasn't as familiar with that are his lesser known works. It was kind of fun to hear them retold in a modern way that helps me maybe connect with it more if I hadn't connected the first time.\n\nLukas (49:51.242)\nI like that. think that's good advice. Like deviate a lot. Make it real weird and then it can be fun again.\n\nSJ (49:54.918)\nYeah. Yeah, yeah. To put zombies in it, like shape-shifting ravens, just throw it all in there and then I'm... Yeah. Jane Austen would be proud.\n\nKay (49:58.717)\nyou\n\nLukas (50:01.13)\nYeah, then we know where it goes already. It tells itself.\n\nKay (50:04.088)\nThat's it.\n\nYeah, she's referring to I told her Feathers So Vicious by Liv Sander was what I read last week. And like, did I stay up until like very, very late finishing it? Did I get like super turned on during the scenes? Like all those things are true. But it was like so dark. Like I cannot I want my best friends to stay away from that book because it was so dark and twisty, even though it's still it's just like the second I get 20 % of the way through a book, I care too much about the characters even no matter what else is happening.\n\nSJ (50:18.309)\nHehehe\n\nLukas (50:25.206)\noooo\n\nKay (50:35.054)\ncare too much. can't stop reading.\n\nLukas (50:37.802)\nI found at this conference something that I never knew existed. Do y'all ever skip the sex scenes when you're reading? There were like a ton of people attending who were like, I just skimmed through them. I'm like, really? I usually feel like that's the payoff to a lot of the reading experience.\n\nSJ (50:51.249)\nEspecially for some romance kind of books where the character development part is not what you came to that book for. Like you just came for the sex scene. I guess it kind of depends what I'm reading the book for and how the quality of the writing is overall.\n\nKay (50:51.574)\nif there is seven to eight of them.\n\nKay (51:05.176)\nSo if I stayed up really late to finish a book and maybe like it's 400 pages let's say and there was already like four to five sex scenes then I might skip the last one to find out like how everything resolves so I can go to sleep and then I'll go back and read it the next day. But yeah, I have problems. Yeah.\n\nLukas (51:24.301)\nNice.\n\nSJ (51:24.369)\nYeah, was going to say save the sex. I have done that before. Save the sex scenes for when you can have you can fulfill that character arc. Yeah, exactly.\n\nLukas (51:31.632)\nYou're not on the train.\n\nKay (51:31.703)\nYeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give my husband a break. Yeah. It's a Monday. It's been three times. Yeah.\n\nSJ (51:40.837)\nEspecially when you have kids. I feel like then my kids will be running around downstairs and I'm like getting to the sexy part in a book and I'm like, we're not gonna do that part right now.\n\nKay (51:48.652)\nYeah, we don't have we don't have that time right now. So.\n\nLukas (51:52.566)\nI'm sure y'all have seen that Saturday Night Live skit where she's listening to 50 Shades of Grey and like it's Mother's Day and the kids run in and all. Yeah, that's what I'm channeling right now.\n\nSJ (51:56.439)\nOkay.\n\nSJ (52:02.319)\nI have definitely been next to the person on the train where I look over at what they have on their screen and I'm like, I feel a little weird sitting next to you right now. you do want, you don't want a little bit of privacy for this part of the book? Like.\n\nKay (52:02.585)\nYeah, it's like just...\n\nLukas (52:16.248)\nI had an embarrassing, well, so that's embarrassing, a different spectrum. I was reading Jodie Buccault's My Sister's Keeper on the L in Chicago and bawling my eyes out. I was just sobbing and someone came over and was like, are you okay? And I showed him the book. He just goes, I've read it too, I understand. It was the best response. like, yes, okay.\n\nKay (52:16.707)\nYeah.\n\nSJ (52:25.061)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (52:25.306)\nmy gosh, did you cry? Yeah.\n\nSJ (52:31.599)\nYou're like, it's just so good.\n\nKay (52:37.315)\nThat's Sarah J Maas, Crescent City. first book ends with like the most heartbreaking scene. And I was going for a run and I was listening to an audio book of it. And like when I realized what was happening, I had to like stop. And I mean, I'm just like out on like, you the water path running and just it was so sad. It was devastating. So, yes, I have been I have read all the all the types of scenes in public.\n\nSo to to end off I want to hear from Lucas what is your favorite romance trope?\n\nLukas (53:13.986)\nFavorite romance trope? mean, I love a good forced proximity. I think there need to be an excuse for these people to fall in love. Like, it's fun when it's, you know, something, but I love something outlandish forcing characters together to spend a ton of time, lots of banter, and then, you know, we get the payoff there. So I love forced proximity. I also do...\n\nSJ (53:21.627)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (53:35.918)\nI kinda like friends to lovers as well. Enemies to lovers can be fun, but I also agree, I don't have a ton of enemies. Real true enemies in my life. Or like you said, am I gonna fall in love with them? Yeah, I don't know how real that is. It can be fun. I like Grumpy Sunshine, which in my mind is a more real version of enemies to lovers, a little bit where it's like they don't match, but then they end up still being in love.\n\nSJ (53:39.515)\nMm-hmm.\n\nSJ (53:46.735)\nRight? And if you did, you probably are just like, ugh.\n\nSJ (53:58.94)\nMm-hmm.\n\nLukas (54:02.764)\nAnd I've heard that phrase, nobody likes a jelly and jelly sandwich, which feels really true. I think as kids, we imagine our partner is gonna be someone like us, and then usually we end up with someone who's totally not like us, and that's why it works.\n\nKay (54:06.401)\nHahaha\n\nSJ (54:15.345)\nYeah. Are you in your relationship, do you feel like you're a grumpy sunshine relationship? And if so, which are you?\n\nLukas (54:24.686)\nIt's funny, so I'm definitely like a smile, like my default face is to smile. So I am absolutely that, but I'm an introvert, which might, isn't maybe surprising because I like to write books. Like I go into a coffee shop and just put in my headphones and spend eight hours there very happily.\n\nKay (54:24.697)\nHe's definitely the grumpy. Just kidding.\n\nSJ (54:31.473)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (54:40.527)\nOh my God, so we're like forcing you to exhaust yourself right now.\n\nLukas (54:44.098)\nWell, I mean, I like this stuff, but it does say...\n\nSJ (54:46.405)\nNow he's gonna have to go after this call and write a bunch of Centaur hockey player books anyway with all the inspiration that we've had.\n\nLukas (54:50.218)\nThat's exactly it. I've got a sex scene that I have to write and that's why I ended yesterday because I was like, ooh yay, now I get to write a sex scene today rather than pushing through. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like I may actually be the grumpy one because my husband is just the kindest, nicest person on the planet, which is wonderful. But I'm definitely not that.\n\nKay (54:50.664)\nThe crossover.\n\nSJ (54:57.413)\nHehehehe\n\nKay (54:58.04)\nYou\n\nKay (55:10.511)\nI think that on the surface, my husband and I look like Grumpy Sunshine or he's grumpy and I'm sunshine, but he's actually much kinder and more patient and more curious than I am. Yes. So people realize that pretty quickly on. Well, it was.\n\nLukas (55:21.239)\nthe other way.\n\nSJ (55:25.649)\nYeah, I'd say same.\n\nKay (55:27.375)\nSo great talking to you Lucas. can't wait until Pickle Your Fancy and apparently nine other books all come out at the same time. I can't wait until the audience gets to receive them as well. And it was just... Yes, 100 % here to hype you.\n\n","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":12,"createdAt":"2025-10-07T11:12:34.550Z","updatedAt":"2025-10-07T11:12:34.550Z"},{"id":11,"title":"Nice Guys Finish...In the Friendzone with a Boombox","slug":"Nice-Guys-Finish-in-the-Friendzone-with-a-Boombox","description":"The Good Girls tackle the \"nice guy\" phenomenon: are they truly good, or just insecure dudes waiting for a vending machine that pays out sex after 3 dates? We play Marry, Fuck, Rapture with three famous nice guys, debate toxic positivity, and talk about odd nice guy sex scenes...in throuples because why not. From incel Reddit rants to the allure of bad-but-good boys like Mr. Darcy and Xaden, we talk confidence, agency, and why grocery store sushi doesn’t buy love...or sexy time with Kay. Plus, a Rosh Hashanah tribute to nice Jewish boys and a daddy kink update with Sandy Cohen. Grab your headphones for this unfiltered episode!","spotifyEmbedId":"6HDcpoZXvxOaR1lesfAz1w","releaseDate":"September 30, 2025","duration":"46 minutes","topics":["Communication","Relationships","sex stories","sex"],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":11,"createdAt":"2025-11-19T17:39:28.518Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T17:41:40.858Z"},{"id":10,"title":"Daddy Kinks, Bad Boys, and Bosses...Why Can't We Quit You?","slug":"Daddy-Kinks-Bad-Boys-and-Bosses-Why-Cant-We-Quit-You","description":"Hosts SJ and Kay dive into the allure of daddy kinks, bad boys, and boss-secretary tropes with a game of Marry, Fuck, Kill. They explore the psychological pull of age gaps, sexy Shadow Daddies from Xaden Riorson to Mr. Darcy, and power dynamics in fiction versus real life. The ethics of relationships with undeniable power imbalances are questioned...while fictional romance books and movies with these same imbalances are embraced...including by Kay. As usual, the hosts blend humor, personal stories, and sharp insights, encouraging listeners to embrace their kinks while critically examining these steamy and prevalent tropes. Who does SJ pick to do the dirty with in the choice of our real-life Shadow Daddy/Bad Boy Kurt Cobain, our Daddy Mr. Big, and our Boss Christian Grey? Listen to find out!","spotifyEmbedId":"3RrlYKHltSdUnPPugwDWkf","releaseDate":"September 23, 2025","duration":"44 minutes","topics":["sex","romance","dating"],"transcript":"Kay (00:16)\ntoday we're talking about daddy kinks, bad boys, boss, secretary, teacher, students, all of my favorite tropes. I will see who's favorite tropes they are. So to start off the episode and introduce the three main ones that we're going to be talking about, we are going to do Mary Fuck Kill. Are you ready?\n\nSJ (00:17)\nwe're talking about daddy King, bad boys, boss, secretary, teacher, students, all our favorite tropes.\n\nOkay, favorite tropes.\n\nYes. Always favorite\n\ngame.\n\nKay (00:43)\nSo we have four or three contenders. Our daddy kink is going to be Mr. Big from Sex and the City. The age gap was never explicitly given a number, but it's estimated to be about 15 years between him and Carrie. He definitely has hot bags. And I was sitting there as a teenager like, wow, he's so hot. I totally think that Carrie should go for him. So anyways, this is SJ's decision. ⁓\n\nSJ (00:47)\n⁓ He did just have dad vibes to daddy vibes. will confess on this one, not\n\na like major Sex in the City listener, but have caught enough of the cultural\n\nSex in the City zeitgeist to be able to answer this. So continue.\n\nKay (01:20)\nOur bad boy was very, very tough to choose, but I went with Kurt Cobain, front man of Nirvana, grunge icon, self-destructive tendencies. And then for our boss, also a tough one, but I went with Christian Gray from 50 Shades of Gray, CEO of Gray Enterprises. Yes, his job is business and his girl, yes, girl does not know how to use a laptop.\n\nSJ (01:25)\nHmm, okay.\n\nHis job is business. And he does it well. Morning nightly\n\nand ever so rightly.\n\nKay (01:48)\nSo\n\nour daddy, Mr. Big, bad boy, Kurt Cobain, boss, Christian Grey, SJ, fuck Mary Hill.\n\nSJ (01:55)\nHmm. Okay. Mary fuck\n\nkill. ⁓ well, I'll do Mary fuck kill. Mary. That's an easy one for me. Kurt Cobain. And I wouldn't have guessed myself picking the bad boy in this situation. And so I actually really appreciate the real life because, know, in our previous conversations about Xaden Riorson, his bad boy vibes were kind of off putting to me. But a real life example of a bad boy, Kurt Cobain, I mean, he was very ahead of his\n\nKay (02:04)\nWhat? ⁓\n\nAnd so I actually really appreciate the real life. This is a very nice conversation about David Wright.\n\nsexy He\n\nwas sexy. was a feminist. He was very pro-Belgian. He was very cultural in that society was kind of stupid. he talking about, well, let's see this grungy rocker. So in that case, actually, the bad boy does appeal to me most.\n\nSJ (02:23)\nHe was sexy. He was ahead of his time in terms of he was a feminist. He was very pro LGBTQ, which was, I think, like, I really agree with his ethics. And he was just sort of like countercultural in that, society is kind of stupid. And he was like, well, fuck that. I'll just be this, like, grungy rocker. So in that case, actually, the bad boy does appeal to me most. I\n\nstill don't think that would get along well, just because I am not.\n\nKay (02:47)\nI don't want to because I'm\n\nnot grumpy at all and not wanting to make a point about being a grumpy person. I also recognize You might not be his type. my type. He's based on beer and his time. So we get a of couple times where we all drink our own Based on history. Yeah, based on his time. What happened? importantly, it's that animal diet one and then how we get-\n\nSJ (02:50)\nDrungy at all. I'm not what was her name Courtney love. We don't have a lot in common. ⁓ I also recognize I also feel like Based on data he'll die young. So we'll get married. We'll have a couple fun years. I'll try heroin ⁓ Based on based on the small but important data set and then he'll die young and then I'll be a\n\nrich widow I guess Mary fuck\n\n⁓ I can't see myself fucking Mr. Big. He doesn't do it for me. think that... Yeah, think... my country's is Christian Gray and I think that Christian Gray is experienced. ⁓\n\nKay (03:20)\nI can't see myself talking this in the day. He doesn't do it for me. I I probably experienced. knows how to mount the mare, prolong the ride. think he's heard this pretty much in brain. This is like a pretty good brain experience. But are you\n\ninto the Dom-Sub relationships? I don't know. I don't I think that's more me.\n\nSJ (03:39)\nAnd no, they don't think that I don't think so.\n\n⁓ But I do remember I did read that book and he lets her set the pace for how fast she explores it. And under the terms of Mary fuck kill, we don't have to fuck more than once if I'm not into it. I think I would try it once and I would use the safe word. And I mean, it would be a good learning experience. And then that leaves me killing Mr. Big, who seems like a total narcissist and\n\nKay (03:45)\nAnd he lets her set the pace for how fast he explores it. And I'm just going to marry and fuck Hill. We don't have to fuck her more than once if we're not into it. So You'll try it once. I'll try it once. And I will use a fake word and I will work to get her planning experience. And then that would be killing Mr. Big. Ooh. I'm a little narcissist. Ooh.\n\nSJ (04:07)\nYeah, I don't know. He does give me the ick. I didn't like him at all, so I'm fine\n\nKay (04:07)\nI know. I know. I know. know. I know.\n\nSJ (04:12)\nwith killing him. I'd be fine with killing Christian Grey too, but ⁓ based on the actor who portrayed him in the movie, I do think that he's hotter. Mr. Big was only hot in an old 90s guy way.\n\nKay (04:14)\nI think he was\n\ndefinitely hot in 2000s K view I remember watching him as a 13 year old and be like why would she ever go with anybody else\n\nSJ (04:32)\nYeah,\n\nbut 13 year old SJ was into Leonardo DiCaprio and 39 year old SJ He has yeah, he has yeah and he but I think that now he also gives me the ick and I would I I mean again I know too much about him and he seems like he still likes to be the daddy in the relationship with his 23 year old age limit or whatever it is so that's a hard no from me now\n\nKay (04:40)\nHe's not an actual daddy, but he is other people's daddy.\n\nSJ (05:01)\nOn Leonardo DiCaprio, 39-year-old SJ knows better.\n\nKay (05:04)\nI would probably fuck Kurt Cobain because he just feels like he has that sexy, knows what he's doing vibe to him. And for our younger listeners, look at a YouTube video of Kurt Cobain singing and it is, ⁓ I'm not even into musicians, but it's there. So.\n\nSJ (05:12)\nhe's not on too much heroin.\n\nOnly because you haven't seen the cello teacher that I was telling you about in previous episodes.\n\nKay (05:26)\nI witnessed.\n\nSJ's thing, not K's thing. So, daddy kings and age gaps. An age gap is defined as 10 years or more and it's most commonly seen with the guy being the old one. And that's what we're gonna go by here. How old of a guy do you think that you would go for, SJ? Unless, say, you're widowed life. I know. I don't wanna wish death upon you.\n\nSJ (05:32)\nBye.\n\nAnd.\n\nis let's say you're without life. Yeah.\n\nKay (05:54)\nyour first stallion, but you know. ⁓\n\nSJ (05:57)\ndoes have a great life insurance policy though. See again, the daddy kink, and maybe it's because I have daddy issues because my dad was kind of a piece of shit. So I feel like I don't have a thing where I'm drawn to daddy figures. I also just feel like this one\n\nKay (06:01)\nBye!\n\nAnd you can see that I have family issues with my dad, kind of a piece of shit, so I'm like, I don't have a thing where I'm to daddy figure. I also just feel like this one\n\ngives me ways of how we're dining in straight couples, I'm gonna say. I think it's very different for gay couples. I think that there's argument that like, you know, how are we dining in, because we can't meet in relationships that then would, man, it's the whole one. I don't see a lot of-\n\nSJ (06:17)\ngives me weird power dynamic vibes in straight couples, I want to say. I think it's very different for gay couples. But I think because there's already that male-female power dynamic that's inherent in relationships that then when the man is the older one, I don't see a lot of\n\nthese in real life that seem like they're really, I the big age gap. I don't know, something like 10 years is not huge, yeah.\n\nKay (06:36)\nThese are the that seem like they're really... I mean, both of the babies got married in like 10 years, so... Yeah,\n\nyou know, we're not talking about the baby jacks or anything, like, I just know... Oh, I just want to say that I just think she's running the show over there. She's running the relationships, and it is like the man becomes like slightly, you know, a little bit evil.\n\nSJ (06:44)\nBut yeah, when we're talking like Bill Belichick kind of things, like I know. Although it does, a lot of people have pointed out, it does kind of seem like she's running the show over there. Like you get to a certain point in those relationships and it is like the man becomes like slightly senile and a little bit feeble.\n\nAnd then like the younger woman does in like, I feel like that's a lot of what people keep pointing out there is that she's kind of like his PR person running the show over there.\n\nKay (07:12)\nSo there is evolutionary basis to this where men are attracted to fertility, which you see in younger people, and women are attracted to men with resources and stability.\n\nSJ (07:14)\nIs that romantic? I don't know.\n\nKay (07:27)\nprobably because for so much of our time on this earth, we have not been allowed to get those resources fully for ourselves. So that's there. That's, again, most commonly seen with guys to women. And this probably won't be too surprising, but studies show that it is more likely to have lower male-female satisfaction and in divorce compared to same-age or same-age inter-paratars.\n\nSJ (07:38)\nThey're most commonly seen with guys to women probably won't be too surprising, but studies show that it is more likely to have a lower amount of cultural satisfaction and divorce compared to same-age marriages.\n\nKay (07:54)\nAnd there's also lower financial\n\nSJ (07:54)\nthere's also a lower...\n\nKay (07:56)\ngrowth in these couples, which we need to look a little bit more into. But there is your kind of background for it.\n\nSJ (08:01)\nWhat's the lower financial growth part mean? Like that\n\nthe woman has less financial upside?\n\nKay (08:07)\nthat\n\nfrom when they get married, when they're studying onwards compared to couples around the same age, that their overall household finances grow at a slower rate. It was not looking just at the woman, it was looking at the household.\n\nSJ (08:17)\n⁓ I mean, I guess that\n\nmakes sense also because the man's probably already at his, especially if you're taking advantage of that like evolutionary trope, then it's like the man is already at the peak of his earning power or past it and has just amassed wealth at that point and isn't trying to earn any more wealth. I think that's why I'm somebody who's very sensitive to power dynamics or perceived power dynamics in relationships. And so, yeah, the idea that ⁓\n\nKay (08:26)\nThey already made their money. Yeah, it's not growing.\n\nSJ (08:45)\nI need the man to provide for me is not a turn on for me.\n\nKay (08:52)\nSo I have a story where I've been tricked twice in my life related to a guy's age once that he was older and once that he was younger. In the case of the guy who pretended like he was older\n\nSJ (09:02)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (09:07)\nHe was actually, in fact, in college. I was about 25 at this time. He lied and had me drop him off at where he eventually had an internship to. And then the next time he confessed his age, I dropped him off at his dormitory the next time. And then once he actually did graduate college, we met up. I always remember him as a sweetheart. And he came on his pants within like two seconds of our hookup.\n\nSJ (09:17)\nCute. Did he ask you to buy him an alcohol too?\n\nNo.\n\nand he came in his pants.\n\nKay (09:36)\nAnd I thought that was a good argument. It was not his first time, but he's still just inexperienced. just going to great historical couples, there is the story of the prince, true story, Prince of Wales and Joanna, who was the bastard daughter of King John of England. You weren't expecting this, are you? ⁓\n\nSJ (09:37)\nMaybe was his first time. What era are we talking about here? I know, like is this like\n\n19th? Okay, sorry.\n\nKay (10:03)\ngetting there. So\n\nLlewellyn was much, much older than Joanna. This is like hundreds and hundreds of years ago, but it is documented and it is a true thing. And Llewellyn was much, much older. And in the book written by Sharon Penman, he says, you know, older men know how to mount the mare, prolong the ride, that they might be better lovers. And there are signs that they actually genuinely loved each other. So do you think that\n\nSJ (10:10)\nOkay.\n\nthat they are along the lines that they might be more lovers and there are signs that they actually generally love each other. So you think that\n\nKay (10:29)\nYoung equals less experience and older equals better able to make a woman orgasm and understand all these things. And that that is the reason why you might go for older, even not\n\nSJ (10:29)\nyoung equals less experience and older equals better, able to make a woman orgasm and understand all these things and that that is the reason why you might hope for older, even not.\n\nKay (10:42)\ntaking the resources into account.\n\nSJ (10:43)\nSo Kay,\n\nthis is where I get back to your very critical thought provoking philosophical question. Are we talking marry fuck or we'll do the marry date or fuck here because obviously we're not talking about killing anybody. because I feel for marriage, like a lot of these, especially with the older men and the younger women, they end in marriage because especially a lot of what's actually at play here is the wealth. In a lot of these cases, is older, the older rich guy marries like a younger woman.\n\nKay (10:49)\nAre we not?\n\nlot of the practice right here is, well, in lot of these cases, it is older, but older, shorter, more woman.\n\nSJ (11:09)\n⁓ And so but then it's not really about the sex and I feel like you're gonna eventually end up in the kind of scenario where like Bill Belichick for example, he can't be good in bed\n\nKay (11:10)\nSo it's not really on the track. I feel like we're going eventually find out what kind of systems we're building. I like we're going to be working very hard.\n\nSJ (11:20)\nnow or like ⁓ the one of my You watch you watch a one minute video clip of him Okay, and you tell me if you think that he is good in bed. But another example is I had my one of my\n\nKay (11:22)\nHe might be a daddy in bed, who knows? He might be like, come here good girl. don't I don't know what to tell my dad. Big belly full\n\nof white hair.\n\nSJ (11:37)\n⁓ One of my celebrity sightings was Mick\n\nJagger. We were eating at the same hotel in Costa Rica and my husband recognized him and I was like, Mick Jagger had his back to us, but his wife was facing us and my husband was like, that's Mick Jagger. They were sitting far enough away that they couldn't hear our conversation. Although at some point we got weird enough that I'm sure that we made the group of us made them uncomfortable. So we were\n\nKay (11:47)\nI was like, oh, he's get a giant hold back from us. But his wife was speaking to us. And we were like, oh, that's a giant. And then we were so far away from him because we were in a all the way through. We thought we were gonna get a bunch of writers that we made for the group of posts. He felt uncomfortable. so we\n\nwe looked her up. We were like, oh, yeah, definitely a giant. His wife is also kind of a white person. I want to see dinner. 20 years? And he tried to get\n\nSJ (12:03)\nWe looked her up and we were like, yeah, that's definitely Mick Jagger's wife, but also has like a wife who's, I want to say she's in her twenties. and Mick Jagger is Mick\n\nJagger and they have a kid together. He's sexy, but I'm like, he can't, I don't know, like at a certain age, the, whole increased experience thing, you kind of start to lose your edge at a certain age. And I don't know for, that varies by man. I don't know if that's 70, 80.\n\nKay (12:12)\nHe's sexy. to get a chance to be with that team. But I'm he can't, I don't know, with certain age, the increased experience what you're trying to do is you're actually trying to I don't even know if a pro player or something, I don't know if that's 78,\n\n90, don't if you're a pro player or something. Of you're a pro So if you're talking about my experience here, then I don't think that the increased sexual experience thing is your thing.\n\nSJ (12:28)\nI don't know if Mick Jagger is going to live to 90. I'm just saying you start to lose the edge. So if you're talking about marriage here, then I don't think that the increased sexual experience thing is going to benefit you\n\nin the long run because eventually you're just going to hit the whole like, I don't want to say erectile dysfunction, but mostly the dementia. The erectile dysfunction less of a thing and thanks to the pharmaceutical industry. But if you're just talking about like, you know, if you're in the fuck category or hate,\n\nKay (12:56)\nI think they have more experience\n\nand I think that if I could go back to my 20s of when I was dating before I met my partner who is around the same age as me I probably would have\n\nSJ (12:58)\nthen yes.\n\nKay (13:07)\nIncrease the age range on my dating profiles on got a little bit older because I do think that older guys have more experience I think that if something were to happen to me My husband for his next partner would go into it like I have a wealth of experience I have over a decade of open communication where I got to learn what a girl really wanted Whereas guys in their 20s are also learning with girls in their 20s who don't yeah, you know\n\nSJ (13:07)\nincrease the age.\n\nthink that if.\n\nMm-hmm. Mm-hmm.\n\nYeah, yeah,\n\nthat's why I think that like a slight age especially because it seems like in a lot of things it depends what decade you are in your life when you're asking this question Because I think if you're a woman in your 20s, it would be very reasonable to focus more on men in their 30s Because they all have more sexual experience They'll have gotten over just a lot of the men in their 20s are really still figuring a lot of shit out I mean, so are men in their 30s through there a little bit further along Versus it, know, it's like I guess the dependent\n\nKay (13:38)\nIs it worth what?\n\nthey will have different experiences. I've gotten into a lot of people, but then in their 20s, they were really still figuring a lot of things out. think so are men in their 30s, but they're a little bit more like a first, I guess the kind of\n\nthings for me are what type of person you were in, how long would you be spending yourself with this person, and just for better attack. Two nights. Just kidding. Yeah, I'm not saying you can keep up with it.\n\nSJ (13:59)\nthings for me are what decade are you in? How long would you be committing yourself to this person just for better sex? see, that's what saying. This is why Mary Fuck Girl is an important question. Yeah, in that case, then I would say whoever.\n\nI think that it's more valuable if you're a woman in your 20s than if you're a woman in your 40s, because the other men in their 40s have probably figured their shit out by then. And I don't think you'd get a lot of\n\nKay (14:17)\nis more valuable if you're in your 20s than if you're in your 40s because the other men in their 40s probably figure their fit out by then and they don't get a lot\n\nof benefit by being a woman in their 40s looking for men in their 60s, for example. No, and you can think of, you know, a sad example of this in today's time is Bruce Willis has a younger wife and they have two kids in their early teens.\n\nSJ (14:28)\nbenefit by being a woman in your 40s looking for men in their 60s, for example, then yeah, you're\n\ngetting dad bods instead of zaddy bods.\n\nKay (14:46)\nAnd he has dementia and front temporal dementia and not to get into it, but that is a really, really tough type of dementia that can be dangerous on the house. And so she made the decision to move him into a different house. And people were criticizing this. And she's like, I have kids who are entering into adolescence that I have to look out for, and I to create a safe environment for them. So those are kind of decisions that come up with an age gap that could come up even without an age gap, but it is a little bit\n\nSJ (15:06)\nYeah.\n\nKay (15:15)\nMore likely. Movie with Anne Hathaway that came out where the she was the older woman and a 25 year old or so star. And I can tell you that that just would not be my thing.\n\nSJ (15:16)\nYeah, yeah. And I think we should talk about the flip side, which is ⁓ the, you know, Ashton Kutcher, Demi Moore, you know, the women with the older, the older women with the younger men.\n\nYeah, mean, I guess that I could see the benefit for the man. feel like there was, I remember, I because this is the one from our generation there, I feel like there's always examples in every generation, but that Ashton Kutcher was yeah, you should be with a mature woman. And so I liked the branding behind that, right? Because I feel like there's that Amy Schumer sketch of like the last fuckable day where they determined that.\n\nKay (15:44)\nI feel like there was, I remember, and this is the one from our generation, there are definitely good voice examples in every generation, but right, my sister was yeah, we should do it, and we're sure of it. And so I like, at least there's a brand behind that, right? Because I feel like there's that, you know, there's that, you know, the tumors, as like the last fuckable day, where you would be determined that\n\nSJ (16:04)\nWomen just have some day at which society deems that they're unfuckable. And then you just like stop. Yeah, there's like a whole thing where I was like Julia Louis Dreyfus\n\nKay (16:04)\nwomen just have one day at which society gives that they're un-fuckable. I feel like I've reached that point. yeah, there's like a whole thing where there's just like, do it, do it right.\n\nSJ (16:13)\nis they're celebrating. It's her last fuckable day. So I like anything that kind of changes up the narrative about women kind of hitting. Yeah, I think about 40 is what we've decided is this culture. Maybe a little bit longer than that if you're a celebrity who's getting a lot of stuff done and trying to perpetuate your youth. But for normal people, probably.\n\nKay (16:14)\ncelebrating this for the last couple days. So I think that kind chains up the narrative about women kind of thing. Yeah, I think about 40 is what we've decided as a culture. Maybe a little bit longer than that, if you're a celebrity who's getting a lot of stuff done and trying to perpetuate your roots, but to normal people probably.\n\nSJ (16:32)\nThat's about it. And so I like anything where it's portraying women over 40 as objects of sexual desire,\n\nKay (16:32)\nThat's about it. And dry lightning thing, where it's portraying women over 40 as objects of sexual desire.\n\nespecially for someone younger like actually who might have been with pretty much everybody.\n\nSJ (16:41)\nespecially for somebody younger like Ashton Kutcher, who could have been with pretty much anybody.\n\nKay (16:46)\nWell, people would definitely be missing out if they thought that my last fuckable days were behind me because I'm still highly fuckable. So I have that confidence. I'm better than ever.\n\nSJ (16:54)\nYes, yes, you are. You\n\nare highly fuckable, okay? And I feel like, if you ask me my question now, if I were suddenly in an alternate universe where I'm single right now, I don't think that I would be looking for a man much younger than me, especially because like I have kids. So it's similar to Bruce Willis's wife on the other side. I don't need more children to take care of. So I'm not looking to have any kind of relationship with a man child. I would be interested, I guess, a little bit in... ⁓\n\nKay (17:05)\nI don't think that I would be looking for a man with cup of champagne in there, so if you could like, I have kids, so similar to Bruce's wife on the other side, I don't need more children to take care of. So I'm not looking to have any kind of relationship with a man-child. I would be interested, guess, a little bit in\n\nSJ (17:21)\nexperimenting, but I think if I were like in my 60s or something and single then like sure that seems kind of fun.\n\nKay (17:22)\nexperiments, but I think if I were like in my 60s or something, I'd single, then like, sure, that seems kind of fun. Nice, yeah, I can see that. So.\n\nGoing on, speaking of younger guys, since you picked Kurt Cobain, who passed away and left us when he was pretty young, moving on to the bad boy trope. And it's one of the most persistent and psychologically complex archetypes in literature and media. Dating culture involves attraction to guys who are rebellious, emotionally unavailable, rule breaking, or morally ambiguous, or as we like to say, romantic, morally gray.\n\nSJ (17:37)\nHehehe.\n\nKay (17:59)\nand all the guys have to be morally gray to be hot. That's just there. Deeply entangled with danger, dominance, and emotional rescue, what are your thoughts on the bad boy?\n\nSJ (18:08)\nAgain,\n\nliked your your setup question for this episode because I really didn't think of myself as somebody who's into the bad boys But then with your example of Kurt Cobain Yeah, exactly So I'm gonna say that this one really comes down to the quality of the writing because a lot of times in the setups for books if he has a good reason to be a bad boy like I feel like a lot of the well\n\nKay (18:17)\nAll the bad boys are duplexed.\n\nall of you.\n\nHe can't be\n\none dimensional bad boy. Yeah, I a hot solo fan in Star Wars and I know for people who are about...\n\nSJ (18:32)\nYeah, or that he's just like, ⁓ yeah, like a character in a Broadway musical, you know, where he's just like, I wear a leather jacket and I'm a bad boy. I think that he has to have something if he's rebelling against something. Like I was a big hot solo fan in Star Wars and I guess like he's kind of a bad\n\nboy.\n\nKay (18:50)\nThat's so funny\n\nbecause I was going to put Han Solo as one of your choices and I was like nobody would get that Han Solo is a bad boy. Harrison Ford could also be a daddy so it got too confused. ⁓\n\nSJ (18:57)\nyeah i mean cuz he's a 70s bad boy so i do feel like it did so it had a bit of a corny vibe to it which was probably why\n\nYes, that is true. Harrison Ford at all ages is\n\nmy ideal person. Although yeah, now he is definitely a daddy type if you watch him in shrinking.\n\nKay (19:13)\nis definitely it.\n\nbecause you once again would have picked the bad boy if I put Han Solo there.\n\nSJ (19:20)\nYes, but huge Star Wars nerd, old Star Wars, not any of the new stuff or the new movies. so I think it's like if you have something valid to be rebelling against and also if you demonstrate emotional growth over the course of the storyline, because I think some of the ones that annoy me, they just sort of remain these emotionally stunted man children and that\n\nKay (19:25)\nso I think it's like if you have something valid to be revalid at once, and you demonstrate emotional growth over the course of the storyline. Because I some of the ones that I'm joining, they just sort of remain these emotionally stunted man-children, and that\n\ndoesn't do it for me. But I think I still have to say that I just finished that whole three books or so that I'm out right now.\n\nSJ (19:46)\ndoesn't do it for me. But I think I said with Xayden, I did finish that whole three books or however many are out right now.\n\nAnd he grows on me throughout because he does mature and he kind of gets over some of his like, I don't know, a lot of times it just feels like a fake setup for me in a romance novel of where we have to have some reason where we can't just fuck nonstop from like the moment we lay eyes on each other. So there has to be some constructed reason why they can't just be fucking nonstop. And I feel like with the bad boys, it's usually like,\n\nKay (19:52)\nAnd he crawls on these problems. He doesn't have the charm, right? He kind of gets over it. Like, that is all. I think it feels like a fake set up for me. I it's not a little fun to hear. Well, yes, there's that. From the moment we really eye on each other. So they have to do some constructive reason why they can't just be fucking nonstop. And I feel like it's a bad boy. usually like,\n\noh, I'm no good for you. So he gets over that. And then comes that there's more actual reasons.\n\nSJ (20:15)\nI'm no good for you. So he gets over that and then comes up, there's more actual reasons\n\nwhy they can't be fucking nonstop in those books. Like he is no good for her, for example.\n\nKay (20:21)\nthey can't be fucking nonstop in those books. Like, he is good for her, for example.\n\nSo, you know what's funny is that I read all these books and I'm always like, why does a guy character have to be broody and dark? Why can't he just be happy and good-natured and laugh a lot? And then I was reading a love triangle book where the first guy that you meet is so good-natured, so loyal, so noble, and then the other guy is,\n\ndark smoldering, dark past, all that. And I'm like, my gosh, if you don't choose that other guy, you're an idiot. He's so sexy. Like he says, like, come to daddy with these things at some point. And I'm like, all I want is for the dark guy.\n\nSJ (20:48)\nThank\n\nEvery girl who has lusted after\n\nMr. Darcy, who is a very proper version of it, but even in the world of Jane Austen books, Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcy is the more like smoldery one. And it turns out is the act I think in a lot of these two, he's actually the good guy. And that's probably where like Kurt Cobain actually\n\nKay (21:14)\nI think a lot of you too, he's actually the good guy and that's probably why like her co-pig actually\n\nwas a really great person who had great values because he was just sort of personally tormented by the obedience of the person he hurt the most was himself. And so like if he's in private prejudice, Mr. Darcy, turns out, he's really sort of of cross as an asshole. He's all shadowing in private. Yeah, he's always flowering after.\n\nSJ (21:21)\nwas a really great person who had great values. He was just sort of personally tormented by his own demons, but the person he hurt the most was himself. ⁓ And so in Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcy, turns out, even though he's the one who kind of comes across as an asshole, yeah, he's always at her.\n\nBut he turns out to actually be the good guy who acts with honor and then the guy who comes off as like, everybody loves him and just can't get enough of him. He turns out to be a real piece of shit.\n\nKay (21:53)\nI'm happy that Mr. Darcy got brought into our bad boy conversation I did not see him there and I think that he would fall underneath a shadow daddy because a shadow daddy is someone who is you know a little bit morally gray because of some things they're mysterious they have a dark past but they don't necessarily\n\nSJ (21:58)\nI'm sorry.\n\nKay (22:11)\nneed to have done something bad or be bad. Mr. Darcy did not know. Jane Eyre had no idea that he was... Jane Austin, ⁓ that's embarrassing. It's all right. I'll leave it in there. ⁓ For actual bad boys, there is like a dark triad of traits of narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. And they've been linked to short-term attractiveness. And there's been studies done that while these people with these dark\n\nSJ (22:14)\n⁓ okay, so I did not know about this distinction.\n\nJane Austen. Jane Eyre is another.\n\nKay (22:40)\nscores are perceived as more attractive for flings. They are not who even women will put down their, not even women in a bad way, but they will acknowledge like, yes, I want to be with this guy for a few weekends, but not for a long-term relationship.\n\nSJ (22:49)\nBut at us like, yes, I look to be the...\n\nYeah, so I think if we're talking about the\n\nactual bad boys, yeah, that are the that have these kinds of traits. ⁓ In that case, no. So I now that you explain this to me, I think I am more attracted to the shadow daddies that are just sort of complex and rebellious. Yeah.\n\nKay (22:59)\nHe's not shadow daddy, obviously. He actually wields\n\nshadows, but you do not need to wield shadows to be a shadow daddy. ⁓\n\nSJ (23:13)\nYeah, sometimes she's a little on the nose. ⁓\n\nYeah, so I think that the actual bad boys are just a no for a narcissist, a hard no. in that way, I think Mr. Big is kind of a narcissist. he's...\n\nKay (23:21)\nAnd in that way, I think Mr. is kind of a narcissist, so... You\n\njust don't want to like Mr. Big. I don't. And you didn't even watch all the Sex and the Cities. I did the other one. I really enjoyed it. I loved it. And recording the video...\n\nSJ (23:28)\nI don't know. Well, you can put together a compilation for me of all of his finer points, and I will watch it and record an official apology\n\nif you get me to change my mind.\n\nKay (23:42)\nI still definitely want to fuck her Cobain, but I might marry Mr. Big even though I know that the marriage would likely not be fully happy.\n\nSJ (23:56)\nWell, I think in\n\nany of these cases, you stand to get a lot of money in the divorce. And nothing about the marry one says that you can't divorce them after a set period of time. Yeah, and whatever kind of business Christian Gray does, seems like he probably writes a really good prenup. But even so, you get 5%. That's probably a great deal.\n\nKay (24:00)\nYeah, but not in the divorce. It's not going to happen at once. They say can't divorce it after the Looking after your resources. not going do this. We're just afraid that it's going to probably out the Billionaire, yeah. Yeah, probably not a good idea break it up, but it's so good. Bye-bye.\n\nSome people misattribute arousal, like your heart is racing and there's greater intensity for sexual attraction, which also might be a reason why our naughty guys. ⁓\n\nSJ (24:29)\nAnd I think that there are a lot of women that get attracted to the whole I can fix him vibe\n\nand that one's another one that I'm just I have not I've never been in a relationship of an I can fix him relationship or I see a side of him that nobody else can see But I've never known somebody who's been in one of those relationships where it actually turned out well You can't change people\n\nKay (24:55)\nI'll need to think about this.\n\nfeel like the closest to a bad boy that I ever dated is an interventional radiologist. So still not, it very loyal. Like does not meet your traditional definitions of a bad boy, just smoked a lot of weed and things like that. personally, I still love him. I love him to this day. He was wonderful. I have no interest in leaving my husband for him. But when friends try to be like, oh, remember when you were with that guy, he was the worst. He would just sit there stoned. I was like, hey, lay off.\n\nSJ (25:17)\nsounds like a Shadow Daddy, okay?\n\nKay (25:30)\nmy shadow daddy. He was very good in bed. going on.\n\nSJ (25:36)\nSee, you knew what you were doing.\n\nYou weren't, I don't think, I don't see you as ever being the whole like, he's different for me. I can fix him. Someday he's going to be a great father to my child. I've never seen, I could never see you being that. Yeah. This is, this is again, this is like, you may have sex with whoever you want, as long as they're consenting. I think that's the long-term relationship thing with these kinds of people where it's problematic.\n\nKay (25:42)\nThanks, Sam.\n\nWe used to send like back and forth with each other. Yeah\n\nthat I was just a long-term relationship with these kinds of people where if Yeah, I do.\n\nwhen I officially entered into a relationship with who is now my current husband, I received a Snapchat video that was this guy masturbating with a flower. That's a different story that I had gotten him as a present. And all of a sudden I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I need to let him know. Yes.\n\nSJ (26:18)\nWe flour like baking flour?\n\nOh. Oh, oh.\n\nKay (26:21)\nI didn't get him a mating flower, he just liked plants. I got him a plant. Anyways,\n\nbut then I was like his penis was in it. It's not like a big memory because when you want to see a penis, when you want to see a penis, it's a great sight. But when you don't want to see a penis and you aren't expecting it and you're just going through your snaps in your mid-20s, it is very shocking to see one.\n\nSJ (26:42)\na lady wants an unsolicited dick pic. That is just a real difference. There's just some\n\nKay (26:45)\nCheck in with me first.\n\nAre you in a relationship now? ⁓ okay, you are? Yeah, it was more than a dick-trip. There was motion happening. Yeah, what do you like to do? It was like a two minute dick-trip.\n\nSJ (26:49)\nWould you like a dick pic? Check yes or no. Would you like a dick gif? mean, consent\n\nis a consonant back and forth.\n\nKay (27:03)\nIt's like two months ago, this would have worked great, but now I need to go\n\nconfess it. So it's not, it was an unsolicited video. I probably did watch for 10 seconds longer than I was supposed to. Going into the third type of trope, which is our bosses. And again, we've already seen there's so much overlap, Christian Grey, technically kind of a bad boy, possibly also a daddy. ⁓\n\nSJ (27:10)\nyou\n\nHahaha!\n\nagain.\n\nKay (27:30)\nbosses, what do you think of the boss, secretary, teacher, student, all those type of like, you know, close proximity and power dynamics at play? My favorite type of porn? Yeah. So yeah, I feel like that's because the power thing is a little bit more like, it's just ooh, that's fun.\n\nSJ (27:43)\nYeah, again, great for porn. ⁓ So yes, hot. ⁓ I like the teacher-student one better for some reason. And I feel like that's power thing is a little bit more like, it's just that's naughty\n\ninstead of this person has direct power over you in the same way that a boss does. ⁓\n\nKay (27:59)\nof course, it kind of how you are taking it across. But what if the\n\nteacher is the only one who can write your recommendation letter to the college you really want to go to? Then wouldn't you say they have a lot to say?\n\nSJ (28:09)\nthen you better give him the best\n\nblowjob of his life,\n\nKay (28:13)\nThis used to be\n\nI feel like we've all been with guys who are, you we want things in bed that we don't necessarily want out of our partners in real life. So like, you don't want a partner who's like totally dominant in real life, but in bed sometimes, I've had like different boyfriends at times be I'm like, okay, you're now the teacher and you're in control of my grades and I really need them. ⁓\n\nSJ (28:24)\nYeah.\n\nYeah.\n\nHey, you're teacher and you're so great. I'm used to this. Again, hot for porn, hot for\n\nrole play, into all of those things. Questions about it in real life? Seems like the boss one especially. You're doing yourself a disservice. that to me has, I have questions about the boss too and their moral compass. Because it's much more, I mean, it's\n\nKay (28:42)\nWell, throughout in real seems like the law is more about improving yourself and your service. that to me has diaprised about the laws too and their long-term office. Yes. Because it's much more, I mean,\n\na potential problem for both of you.\n\nSJ (29:00)\npotentially problematic for both of you, but obviously\n\nthe more junior one, especially like men, tend to walk away from those kinds of things okay, and they can usually like make the problem go away. And the woman that reports to them, they tend to walk away with more consequences of those kinds of things. So I just have questions about the man who's doing this. Or it's kind of like if you're that interested in it and you think it would be that great. Yeah, it's the same thing of like people who cheat. I guess I can understand\n\nKay (29:04)\nlike men tend to walk away from those kinds of things okay and then you just like have to come and go away and the woman has a force of makes her walk away with more consequences of those kinds of So I just have questions about the band. Or if you're as black and interested in it and you think it would be bad, Yeah, guess I don't understand\n\nbeing a strap. A lot of people like read things that people write.\n\nSJ (29:26)\nbeing attracted to something. A lot of the people, when you read things that people write\n\nfor advice, they're like, yeah, my marriage was basically over already. It was dead. And then I found this other person who attracted me. But it's like, if your marriage was dead, then end your marriage. And it's kind of the same thing. It's like, if you think that this relationship or this attraction is that important, then you should be willing to step away from.\n\nKay (29:31)\nfor advice, like, oh yeah, my marriage was basically over already, like it was dead, and then there's also a person who attracted me. If your marriage was dead, then end your marriage. It's kind of the same thing if you do think that this relationship or this attraction is that important, then you should be willing to step away from,\n\nSJ (29:53)\nEspecially, know, lot of these are, if it's like a bigger company where you can just be assigned to a different department, it seems easy enough to.\n\nKay (29:53)\nespecially if you know a lot of people are in a bigger home or a different apartment, it's easy enough to...\n\nYeah, it's a part of the sexiness, if you bark away from it, was that the guy was in the position of power that might seem attractive, because that gives like status and they might have a little bit more confidence because of that position. And then you're also really close with them. And so it's increasing the tension. And if once you remove that,\n\nSJ (30:13)\nMm-hmm.\n\nKay (30:18)\nWas that just your thing? There was a study and it shows that this is not surprising, most by the American Psychological Association and it showed that over half of workers disapprove of relationships between supervisors and subordinates. They're perceived as less genuine, more manipulative and opportunistic. So it's overall not a thing, but it's going to keep on happening. Yeah, I guess wrong, but it is sexy.\n\nSJ (30:38)\nYeah, and I have, yeah, a very\n\nlong time ago, like before graduating college. So these weren't like exactly real jobs. I did have a situation where, there was, it was understood that there was somebody who was sleeping with our collective boss. and, or if she wasn't, then they had, she had something on him. I'll just say that they had weird sexual energy between them. And it's very annoying.\n\nKay (30:47)\nThey just have a situation where\n\nSJ (31:06)\nif you are the other person working in this situation, because I was better at my job, but yeah, I mean, yeah, it was like a restaurant. it's not that.\n\nKay (31:13)\nwas getting more things. Yeah.\n\nSJ (31:19)\nBut like she sucked. ⁓ no, thank you. was Chili's. don't want to, I'm allowed to be smirked the name of Chili's on this. Yes. So, and I guess similarly with the teacher student one, I kind of think it depends what grade, what level of school we're talking about here. Because again, I was in like a high school situation with one of the teachers. I mean, and he was young, so wasn't a huge age gap. He was pretty young. I think he was in his early twenties and she was\n\nKay (31:29)\nto your student life.\n\nwhat what school we're talking about here because again, have a high school situation of the teachers. mean, he was young, so it wasn't a huge age gap. He was pretty young, I think he was in his early twenties, and he was\n\nSJ (31:46)\n17. ⁓ But that's just like, nobody thinks that's right in that kind of situation. But like college professors, I don't know, especially you can wait till the end of the semester, they're not technically your professor anymore. Sure.\n\nKay (31:46)\n17. But that's just like, nobody thinks that's right in that kind of situation. But like, college professors? Well, then... Especially, again, wait till the end of the semester, they're not taking you be a professor anymore. Oh, sure.\n\nThe Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood, which was a knockout bestseller is what put Ali Hazelwood on the map, everything. And she is seen as being like a feminist in science and writing books that are very feminist in science. And it is about a grad student and a tenured professor at Stanford falling in love with each other. And I found that really interesting.\n\nSJ (32:07)\nMm-hmm.\n\nAnd it is about a grasp of it and a point.\n\nYeah.\n\nKay (32:23)\nBut the book is so quirky and\n\ncute that you read it and you like it. But the entire time you're like, but there still are power dynamics here. And are we considering them? Yeah. Yeah, and it's just always, not the most, in fact, well, it's the most critical moment in And we've heard this a lot before. But, if you, I mean, especially for grad school situations, and other grads, where, like, you just see grads.\n\nSJ (32:32)\nWell, like is he, well, I'm assuming the professor is the man, right? Yeah, exactly. mean, like, first of all, why don't we have some books? If it's sexy, why don't we have some books where the roles are reversed? I would read those books more. ⁓ But I would say, especially in a grad school situation, I feel like undergrad is more like you just take classes\n\nand you need a decent GPA.\n\nKay (32:51)\nGrad school could\n\nhave a huge effect on your life. ⁓\n\nSJ (32:52)\nBut grad school, your professors could have a huge impact on your life. So to me, that's almost\n\nmore like a boss employee kind of situation. ⁓ And again, a tenured professor has a ton of power if anything were to go wrong. mean, obviously, it's like Ali Hazelwood's book, so it's cute, and they have a nice relationship, I'm sure. But in real life, the guy turned out to be a creep, you don't really have a lot of space to come.\n\nKay (32:58)\nemployee kind of situation. So I think then like a ten year professor has a ton of power if anything were to go wrong. Obviously it's like out of these words books who it's cute and they have a nice relationship I'm sure. But like in real life if the person, if I can talk to you a creep, like you don't really have a lot of space to come,\n\nSJ (33:19)\nThe woman has very little power. The student has very little power in that situation. That was similar to, I just picked up a book in Target once that was called The Au Pair\n\nKay (33:20)\nthe woman has very little power, the student has very little power in that situation. That was similar I just picked up a book in Target once that was called the Okra.\n\n⁓ And someone who has had no pair.\n\nSJ (33:27)\nAffair. Didn't read it. ⁓ for anyone, an au pair. As someone who has had an au pair. First of all, I did read the back of the book. The author of this book is part of the, did zero research because their understanding of an au pair is a hot nanny. ⁓ And actually an au pair is like a department of state.\n\nKay (33:37)\nis part of the, uh, a very important research because there, I understand that road care is a hot issue. Um, and notion that road care is like a department of state\n\nprogram for international exchange. It's like- Like many rules put on the program. For women between 18 and 20, and there are new road carers, I don't know you're an adult, um, but they can possibly be coming to this country at the age of 18 to 25 in the concept of two years, um, in, to watch their children under road care.\n\nSJ (33:47)\nprogram for international exchange. It's like a cultural exchange program where you get for women between 18 and men, there are the bro pairs as I learned that they're called, but that you have somebody coming to this country and they're between the ages of 18 to 25 and they come for up to two years in to watch your children under a very\n\nstrictly regulated program. And so first of all, this book was not about that. It was like even more ridiculous.\n\nKay (34:08)\nAnd then they\n\nwouldn't have the cute name. They wouldn't have O'Paren there.\n\nSJ (34:13)\nWell, exactly. She's just\n\na nanny. She was like a marine biologist. And then she got burnt out in that marine biologist lifestyle. And so she decided to try her hand at being a nanny for a hot single dad. So yeah, she's just a hot nanny. But I was very bothered by the title of the book because I'm like, there is such an inherent power dynamic in having in hosting an au pair at your house to begin with, because these are people who are completely alone. have very little legal protection.\n\nKay (34:23)\nsingle dad. So yeah, it's just a hot day.\n\nThere is such an inherent power dynamic in an au pair at your house to begin with because these are people completely alone and have very little legal protection.\n\nSJ (34:39)\nAnd so I have seen families abuse that privilege in a number of ways, but if you actually had a relationship with your au pair, that would be super fucked up. So it was like, this wasn't even a cute idea for a book and also refused to read it because the author sacrificed any research about what an au pair actually is just to have a cute rhyming title.\n\nKay (34:39)\nAnd so I could have a few sacrifices in a number of cases, but if you actually had a relationship with your au pair, that would be super fucked up. So it was like, this wasn't even a good idea for a book, and also refused to read it because the author sacrificed any research about an au pair actually is just to have a cute, crying cycle.\n\nSJ (34:57)\nSo two thumbs down.\n\nKay (34:57)\nBut yes,\n\nyou did read enough to know that there was a marine biologist. If you get a job as a marine biologist, continue on with it. We're a single dad.\n\nSJ (35:01)\nwhich also everybody who fantasized about being a marine biologist when they were eight, how could you possibly not want to do that amazing job, which I understand to be pursuing Lisa Frank-like dolphins on the ocean?\n\nDon't become a nanny. It's a lot of shit work.\n\nUnless he's really hot.\n\nKay (35:25)\nAnd then you can be, yeah, then you can be your sugar daddy. So I think it's just fun to think about why do these tropes persist? And there is something to us, maybe not Estre, but for Kay, that there is like a thrill in being the chosen one by someone powerful and that there is like a validation in that. Yeah, I see that.\n\nSJ (35:45)\nYeah, I see that.\n\nas we're psychoanalyzing ourselves, I have a deep and intense hatred of authority figures, probably stemming to my own daddy issues. And so I feel like that's probably my issue with a lot of these tropes is anything where you're like, oh, the professor chose me. I'm like, what a weird creep. Why does he not pick somebody his own age? So I guess I would be more turned on.\n\nKay (35:55)\nstarting to find my own dad jokes. And so I feel like that's the kind of thing with lot of these tropes. Anything where you're like, ⁓ I love authority figures. Why is it that the best thing is-\n\nSJ (36:13)\nMaybe by the gender role reversal of those, but also I just like, call me Vanilla. I like love stories about people who have very egalitarian power dynamics. It's not a great book, but.\n\nKay (36:13)\nmaybe find each other over personal zones, but also I just like... In real life, I've never been attracted to boss. I've love stories about people who have very egalitarian power dynamics. I like love stories that are in\n\nfantasy worlds so they could create these bizarre situations and dynamics that if they existed in the real world version would stress me out because I would be like, wait a second.\n\nwhen the person ages, then there's going to be a 20 year age difference and it's going to be complicated. And instead I'm like, they're fairies. Their life is eternal.\n\nSJ (36:38)\nI'm water.\n\nFair enough. And I do enjoy this stuff too and I thank you for\n\nintroducing me to it because I feel like I can definitely suspend my ⁓ disbelief about my deeper questions about how their relationship's actually going to work 15 years from now. I can do that better in a situation where they're fairies because magic, they can just do whatever.\n\nKay (36:52)\ndisbelief.\n\nI can.\n\nThat's what you're saying. Yeah, there\n\ncan be a 300 year age gap like there is in a court of thorns and roses and it's like, well, it's all right because they're not going to age. So it's all good.\n\nSJ (37:12)\nThat one's next on\n\nmy reading list, so I will get back to you about how I feel about that daddy-baby age gap after I've read it. Is this not also what we have in Twilight? I do refuse to read Twilight, unless I'm like super high. No, no, no, but I'm just saying. No, I didn't say, I was sorry. I'm not, sorry fans. I am not comparing it to Twilight. But that's the thing in Twilight, right? Having refused to read it, isn't he like a hundred?\n\nKay (37:18)\nIt's deep. It's deep. And there's also power dynamics. ⁓\n\nIt is so much better than Twilight, don't give it that. There is\n\nSJ (37:41)\n70 years old.\n\nKay (37:42)\na page, oh my gosh, I think he's more than 107. I thought that he was like centuries old. But yes, I read Twilight a long time ago, so I do not remember the exact age gap, but it indeed meets the criteria of being more than 10 years.\n\nSJ (37:46)\nyeah.\n\nYes, okay, hold on. I'm just Googling here. How old are the vampires in Twilight? This is a complicated question. Oh, yeah. Okay, so Edward, was Edward Cullen the main character? Oh my God. Just checking, because there's a whole list of them here. I'm pulling him out of a long list. He was only born in 1901, but Carlisle was born in the 1640s.\n\nKay (38:03)\nThis is a complicated question. Oh my gosh, yes he was. Okay, oh wow, you were pretty great.\n\nSJ (38:23)\nAs may 1890, they kind of range a bit, but it seems like a lot of the Cullens are born in the 19 turn of the turn of that century. And then also, if he remains 23 forever, then I guess eventually they're going to have a Demi Moore Ashton Kutcher situation on their hands. Do they get that far along in the books?\n\nKay (38:23)\nOkay.\n\nYes, so some big ones.\n\nThank\n\nThey did, but they didn't bring me along with them.\n\nSJ (38:46)\nDo we know how old\n\nis Bella, Bell, Bella, by the time that the books end?\n\nKay (38:54)\nWell, so she was in high school and then she had a, stayed with them and then she had a baby, a daughter who Jacob imprinted on. So let's say that she's oldest, early twenties.\n\nSJ (38:57)\nStay with\n\n⁓ okay. So they don't really get\n\ninto the Demi Moore Ashton Kutcher situation that she's eventually going to have or like Ben, well, it's like Benjamin Button kind of. They'll meet in the middle.\n\nKay (39:10)\nshe must be a really good\n\nYou know, it's funny, now that\n\nI think about it, I do definitely also watch videos. These are all situations that I would never do in real life. I used to babysit all the time. I've never been attracted to a dad who I babysit for. I can guarantee you that nobody who babysits at my house is attracted to my husband. No one fights with my husband.\n\nSJ (39:25)\nI use the WC all the time.\n\nI can guarantee you that you're not even a baby in my house. Well, exactly. Like, dads in real life, like, think of all the dads that you\n\nbabysat for. Yeah, but like dads in real life and, you know, versus like how you can write them for romance or porn or whatever. And then you can also make the power dynamic be anything you want. you can make the professor just not be a piece of shit. ⁓\n\nKay (39:49)\nLike you can make a professor, a professor just not be here.\n\nYeah. And always be like, I'm looking out for your best interests and all that. Yeah. Like, yeah.\n\nSJ (39:57)\nYeah, yeah, like there is, yeah,\n\nlike I saw porn as like a professor one and obviously like he definitely had her best interests at heart. Amazing. ⁓\n\nKay (40:03)\nlaughter ⁓\n\nI feel like those aren't the ones that I watch. ⁓ So thank\n\nyou for discussing this with me today. I also just want to put out there that for everybody who watched Mr. Big and their teens and thought that he was attractive or maybe thought that George Clooney was attractive with his white hair, that we need to stop being scared of the word kink because you have a daddy kink. ⁓\n\nSJ (40:32)\nYeah. Yeah.\n\nKay (40:36)\nIt's for us to embrace our inner kings. That's also part of the show, that orgasm\n\ngap.\n\nKay (40:42)\nTo end the episode, we're going to touch on Gilmore Girls, who represent a lot of the tropes that we discussed today. So, Jesse, Logan, or Dean? Mary fuck kill.\n\nSJ (40:50)\nSo, dressing Logan or Dean? soft\n\nSo, actually feel like maybe this is like, so Jesse Logan and Dean, Jesse is definitely the bad boy. Although now with new vocabulary I've learned I would say he's more of the shadow daddy because again, he's a rebel. He has the best heart out of all of them.\n\nKay (40:56)\nThis is like, so Jesse.\n\nword for bad boy. feel like bad boy is, you know, 20 years ago when we didn't recognize that people were nuanced and all that. Yes.\n\nSJ (41:13)\nAgain, it sounds cheesy, like the Jets and the Sharks.\n\nOK, so Jesse's our shadow daddy. I guess Logan is more of the boss figure or also the rich douchebag, which we kind of touched on a lot. But he's got Christian Grey vibes. Yeah, we can kind of put him into a boss category. And then the thing is, Dean is.\n\nKay (41:25)\nthe rich douchebag, which we kind of touched on a lot. We've got two, we've got two temporary vibes. Okay, we'll put him to boss. Yeah, we'll put him into boss category. The thing is, meme is\n\nkind of my favorite book, but we didn't really put into this trope yet. It was like the good guy. I could have gone into the good guy, and I didn't, but that's alright. The good guy can still be included on the Mary Fuck Well.\n\nSJ (41:40)\nneither of those but we didn't really get into this trope yet but he's like the good guy hometown boy\n\nYeah, yeah. And I think that we\n\nshould have a whole episode about that. I think if we wanted daddy vibes, we'd have to go with somebody that Lorelai dates, but that would complicate things. And then I think that we should have a whole future episode about good guys, because there's a whole bunch of stuff that you could get into about the good guys narrative. And Dean is a very good example of it, because Dean kind of turns out to be a piece of shit, even though he's like this little homegrown guy next door kind of vibes.\n\nKay (42:13)\nSo, let's\n\nsee, I would...\n\nSJ (42:14)\nSo let's see, I would... ⁓\n\nI would... I'm trying to find you to... I know, I don't... I guess I would...\n\nKay (42:22)\nThis is harder. Kurt Cobain isn't on the list. ⁓\n\nWould you fuck, Jessie?\n\nSJ (42:29)\nI guess no, I mean I think I would have to marry Jesse because he's really the most decent out of all of them. He has a little bit of emo kid energy, but so did I in that era. So I think I would marry Jesse. I would fuck Dean. No, he seems like he'd be very missionary. I would fuck Logan. And then if there was a choice to kill him afterwards. Yes.\n\nKay (42:33)\nThanks\n\nHe has a little bit of a moat in him, which you put somebody on and let him So if you want to hear it,\n\nThe name Dean definitely lends itself to missionary.\n\nSJ (42:55)\nYour homework K is going to be go watch a bunch of Gilmore girls. It is Gilmore girls season So there is no time like the present to go binge watch Preferably with your mom while eating a lot of snacks And so I guess that that leaves me killing Dean and fucking Logan Yeah, fine with killing Dean\n\nKay (43:11)\nSo you\n\njust want to do everything with dressy then?\n\nSJ (43:15)\nNo, I'm marrying\n\nJesse. I'm killing Dean and I'm Logan. I'm sure he's good in bed. He has more experience than any of them because he's been around. I think that, yeah, yeah. And he's got like, he went to prep school and stuff. Like, I feel like he kind of learned all of the key stuff and ⁓ he's probably into some weird stuff. So yeah, that'd be fun.\n\nKay (43:19)\nYeah, but I feel like we didn't really want Logan for anything.\n\nClose as good, Addy.\n\nOkay. being\n\nvery familiar with Gilmore Girls, I respect these decisions. So join us for future episodes where we discuss good guys. We... Yes. And I would always marry them and then go somewhere else to fuck. But anyways. Have a great day and thanks for watching.\n\nSJ (43:41)\nI'm\n\nAnd which one we'd marry, fuck or kill?","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":10,"createdAt":"2025-09-23T14:22:13.592Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:11:13.440Z"},{"id":9,"title":"Love Languages: Do laundry, get laid?","slug":"love-languages","description":"Welcome to the hot mess that is SJ and Kay's discussion of Gary Chapman’s five love languages. We roast the actual book’s caveman-era beliefs (women don't like sex? have you met our co-host Kay?), cackle over bros claiming blowjobs as their love language, and love on a tango-dancing grandpa. Kay’s got heart-eyes for an adult film star’s boomerang peeny, while SJ’s baffled by studies about strangers touching wrists (who funds this?). With shoutouts to Sabrina Carpenter’s “I run this” album cover energy and tips for dodging father-in-law carpool awkwardness (...unless you have a daddy kink, then carry on), this episode is a rollercoaster of snark and heart. Whether you’re into gifts, cuddles, or...down-there time, this episode’s got you covered with laughs and real talk about love’s weird, wonderful ways.","spotifyEmbedId":"0lvO3uZkMllS01QLT3RwEX","releaseDate":"September 16, 2025","duration":"43 minutes","topics":["sex","marriage","communication"],"transcript":"Hey, welcome to the Good Girls podcast, and today we're talking about love.\nLanguages.\nUsual disclaimer, if you are driving with your father-in-law, you might want to turn it off because even those love languages and that sounds soft, we might accidentally say some things that you're uncomfortable hearing.\n0:33\nSome people's love language is a deep digging.\nAnd if you have a daddy kink and you're driving with your father-in-law to fulfill your daddy kink, then you know what?\nContinue listening.\nMaybe you'll learn.\nWait.\nI'm sorry, good girls.\n0:49\nCan I just take a quick deviation here that if you are wondering why Kay always begins the podcast by warning you about your father-in-law being in the car.\nNot that she has a kink for her actual father-in-law, but she does have a.\n1:04\nReal life daddy kink.\nFigurative father-in-law kink because because this is the kind of relationship we have.\nShe sent me one of her favorite pornos and it is a daddy in law, a kind of situation where she cheated.\nYou've ever seen Stephen St.\nQua, a male porn star and his little boomerang Penny.\n1:23\nThen you understand that it's not really a father-in-law thing, it's something about.\nStephen St.\nYeah, he's just the way.\nThat he runs the Yeah, he runs a room.\nHe's got little man boobies.\nHe's great.\nOK, you and you hyped up the Man movies.\nI was picturing somebody with a way more doughy physique.\n1:40\nI mean his is a is a highly curved penis, but other than that I think he's very attractive for his age.\nHe's got the nice like gruff, like I'm in charge here and I'm going to show you what you're worth.\nAnyway, so that if that hasn't significant, if that has not scared off everybody who was listening to this with you, let's jump in and talk about love languages.\n2:02\nWoo Hoo.\nSo want to start off before we get heavily into love languages with this amazing study by Heyman and colleagues.\nPublished in 2010, journal Family Psychology looked at 453 couples with a child aged 3 to 7 and surveyed them on the areas of desired change in their partners.\n2:22\nAnd they found women, compared with men, wanted greater increases in their partners, emotional and compassionate behaviors and, no surprise, instrumental support.\nSo support around the household and parenting involvement.\nAnd men wanted more sex, more sex.\n2:40\nThey wanted more attention to their sexual needs.\nThey wanted more sexual relationships.\nYou know, men, I just have a little cheat code here.\nMaybe if you help the woman with those other things, then they would want more sex with you.\nYeah.\nThis really so our favorite place to do research besides scholarly articles is Reddit.\n3:01\nAnd so I was skimming through kind of people who had previously posted the question of what is your love language and just the number of men who answered it.\nBlowjobs.\nYeah.\nAnd yeah, you're wondering why your wife doesn't give you more blowjobs, man.\n3:17\nHere is a reason why.\nSo SJ lead us into what are the five love languages?\nAll right, Well, actually I would like to start with a little bit of background about the book.\nThis is an interesting one because I think that this has become such a pop culture phenomenon and the number of people who talk about love languages, especially just like how much it's become a meme now, right?\n3:42\nLike people are like, my love language is bagels, my love language is cat pictures.\nVersus the number of people who have read this book.\nIn this case, I would actually say that that's probably a good thing.\nThe book is utter trash.\nAnd I don't know.\n3:57\nOK, Have you?\nWhat is your experience with the love languages beyond Internet memes?\nSo I don't want to put up this episode because I still think it's very, very worthwhile discussing and it provides a nice framework to think about things.\nBut I think that the science of the love languages and the idea that you only have one love language and then you need to make sure your partner matches up with you is da da, da, da trash.\n4:22\nAnd that's partially because Gary does trash, trash.\nHe is a PhD of adult education.\nSo he does.\nFrom like a seminary, and this is somebody with a seminary degree like I do not, that does not make me qualified to be a couples counselor.\n4:39\nI think that the love languages are still highly useful to explore because they kind of provide a framework for talking about things that you're feeling or lacking with your partner and all these different.\nSo I want to say that they're trash, but I also want to say that I'm excited to talk about them.\n4:54\nYou and I feel exactly the same way.\nSo we can eliminate the debate portion of our of our agenda for today.\nI feel very much the same way.\nI think that it sparks a helpful conversation.\nWe've even had this conversation in my own marriage.\nI don't think that we have to be limited to Gary Chapman's 5 languages which we will get into are very arbitrary and also somewhat overlapping.\n5:19\nAnd also, yeah, if your if your knowledge of it came from the book and not just random one line Internet posts, first of all, you wasted a lot of time because you can learn basically all the concepts you need to.\nAnd I would say like half a podcast.\nSo we'll spend less than half of the podcast today talking about what they're actually about and then spend the rest of the podcast either trashing the book or talking about how we apply this in our own lives.\n5:45\nThe basic take away is to just communicate and pay attention to the way that other people receive love.\nAnd I think that that's one helpful take away from the book is that the book is really about paying attention to what your partner's love language is.\n6:01\nWhere is like the Internet mimification version is people saying like my love language is like you bringing me breakfast and things like that.\nSo yeah, the original book.\nSo there's two versions of the book.\nThere's the original published in 1992, and that was when Jerry, Jerry Gary Chapman was Gerber was talking to a largely Christian audience.\n6:26\nThis is this really resonates with the podcast because this is a great like Christian communications thing.\nLike, if you grew up in the Christian world, this is probably the sort of thing that your parents were reading.\nAnd I think people get it in pre Cana, that's where they hear about the.\nLaw.\nYeah, yeah, that's, I think it's a popular one to hand out for that, which I will remind you is just like I was saying, like seminary does not qualify you to be a couples counselor.\n6:50\nAt best in the Protestant world, you are getting marriage counseling from a vaguely non certified layperson in the context of psychology.\nIn the Catholic version, you are getting marital advice from a celibate person, right?\n7:08\nYes, who also is likely biased towards whichever person's family is belonging to that church.\nAnd so they're like, you are so lucky to marry Adam.\nYou know, Adam is a member of all that.\nSo I'm gonna ask you all these questions and then meanwhile, Adam's over there and doesn't get any questions.\n7:27\nI'm not speaking for any personal stories, obviously.\nObviously.\nSo, yeah.\nSo he originally publishes for this very like norm core trad core kind of audience.\nAnd then it's republished in 2014 and that's the version probably most people know and have seen.\n7:44\nBut it is still he is just largely talking to hetero trad couples.\nThere's basically no mention of non hetero couples seems like from other things that he's written.\nAnd believe me, he had opportunities because this is a whole like he just got on the love languages gravy train with this book.\n8:03\nThere is love languages for children, for teenagers, for parents, for parents of kids with disabilities, love languages for men, not love languages for women, which we'll get into that just like everything under the sun.\nSo if he wanted to speak to like how it would be maybe adjusted for LGBT couples, he could have, but he's kind of more in the like, don't ask, don't tell.\n8:27\nBut basically this original version, I think that they had him like clean up a little bit of his like gender norm language and in.\nYeah, exactly.\nSo we have like these like checklist kind of things of like how to do the different love languages.\n8:45\nAnd it would be very like men, if your love, like if your wife's love language is acts of service, then you can like help her with the laundry.\nAnd then women, it's like if your man likes acts of service, you can do his laundry, things like that.\n9:01\nAnd also I will say, Kay, you would be very disappointed.\nThis book was first certified good girls trademark only the wifeys do not care for sex.\nAnd so really this whole book came off to me as like a manual for dumb fucking husbands who like, can't figure out for shit why they're wisely basically what you were saying in the beginning.\n9:22\nWhy doesn't my wife want to have sex with me?\nI don't do any housework and I don't help with my kids and and all that and that is not my there's like a.\nStory in there that's like he has all these like advice columns which I think that he like writes it seems like he writes them himself.\nThey're not like actual letters to him of like a guy that like went and played softball while his wife was having a baby.\n9:42\nAnd then he's like, why is my wife so Moby all the time?\nSo really, I think that his core audience and why there's a love languages for men book but not a love languages for women book is certainly.\nWe're starting from the bottom.\n9:58\nWe are like.\nThe women are so socialized to just be attuned to this shit already that we didn't really need a book doing it.\nBut I think that he assumes that like all of the dumb husbands out there are like husbands.\nIf your wife does not think that like a deep digging is her love language, then buy her some.\n10:16\nFlowers, Is it not your love language?\nSo gender normative that he does not allow for the possibility that maybe a deep digging is your wife's love language.\nSo there's very like with the physical touch one, it's very masculine gendered.\nAnd the examples of women who go for the physical touch is like she maybe she wants to cuddle.\n10:36\nAnd yeah, on the other side it's like maybe your wife should blow you.\nBut he doesn't say that because he's Christian.\nSo just like a funny kind of side note is that I was looking into the physical touch element, which obviously there's a lot of research to support that physical touch is a great love language, for lack of a better word, but just a way to increase a feeling between you and your partner.\n10:59\nOxytocin.\nYeah, yeah, it lowers.\nYour heart rate, your blood pressure, like when you touch your partner, your eyes are on the same wavelength.\nBut a funny thing is that I saw Masters and Johnson, pioneers of the modern sex therapy movement, used to encourage their couples to do non sexual touches more often and that would lead them to be more sexually interested.\n11:20\nAnd I was like Masters and Johnson somewhat rings the bell, but I can't really think of it.\nBut if they're leaders of the modern sex therapy movement, obviously I want to look into them.\nAnd it turns out, and you probably already know this from your page, they're like the conversion therapy people they're.\nLike friendly?\n11:37\nPeople who are gay and I can just have them touch their their the other sex and then they're going to be changed.\nAnd we already know because we are stuck in our straight relationships, that is not possible.\nAgain, if I could be with a woman, I would.\nThat sounds delightful to me.\n11:52\nYeah, disappointing.\nYes.\nOK.\nSo the five level languages.\nSo with that disclaimer, we will get.\nJason Johnson had to make an appearance.\nYeah, yeah.\nWith that disclaimer, we will get into naming what they are just because I feel like it's helpful to hear.\n12:12\nAnd yeah, as you hear them, you might be like, isn't this one kind of similar to the other one?\nAnd the answer?\nIs don't ask questions, Yeah, first.\nOf all, don't ask questions.\nGerber has made millions, if not more, off of the judge.\nIt's based up of how much money Gary has made.\n12:28\nYeah, exactly.\nThat's how we are in the year of our Lord 2025.\nThis is how all things are judged is would Elon Musk want to invest in it?\nGreat.\nSo, Kay, you were going to jump in with some examples of where each of these love languages.\nSo there's words of affirmation, acts of service, gifts, quality time, and physical touch.\n12:48\nNow we're going to go back and start off with examples, words of affirmation.\nSJ, you look great today in your overalls.\nHave I told you that?\nAnd you are such a good Co host.\nThat is an example of awards of affirmation.\nAnd there's studies showing that in case you don't have a partner, you can also just tell these to yourself.\n13:06\nAnd as long as it's coming from somewhere and you feel like you believe it, it really does help yourself esteem your confidence, all those things.\nYeah, I look at my partner.\nI try to tell him you are a good man, be a good boy, yeah.\nGo touch me.\n13:22\nYou're a.\nVery, very good boy and.\nThen you walk him like a dog, like.\nSabrina Carpenter Yeah.\nI pet his head a little bit, and that's when I get into my physical touch.\nAlso, just a quick side note that I actually love that Sabrina Carpenter picture of her with a guy because you know what she said about it?\n13:40\nShe said that the important thing about the picture, and for those of you who haven't seen it, it's her album cover.\nAnd the guy is standing up and she's kind of looking like she might go down on him and he's tugging her hair.\nIs that she's like, I am very clearly.\nAnd there's no doubt of anybody looking in that that picture that I am in control of the situation and I'm enjoying it.\n14:00\nI'm like, Sabrina, Yeah, acts of service, who?\nThis is just where guys seem to get in trouble because.\nAnd I feel like an act of service doesn't even have to be there if they're just happening, right?\nI don't know.\nYeah.\nAnd I feel like so a lot of times when people think of examples of this, I'm also like doing the bare minimum is not acts of service like just participating in the household because.\n14:24\nI put the shoes on my daughter this morning.\nWas that an active service?\nYeah, exactly.\nAnd this kind of feels like.\nSo we recently for one of my kids introduced the concept of allowance and, and that quickly turned into and we tried to just have it be like a general like this is something that you get at a certain age so you can have spending money of your own.\n14:43\nAnd in order to and part of this is that we have this social contract that you will be participating as a member of this household and doing certain chores that's.\nWhat you said here.\nI did.\nWe talked about social contracts, but then she like pretty much immediately wanted to turn it into like, I just picked up the wrapper, my cheese stick and put it in the trash.\n15:06\nPay me $1.00, please.\nAnd that's kind of what this sounds like for men that then they'll like get this and they're like, oh, like acts of service.\nLike I'm going to put my plate in the dishwasher.\nWhere's my blowjob?\nDeep Throat me now, please.\nBut but greater perceived sharing of household tasks is associated with higher relationship satisfaction and increased liking of 1's partner.\n15:28\nDid we even need studies?\nApparently?\nWe did though, just the same as we needed this dumb fucking book for some people just.\nDo things and then you might get more sex.\nYou know, if you take the load off your wife and so she's not super, super tired, she might be more interested in getting right down there.\n15:44\nWho knows?\nOr not, because it might just not be your thing or maybe you don't clean enough.\nI don't know.\nYeah, there may be so many other reasons which we'll get into on other episodes as well, yes.\nAnd then gifts, you know, not just for birthdays, you can gift somebody a lot of different things.\n16:00\nYou can go to a gas station and come out with a Gatorade that might lead you to a road blowjob.\nJust think about it right flavor of Gatorade.\nWell, I think when that first of all, I feel like as much as if we want to adhere to the five love languages, I feel like gifts gets the like worst cuz it is just like, oh, you're like this materialistic person who like requires their partner to buy them designer handbags and diamonds or something.\n16:26\nBut I think it really is more supposed to be kind of about like the, Oh, I was thinking of you and I, I also feel like this is a hard one to do if it doesn't come to you naturally like some of the other ones.\nIt's like words of affirmation.\nLike you can just like kind of practice it till you get good at it.\n16:42\nBut when you know the people in your life, and I'm not just talking relation like romantic relationships, the people who are really thoughtful gift givers, it's always just like a very like that is impressive.\nThey just like pick up little things, whether it's for birthdays or non particular occasions that it's just like this like, oh, I was thinking of you.\n17:01\nI saw this.\nI thought you would want it like something small.\nI type Divora just get stuck in my head.\nI'm like, I think that person would like that, but maybe they don't.\nMaybe they would have already bought it for themselves.\nMaybe.\nAnd then I did tell them and all of my like difficult relationship with stuff because then I'm like, well, if they don't want this, then it's just like one more thing for them to have to like figure out and get rid of.\n17:22\nAnd I do really feel like that, like with the gift giving language, like when it is just this obligatory thing, especially around birthdays.\nAnd you get that with kids birthdays.\nBut some families too just have this like very obligatory, like every year on your birthday, like we have to get you a gift.\nLike you have to get everyone Christmas gifts, like everyone, you know, Christmas gifts.\n17:41\nIt does just really result in this like it's like the opposite of the intended thing.\nBecause then you get this thing that's like thoughtless or just kind of like you're like, I don't know.\nAnd then that makes you feel like the person maybe even knows you less than you thought.\n17:57\nI get great gifts to my partner so I feel like I do like gifty but I don't like.\nI don't need gifts though.\nI just see it as one more way that I'm like, you are such a sweetheart and you get me and you look out for little things, but that's not I'm I will yes, they were not good gift givers that I I.\n18:15\nThis is totally true for my for my marriage.\nI am an excellent gift giver.\nI will just own that about myself because.\nWords of self affirmation.\nWords of self affirmation I am a great gift giver and I.\nAm a lousy gift giver.\nWell one of my hacks is that I just keep a note on my phone.\n18:34\nThis works especially well for my husband, who is very forgetful and like, not very thinks about stuff.\nSo he'll tell me in in like, you know, July that he's like, I really want this cookbook.\nAnd then like Christmas rolls around and I give him the cookbook.\nHe totally forgot that he asked for it.\n18:51\nSo I mean, it works for anyone to, like keep track of things that they mentioned that they would like, but it works especially well for people who forgot that they mentioned that thing.\nAnd then he's like, this looks like such a cool cookbook.\nWhere did you find this?\nYou told me, but you forgot and I'm like you.\n19:07\nKnow you really well, and I thought that you would be interested in it, but I do just, like, keep track of things that people mentioned to me that they want or need.\nAnd I just try to like, take note of that.\nBut it works.\nYeah.\nIt'll really works on, like, people that you spend a lot of time with.\nBut my husband, gift giving is not his love language.\n19:26\nAnd I think that that's one that we figured out.\nYeah.\nThat like, it's, it's kind of a hard one to, like, fake it because he would try to, like, buy me nice things.\nBut then it's like, you know, somebody buys you jewelry who doesn't really know your taste.\nI don't.\nWant to wear that this?\nIs why like gift giving is about the thoughtfulness and not the amount of money spent because then you could like buy a really expensive piece of jewelry.\n19:47\nI don't think he's really done that, but like he, I could see that having happened and then you're like, oh cool, like a heart-shaped necklace.\nAnd so I think that he's realized that it's a better act of I don't know what kind of love language this is, but just realizing that I would be much happier if you were like.\n20:07\nYou should just go pick yourself out some jewelry that you really like.\nAnd feel free go crazy with it or you should take your daughter to Disney World with your friends.\nWe also did that.\nThat was a great one.\nMyself there, but I don't know.\nYeah, so.\nQuality time.\nI'm here to report an extremely groundbreaking study.\n20:25\nBut first, just a basic description of quality time, you know, not just sitting and watching Netflix while you're both on each other's, like, not each other's phones, but your own individual phones.\nBut actually, you know, the solidly hanging out, maybe going on a hike.\nBut I just love the study that I found, which is in Contemporary Family Therapy by Hogan in 2022.\n20:45\nAnd they looked at 49 couples.\nAnd I'm so happy that they did this because they found that couples that spent more time arguing per day were less satisfied in their relationships and couples who found a greater time having positive conversations.\n21:02\nIt's like, did that, did that have to be a study you?\nKnow again though, I I am.\nLearning that maybe it did a reminder to men out there that if you are fighting, you might have a low satisfaction in in your relationship and that leads to other things, physical touch.\n21:23\nOh, I do want to say something about quality time.\nThis one was also a little bit like, I was like, who who is like, this is not my love language, right?\nLike who is in a relationship with somebody?\nAnd then it's like, oh, but I don't actually like any value from quality time until I was doing my Reddit research and there were some people who answered, there's a question that was like, what is your like non traditional love language?\n21:45\nYou know, like not one of the Gary Chapman 5 love languages.\nAnd there were at least a couple of people on there who were like being left alone, giving me my space.\nI guess so I was thinking about this and before my partner and I lived with each other, I would have said quality time like 1000%, you know, time just the two of us to hang out.\n22:07\nWe're either with groups of friends, we're working, all these different things.\nBut now that I feel like we are together all the time, I still want to be with him.\nI still like, love our time together.\nBut if I were to think about like what I'm craving, it is not, I don't know, OK?\n22:25\nIt's not at this with me.\nI'm not really.\nEverything's working fine.\nYeah.\nAnd I think that after the pandemic when especially those of us who are used to like our jobs, it we're mostly out of the house.\nAnd I think that there are a lot of us that since the pandemic we're just like home more.\nThat's definitely true for my husband and me.\n22:41\nAnd I guess I wouldn't say that it's my love language, but I do crave.\nI don't get to watch stupid ROM coms on Netflix.\nI don't I I watch YouTube videos of Warren Buffett at night sitting alongside my husband.\nYou should put headphones on and then I suppose that is also a love language is watching 2 separate things on your phone sitting side by side wearing headphones because sometimes you that.\n23:03\nYour hand out.\nYeah, exactly.\nYou can still be holding hands, get that physical touch.\nI also think that there's maybe a difference between like healthy boundary stuff where you need for yourself to exist as a human being within any kind of relationship that's not actually a love language.\n23:19\nAnd I was a little worried for people that they were asked that question and that was literally the first thing that came to their mind.\nBut reach out.\nIf that was you, we'd love to.\nHear maybe it was B who knows I I love spending time maybe it was your husband I just want to be by myself with my old white man videos I'm.\n23:39\nGonna watch Warren buffeting without any fucking interruptions.\nI need to hear someone with a lot of wrinkles who is male listen talk about finance without my wife saying that this is boring, can she please leave me alone?\nSo physical touch, hugs, cuddles, you know, groping, make it a little grab grab in there.\n23:58\nSo another super fun study that I thought I I don't want to do this too much because I have a feeling it was probably done by a student.\nIt came out of UVA in 2024 but it looked at 5 total couples and then it recruited 5 strangers and they found this is crazy that people like touches with their person where they're in a relationship more than the strangers.\n24:20\nCan I know more about this study?\nIt was there like a secret hand box and you like stick your hand in the box and can't see who's on the other side of this like hand glory hole.\nLike they could see you're being like.\nTouched by like a hand through the glory hole and you have to guess if it's your partner.\nCan I do that?\n24:37\nStudy it.\nWas like a very basic like non sexual wrist touch but they felt like well the partners touch the wrist in different ways and like covered more surface area.\nAnd I'm like did you only do 5 couples because you realized after 5 couples what on earth am I doing?\nI didn't have.\n24:54\nTo do this, but thank you for keeping our podcast grounded in research.\nK this is important.\nYeah, now you know those five couples.\nThere's also kind of like super fun, cool ones that show how like your brave your brain wavelength like matches up with your partners.\nWhen you guys touch each other, it kind of like sings and becomes calm together.\n25:12\nOK, yeah, I have heard a little about this where if you touch a stranger.\nOh, so I also learned in my, you know, good girls research division, the part time lab.\nCoat.\nSo French and colleagues published a paper in 2019 on sociosexuality.\n25:33\nNow you might be wondering at home, what does sociosexuality mean?\nIt turns out this is a scientific word for swinging, which I just love.\nAnd it found that overall.\nSo looked at 204 newlywed couples and it found that among those who swang or were sociosexual, that overall was there was a greater like decrease in satisfaction over time, but except for those who are having more frequent sex and higher sexual satisfaction and low stress.\n26:06\nSo I just feel like, OK, so there's a portion of these people who are like super, super like cool sex animals.\nAnd they're like, yeah, whatever, We're both having sex with other people.\nBut I'm like low stress and I mean, awesome.\nI feel like there might be some drugs involved in that equation and they were able to keep up their happiness, but.\n26:22\nYeah.\nIs this like you are having more sex overall or unless you're having frequent sex with each other as well, more sex?\nOh.\nThat's interesting.\nThey just said more frequent sex, but they did not.\nYeah, you're right.\nThey could have just been increased if you just swing all the time, but then you're so happy.\n26:43\nYeah, if every single day you're having sex with a different person.\nEspecially if physical touch is your love life.\nIf you are one of the people on Reddit whose love language is just blowjobs, then it does seem like you should just have as many possible opportunities for blowjobs and it say as you can.\n27:01\nYeah.\nI mean, this is one that I've heard in general about the swinging culture and some of the, like, the parties and stuff.\nIs that like how it's portrayed on TV versus like, how it is in real life.\nAnd it's all like one of those reality shows that's like people that are into doing interesting things.\nI forget what show it was, but basically that it was this younger couple that, like, wanted to try going to a sex party and they did.\n27:23\nAnd it was all just like.\nOlder you people, yeah, you know, they're like, they're just like, sexually.\nFreer.\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\nBut it wasn't like, you know, one of these like, Basque parties from like, the sexy shows where like, everybody is rich and hot, totally rich.\n27:38\nAnd like, yeah. 25 years old and things like that.\nSo they, I think that they like went to the party for a little bit and then they were like, OK.\nYeah, maybe I only wanted to be with you.\nI don't know, I I feel like I picture Kristen and Sandy on the OC if anybody ever watch into the later scene.\n27:58\nYeah, with like the nice expensive watches on the table.\nYeah, I'm like, I would go to that swing aim party seems very clean.\nYeah, yeah.\nI don't think that we live in the right zip code for that K.\nShucks, just kidding.\n28:15\nPlease don't contact.\nToo many of our leaders for.\nWatching them.\nPlease do not.\nI'm not.\nInterested.\nNot actually interested in joining your watch party?\nYou can never live up to my partner.\nGentlemen.\nSo there was another just funny story and this really doesn't belong anywhere but I wanted to share it.\n28:33\nSo I looked at 169 marriages over the 1st 18 months of marriage and they showed that there are significant changes in personality over those 18 months where men become slightly less agreeable and women become less like extroverted and there's declines and and openness.\n28:50\nAnd that made me kind of sad.\nYeah.\nYeah.\nSo maybe, yeah.\nMaybe that's why we have to be sociosexual.\nI don't know.\nI also think this reminds me of the study that it was like men who are married live longer but like women who are single are happier or something like that.\n29:10\nBut basically the theory being that, like, women hound their husbands into, like, doing basic kinds of self-care, like scheduling doctor's appointments until those men live longer.\nYeah, yeah, yeah.\nAll the women in Jerry, in Jerry Bear's books are just, like, running around after their husbands, picking up for them.\n29:27\nAnd they're like acts of service is my love language.\nThey're actually, and they're also much more likely to stay when the partner gets a serious diagnosis and all that.\nBut again, you know, we're trapped being straight.\nSo we will accept our male partners and love them all the way.\n29:44\nAnd this does not apply to our own male partners, but in general, just, you know, across the.\nGender, yeah.\nSo I guess the question is, does it matter if love languages aren't real if they help us?\nThen.\n29:59\nClearly need them.\nAnd I think that it still comes up in like legitimate therapy contexts outside of the church, and not because anybody is recommending the book to people, but just again, this kind of like conversation starter.\n30:15\nThe only thing is I just wish that acts of service, even though I do get that there's a difference, I wish that there was a way to like, just make it clear, like first make sure that household tasks are equal and then we can start talking about acts of service.\nBut if your acts of service are just you getting up to like 40% when your wife currently does like 70% and that's not.\n30:39\nYeah, yeah.\nOr just things around that are just sort of shared household tasks to begin with.\nLike I think one that is nice is that I'm not a morning person and my husband is.\nAnd like that he will like make coffee and sometimes even bring me coffee upstairs if I'm particularly slow moving.\n30:56\nAnd I feel like that is something that's not like part of the.\nRegular every single morning.\nNo, I don't yell, but I'm like, I'm like, why can't you wake up at 7:00?\nSo you're the morning person in your house.\nI'm the morning person and then being up in the morning just naturally leads to you doing more in the morning and so you know I'm a fighter you will get up for.\n31:18\nNow I can be trying to get out of doing things in the morning, but having two kids has made that difficult for me and I am forced to live in a world born, born to be rolling around in bed still at 10 AM, forced to be packing lunches.\nHave you seen the slither method?\n31:36\nNo, go on, you lie.\nDown in bed and then when it's like time to get up, like instead of thinking, oh wow, I have to like raise my head and get up and open my eyes, you just flop out.\nYou literally like rise out of bed and you like crawl.\nI think it's like her name's Mel.\nShe's an Instagram.\n31:52\nShe's like a six year old woman who helps you think about life.\nAnd there's a video and she's like a very well put together, like beautiful PJS, all that 6 year old woman and she's just like.\nAnd now I rise.\nYeah I know I haven't tried this open really to trying anything.\n32:08\nCurrently my method is picking up my phone immediately, which I hear the experts tell you is great and just immediately starting to scroll things.\nThe experts say that if you go to any therapist, they'll be like just.\nYeah, use your phone.\n32:24\nDo.\nYeah, and use your phone more and start earlier and then go later and do it till you fall asleep.\nAnd then when you wake up in the middle of the night, then pick up your phone again.\nThat's what they say.\nThink about how excited you are to see your kids and just hop right up.\n32:42\nOK, so I asked my partner what he thought that my love language was and he said, oh, you like gifting?\nAnd I said, no, that's like not even the case because I don't care at all that my parents don't give to me.\nI just like it that you gift because this is part of your curious, sweet personality.\n32:58\nAnd he's like, he looks at me and he goes, You like the physical?\nAnd I asked would not approve but go on.\nHe, he said that his favorite thing that I do is that when I walk up to him and I give him like a hug and I say that I love him and I kiss him.\n33:19\nI do, you know, one or two times a day Cuz he's like, it's just that like natural, like you really genuinely mean it and you really do love me.\nSo I guess that would mean it's like words of affirmation plus physical touch.\nYeah, this is what they're, they're very overlapping.\nSo and that's why I also feel like it's just maybe more of a starting point because yeah, they're very overlapping.\n33:41\nSome of these are very vague and like things like acts of service, like changing an occasional diaper or not an act of service.\nSo I think the word that you use genuine is a big part of it because it's also just kind of like whatever it is, if it's coming from a genuine place and not, I mean, even look like words of affirmation, like if you were just like you are so special.\n34:01\nWell, that and like to me the ultimate thing of love and it's nice that all the the rest of the things happen too, but it's like the other person seeing you for who you are and like loving and embracing that whole self, if that makes sense.\nAnd I think that, you know, when my partner is like, oh, like you used to narrate porn and I love that about you.\n34:24\nAnd I also think it's impressive that you do that.\nIt just makes me feel like they see me and that does it for me.\nThat's a really good point and that's why this whole subcategory of the Internet with people making jokes, we pulled some from from our Internet research lab.\n34:39\nThere are such examples as cat photos, head scratches, inside jokes, shit talking head.\nScratches.\nDo you like head scratches?\nMy gosh, I am like such a slut for them.\nI am miss mad.\nThis is why I am part cat dog.\n34:56\nI don't know.\nCheck with Sabrina Carpenter.\nI don't.\nYeah.\nOK.\nI didn't interrupt you, no.\nI find it very relaxing and if that is your kink or your love language, if you haven't been to a Japanese head spa, you should totally go because it's just like that for two hours.\n35:11\nI don't even get massages because I do not like people touching me, which is.\nInteresting that physical touch and see this is what I mean is that the broad 5 categories are trash because like for you that means very specific things.\nI only want my partner.\nYeah, you have them.\nFrom right, exactly and like under what context and things like that.\n35:31\nAnd so it's more that like intimacy of knowing exactly from the other person what that is, that's acceptable, whether it's like head scratches, blowjobs, commenting and porn together, you know, any of those kinds of things.\nThat that that is very important.\n35:49\nOne that I really liked was, and I do do this for my husband, is remembering the names of people that I forgot and like whispering them when they're walking up or I do a lot of like, oh, hey, you know my friend Samantha, right, Samantha?\n36:05\nBecause you know him well enough to know that he wishes that he knew the name, that he didn't remember it because of some reason that has nothing to do with his respect to the person.\nAnd so you're able to read that part of their personality.\nI know that they that they need that.\nIt's like my partner sometimes knows that I'm on a roll and I'm doing well.\n36:23\nI don't really need that much help.\nBut he knows that like on Saturday mornings, if I don't get my like, workout in, then I get frazzled.\nAnd so that's where the active service comes in of taking the kids away for as long as possible.\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\nSo like, whatever you want to call it is the important thing.\n36:39\nThe last one on here was singing karaoke.\nThis is one of my love languages and it is one it.\nIs not what I'm on.\nDo not get from my partner.\nAny compatible it would make us.\nLove each other less if he did try to sing karaoke because singing is not one of his skills.\n36:57\nSo this is where I will also put in a plug for and this is something that I think is kind of not talked about a lot in the whole like Christian relationship advice mode of things.\nThere's so much in that Christian dating advice kind of stuff about like your partner being your everything and that they like fulfill your every need and that like all of these love languages that you require have to be spoken by your partner.\n37:21\nSo it's a very good example of like, I love to sing karaoke.\nWould never ask my partner to do it, would be uncomfortable if he offered.\nAnd yeah, there are plenty of other people in my life that can.\nHe could be a beautiful.\nOther hobbies, no.\nI've heard him sing.\n37:37\nNo, OK, no.\nMy partner is not a bad singer and he plays the guitar and I feel bad but I don't appreciate those parts at all.\nHe is well hung however.\nWoo Hoo.\nHuge alpha males like a tree trunk.\nYes.\nWe want to make sure that all of our listeners know.\n37:56\nSo there's no, there's no, you know, you see him on the streets.\nJust no.\nWow.\nHuge.\nAnd there was this very cute story.\nA lot of the answers that I saw were just like 2 words.\nThis one was this story from I think an older man that he was talking about how his wife had been a tango dancer for like had been into dancing for years and years and loved to go out dancing.\n38:18\nSo his expression of love to her was that he took lessons and learned how to tango dance and now they go out together all the time.\nBut he was just saying how it was this great opportunity for them both to appreciate each other.\nAnd I think that that's what I hear in a lot of these stories that like she appreciates him having taken the time to learn this thing just cuz it matters to her.\n38:39\nBut he was like, I love to go with her because she's so beautiful and she gets all dressed to the nines and I get to see her in her element.\nBut he's like, but then I also feel like a really great partner and he's like, and I'll go dance like I get to like, you know, dance and enjoy myself.\n38:56\nAnd he's like, also I feel like she walks away.\nHe's like, cuz the men there are so so and I'm the best looking man there and then she.\nI love the self-confidence.\nYes, positive self affirmation.\nYou go Reddit guy.\nWoo Hoo what was I going to say?\n39:13\nI feel like if you go back to even high school, how many high school girls have you are friends with any high school girls, then you might know that how they're asked to dances is a big deal.\nAnd even if they have long standing boyfriends and it's very obvious they're going to go to the dance, they need that kind of extra act that says, hey, I'm really interested in you and you're worth making this elaborate sign or poster for.\n39:40\nAnd you're going to get that little sign that I'd love, and I'm into you.\nYeah, yeah.\nAt the end of the day, I feel like, yeah, it's all about just saying like I see you and I get you and I really appreciate you for who you are.\nSo if at the end of the day that is what Gare bear, what conversation he sparked for us, then blessings to him and his multi book empire.\n40:05\nGo Gare bear.\nYeah, women do like sex.\nMy my partner would literally say that that's like my love language.\nAnd actually, I have a distinct memory that when we were early on in our first months dating, he dropped me off after a movie.\nAnd I was like, will you come into the house with me?\n40:22\nNo, I really need to go back and do some work.\nAnd I was like, we might be incompatible as partners.\nHe's.\nLike I need to go back into my bed and listen to Warren Buffett videos.\nI I have some Warren studying to do tonight.\nIt's like you can't sit next to me in a movie theater and like lightly touch me for two hours.\n40:41\nAnd I not think that we're going to have some hanky panky afterwards, but that's that's just the way that he.\nIs love language for the ladies?\nListen up, Gare Bare.\nYeah, we also, my partner and I probably have the reverse relationship on that, that I'd be like, oh, what can I do to get my partner to have some more sex with me?\n40:58\nHow do I know?\nHe loves getting.\nHe hasn't boomed me in a while.\nIt's been 3 hours so to go back we always revisit some things discussed in our prior episodes before ending and Sex appeal was an episode that generated a lot of conversation afterwards about what is your thing that you see and you're like Yep that guy is hot, that guy fucks.\n41:24\nAnd we found out from a listener that hers is when a guy shuffles cards, which I can see like when they really know how to do like the cool like card shuffling.\nI, I see this one and I think that it really fits the criteria of what we were asking that it's like not an inherently like associated with hot guy thing on its surface, but it's like something that just like raises a, a green flag sexually speaking.\n41:52\nAlthough I will say potential overlap between really good at shuffling cards and magicians, but I've never been with a magician.\nWell magicians might be a smaller percentage of the population, so you might have a smaller chance of getting with a magician than a guy who knows how to shuffle cards.\n42:10\nAnd I have not looked into the numbers recently.\nI just thinking about Joel from Arrested Development.\nJoke.\nYes.\nThere's obviously a hot magician.\nI've seen them on America's Got Talent.\nYeah, yeah, there are.\nThere are hot magicians.\n42:26\nI don't know that I want to be with a magician, though.\nI would say that for me, that is probably something that if I saw you doing magic, I would be less interested in sex just because I don't want that kind of I don't want somebody doing magical numbers on me when we are together.\n42:43\nI think that most magicians would tell you that they're not going to bust out their magic tricks during slacks.\nYou don't know that you've never been with one either have.\nYou.\nYeah, I was having sex with 1 and then also now I was just under the bed and I wasn't sure how.\nExactly.\n43:02\nOh, I did hear a story about that one.\nSo something this was son another great podcast, normal gossip.\nBut there was one about that where he wasn't a magician, but they were like somehow in the apartment of like he was friends with her brothers, with someone who was a magician.\nAnd there was like a magic trick bed.\nI won't give away the ending, but you should listen to that podcast.\n43:20\nI also like calling out other podcasts and then also on hottest biblical characters Kane we overlooked Kane a.\nClassic.\nBad boy.\nYeah, it's classic bad boy.\nAnd the person said I think I can change him, you know, also older brother, apparently older brothers are hot, which is not personally a thing for me.\n43:42\nI think being from a big family, just like any brothers, I mean, I'm not interested in any of my brothers, but in terms of order, order.\nYeah, birth order.\nOh, that should be a study that somebody should do.\nImpact on hotness.\nBirth order and sex appeal.\n43:57\nI think that middle children are more likely to be comedians.\nAnd so that would probably be like the guys middle.\nYeah, 4 out of seven, Yeah.\nI mean, I guess when you have 7 kids in your family, there's a pretty good shot at being a middle child, so.\nI could also be considered the younger or the older of different bashes of kids depending on how you look at it.\n44:15\nYeah.\nSo to kind of go and conclude up this episode, love languages scientifically based, I would say each individual element of this love languages is but the actual like science, as Garriger put it out not, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't show some words of affirmation and leave us to.\n44:38\nYourself to us.\nYes, but only.\nOnly if we're great though.\nWe can't take words of criticism right now, unfortunately.\nThank you so much.\nI do not need negative affirmation, but I thank you for listening and I hope you have a great day.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":9,"createdAt":"2025-09-16T17:08:08.966Z","updatedAt":"2025-09-17T18:58:14.087Z"},{"id":8,"title":"The Orgasm Gap: Stealing Happy Endings Since Forever","slug":"The-Orgasm-Gap-Stealing-Happy-Endings-Since-Forever","description":"SJ and Kay discuss the persistent tragedy facing heterosexual women, The Orgasm Gap. This 30% pleasure difference means guys finish 8 out of 10 times, while straight gals are stuck at 4-5, probably wondering if their climax got lost in the mail. Meanwhile, ladies in lesbian relationships are racking up 6-8 and making hosts question why sexuality can’t be a choice. The clitoris is not a secret level in a video game, yet a third of surveyed people can’t find it on a vagina map.  As always, books are discussed with main male leads ranked in their sexual prowess, a report fresh from Good Girls Research Division. SJ and Kay advocate for open communication, sexual exploration, and quirky resources to close the gap. People, there is a nationwide sex recession! This is serious business.","spotifyEmbedId":"2sbYeuQNFklFllyczuLH0x","releaseDate":"September 9, 2025","duration":"44 minutes","topics":["female orgasm","Sexual health","Self-discovery","communication","sex","sex stories"],"transcript":"Speaker 1 (00:00.13)\nWelcome to episode 8 of Good Girls. Today we're talking about the Orgasm Gap. So if you're in the car with your father-in-law, I hope you guys are having a really smooth drive with no traffic, but turn it off because it's likely going to be pretty uncomfortable to listen to.\n\n\nSpeaker 2 (00:18.804)\nat this point things have already gotten weird with your father-in-law.\n\nI already said orgasm gap. You already are probably driving with somebody who is experiencing an orgasm gap in their relationship.\n\nshould have read the episode title.\n\nSo to start off with, let's just establish what is the orgasm gap? And this has been pretty consistently found in study after study, including ones done really recently, which is super depressing that there's about a 30 percentage point gap between men who report having an orgasm during a sexual encounter and women and to hetero women. It is a little bit less for lesbians.\n\nand hetero women.\n\nSpeaker 1 (01:01.72)\nSo to go into that, what that looks like, for every 10 times that people have sex, men will orgasm eight of those times, whereas women will orgasm four to five of those times, which is pretty depressing. Now for women in lesbian relationships, that number increases to about six to eight of those times. Yeah.\n\nthe study that I read that was just focused on, was that they had all their data was disaggregated by sexuality or the sex of your partner, then yeah, for hetero women, was one out of, or three out of 10 times, 30 % was what it dropped to, 32%. So, yikes, ladies.\n\nAnd there was a pretty fascinating post from Aking Amy in the Purple Pail debate about this. And it was, is male sexuality a net harm to women and women are better off de-centering men and entering into relationships with each other? Now this was an extreme argument. I won't get completely into it. But the\n\nevidence suggests that women would be having more orgasms if they're in relationships with each other than with men.\n\ntrue, although then this gets back into, we know that sexuality is not a choice because if it were, I would be a lesbian. So many friend groups or like couples, friends where we sit around talking and\n\nSpeaker 1 (02:20.427)\nI feel like I have\n\nSpeaker 1 (02:27.118)\nI involve men if we...\n\nchoice I would be married if I could choose who I was attracted to I would be married to the woman in this group of four of us I would be married to the woman and we would have a tastefully decorated home and we would just have all of the same hobbies in common and there would be no meat consumed in my house like we would just be so happy together and our husbands would go marry each other and live in a formless box\n\nThey were just like...\n\nThey were just throwing so many meats on fire.\n\nWith an open fire pit in the middle throwing meats on it and not arguing about who cleans the bathroom because just neither of them would clean the bathroom.\n\nSpeaker 1 (03:08.056)\nIt will just grow up and funk and then eventually one of their moms will come to visit and they will clean it for them. True.\n\nSo, Aking Amy, I think that this is a nice thought, if I Some of us are trapped! I would want, for a myriad of other reasons, I don't personally experience the orgasm gap in my relationship, but for numerous other reasons, I would be opting for that lesbian relationship. So, unfortunately, scientifically proven, can't choose your sexuality otherwise.\n\nYeah\n\nSpeaker 1 (03:39.946)\nWhat I think is kind of beautiful is that there is an opportunity to not only close this gap, but to make it in the opposite direction because women actually have way, way, way shorter refractory periods than men. You know, a woman can orgasm one after another after another. It is not at all unheard of in real life, in books, in anything for a woman to have, you know, up to three orgasms or more per session. Whereas men on the other hand,\n\nLike you know they have like their one orgasm and they're like I'm gonna need some time don't touch\n\nI'm gonna need some meat it's thrown on a fire.\n\ngoing to need to go talk to other dads while throwing meats on fire while my kid is somewhere I'm not sure about.\n\nCigarettes for they got to have some relaxation time\n\nSpeaker 1 (04:36.812)\nWomen actually also have slightly longer orgasms on average. Ours are about 20 seconds, whereas men are about like five seconds-ish. And for those who do have them, have them regularly, they're reported as more intense than males. So we have a lot of good things going on with our orgasms. It's just that gap, and it just makes me so upset that it still exists in such a strong way. And I feel like it's part of the way I justify\n\ntalking about sex as much as I do.\n\nthough not, okay, as you have pointed out, in the romance genre that's one place where we're kind of trying to fantasize, at least in our imaginary worlds, about breaking out of reality, because no, I don't know if you were able to do a full scientific, you know, data analysis literature review on it, but I'm very curious to hear, I know you had discussed doing a literature review on the ratio of times woman orgasms in books to the male orgasm.\n\nYes, this is extremely important. I am reporting live from Good Girls Research Division.\n\nGood listeners, I would like you to know that Kay has just pulled up her official spreadsheet with her notes on this topic.\n\nSpeaker 1 (05:46.766)\nspreadsheet of orgasms per encounter and I looked at top three male leads. Zayden Ryerson\n\nResand, ooh, I do not know Resand's last name, but he's from A Court of Thorns and Roses, and he's very well known, also called Reese. And Lucas from The Deep End, Ali Hazelwood. The Deep End, for those of you who may not have read it, is not Ali Hazelwood's necessarily her strongest book, but it is her sexiest book by far. And when you are not in the mood, you just go and you read that book and you will be right in the mood for whoever your partner is. So I went through and I looked at orgasms per encounter.\n\nAnd what we were averaging was about four to five orgasms per encounter. these were high, the ratio was highest for, dun, dun, dun, Resand, who is 500 years old. I mean. And he's also banging an 18 year old, but that's like a separate, we're not going to get into the age gap.\n\njust want to say he's really bucking the trend. This is next on my reading list, Kay, but one of the studies that I read was that there is some decrease in male orgasms over time due to the loss of testosterone. I think that's being counteracted in more recent years by the rise of little blue pills, but I just got to say whatever he's doing, we want to know his morning routine. It's really working for him.\n\nat age 500 and still getting off his 20s.\n\nSpeaker 2 (07:13.678)\nSo many questions about that, but okay, looking forward to reading.\n\nThat's actually really interesting because their first hookup he gets her off and he's like now it's sleep time nothing for me and that's supposed to be really like look he's so unselfish she's really putting her first but now he might have like really low tea\n\nMay December.\n\nSpeaker 2 (07:38.484)\nHe needs to go to the bathroom and some of his testosterone gel on so that he can recover it.\n\nI just forgot my blue pill, that's all. You think that I'm being selfless, but no.\n\nso many questions, but I that's next up on my read list. So good girls, I will be reporting back.\n\nAnd I do wonder because just with the overall growth of books written in romance, people reading romance, including, you know, girls in high school, girls in college, if this is going to be an overall net good to the orgasm gap because we're going to go into relationships thinking, my shit snapped her, you know, my stuff's good. You're going to be feel very, very lucky to go down on me. You want this. And I do think that sometimes, yes, there are some guys who are\n\nNarcissist, but there are some guys who just like they don't know what they're doing and they kind of need that push to you know this is what I want in order to go down and\n\nSpeaker 2 (08:38.957)\nthis is an unscientific view for me, but I do feel like that group is a lot larger. I mean, you hear as the assholes are always the more vocal group in any kind of thing, but I think that the assholes are also usually the majority that are just kind of this like, oh, going down on a woman is nasty, blah, blah. And then I think your group of quiet incompetence is much larger. And so there's hope for that group because they think that they just need a little bit of sex education, a little bit of direction. They need to read the She Comes First book. They need to get\n\ntheir wine pairings down. But I have to say if you have that as your setup where the woman comes first, then you are kind of default setting things up because also yeah, I do think one of the things that comes up in the research a lot that I think a lot of people know is that it also takes women longer to get going, more foreplay is needed. So I think if you, and then that like for the guys, they're just kind of like bing bang done. And so I think that if you do have that as the typical or\n\nYay.\n\nSpeaker 2 (09:38.952)\nof events where it's like the guy just gets really excited they're like and then\n\nYeah. Done in four minutes. Yeah.\n\nThen it's of like that's anticlimactic, so that is why the romance books, and honestly the pornos too, there's like lots of different back and forth of things, but you see in pornos which are very like male pleasure-centric, are still, I mean I think that's part of like the male power, the male prowess, is that they're like so expertly able to repeatedly and powerfully get this woman off, but you'll see that where there's like multiple female orgasms, and then like everything culminates in the money shot.\n\nThe money shot. how we love the money shot. Basically an orgasmic pleasure in itself, the money shot for men and women alike, right?\n\nYes. all over the face. That's a different episode.\n\nSpeaker 1 (10:32.416)\ninto an argument about\n\nthe orgasm gap this weekend where a male informed me that actually the orgasm gap is because men and women just aren't finding compatible partners with each other. If a woman does not orgasm from penetrative sex alone and she's with a partner who does not like fingering or oral, then they are simply in an incompatible sexual relationship and she needs to find a guy\n\nwho does like oral and fingering. And I said, well, I just want you to know from the woman's point of view, I think that a guy who is not interested in fingering or oral for a girl might be universally viewed as a poor partner. He said that I was viewing women as a monolith and that there was women out there who only\n\nReally limiting himself, yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1 (11:28.448)\norgasm from vaginal sex and that I wasn't acknowledging that. And I didn't want to be too argumentative, but I did want to let him know that he's probably never given a woman an orgasm before in his life.\n\nI would agree with that and I would be interested as this post sits out there to hear from the one to three women out there who exclusively orgasm through vaginal penetration, through P and V penetration. Because, I mean, I do know that there are women who can orgasm that way. One of five. Yes, those women are the minority who can orgasm that way and that's not to say that that's their exclusive or their...\n\nTheir preferred way or their strongest orgasms is one in five and so I just have this funny feeling that the guy who was sharing this with me and going on about it was that It's not like he's only ever encountered that one in five But instead he encountered the other 80 % who were just like this is horrible sex, but who knows maybe he has some other strange\n\nI mean, have orgasm that way and I would agree it's like a less sad, I mean, and it would take like very specific circumstances and angles and it's just sort of like a lesser quality for me. so even if I, but I'm just saying like if I was with that guy and then, and I had the potential to have that type of orgasm, but you just have somebody who's just like, like this is all I'm gonna do for you. You better like this or like you can go find somebody.\n\nAn oral just isn't my thing. I'm sorry.\n\nSpeaker 2 (13:01.934)\nI would just be like, okay, well, huge turn off. This is not going to be between the two of us anyway.\n\nI also just, I can't help but wonder for the 20 who report vaginal orgasms or frequency of that, if there is actual some clitoris stimulation or other stimulation that is happening during sex and they're counting it as like I had the orgasm during sex and therefore it was a vaginal one. Maybe that's, right. I see your face. You're like, don't belittle those women who reported that. They knew what they were doing.\n\nmean, I think it can have, especially because again, like I feel like there, if you have like certain angles, I'm making hand gestures here that you can't see. But you know, like I could see like the mechanics of it is sometimes there is like pressure against the clitoris, even if there's not like somebody digitally stimulating it. So I think that's like kind of the point. The whole... Exactly. The whole G-spot thing. I don't know, you know.\n\nI used to, G-spots was a big Cosmo thing, like the 18 G-spots, and I used to really think about those G-spots.\n\nbe a separate episode, but this is when we bring in our gynecologist specialist. We're gonna bring in that expert because I have questions about that. But then again, I don't know because I have also not been with a man who is literally so big that he extends all the way up to my throat. And so in that case you may be experiencing something that feels like an orgasm because it is actually your body just like convulsing and death.\n\nSpeaker 1 (14:32.012)\nhaven't seen those things that was like if the guy in like books and stuff like if the guy like curls his fingers while he's fingering you then he hits the spot or something and so I was curious I was like maybe I'm missing something maybe it just never happened and so I asked for it and I was like ow\n\nI don't know, but let's bring an expert in here because as previously mentioned my only sex education that wasn't abstinence only came through Cosmo, and I'm not sure how reliable of a sex ed teacher that was, so we'll leave that one to the experts.\n\nYou know what made me happy is that a guy who reported that he always gives his partner multiple orgasms and that if anything the ratio is in her favor not his. He said that some early on education that he got was from Maxim and that Maxim had a whole article, so I would call that you know men's version of Cosmo, that it's like licking an ice cream cone.\n\nyeah, I have read some good sex. I lived in a co-ed dorm in college and so some of my dorm neighbors were subscribers to Maxim. So I was reading the articles because I don't know if it's just playboy. me... Or what? yeah, there was like some genuine, yeah, like tips in there. Thank you.\n\nThank you, Maxon. Looking out for us.\n\nSpeaker 2 (15:49.056)\nI the ABCs one too. Yes. feel like I've heard that when people have gotten that one from Maxim of like do the whole alphabet. Although I feel like that was also in a movie at some point too. So maybe that one's more that's like a guy's talking about what his trick is and he says like I do the alphabet.\n\nOh, now that's really interesting. saw, I've seen the ABCs reference and I figured it was like just the ABC. I didn't realize they just sit there and do the.\n\nThey do a whole alphabet. think that's supposed to be the tip, but I think that depends how dedicated to your craft you are because I really think if you got went through ABC and repeated...\n\nfeedback midway because like they might just realize that like really only the eye\n\nAnd then she's like kind of tuned out because you've totally lost them\n\nSpeaker 1 (16:38.112)\nYeah, there's like no rhythm happening. It's like, sorry, I'm trying to make my pee.\n\nThis is a man who is earnestly trying if he is getting through the whole alphabet, which is more than can be said for, like the guy that you were with the fight in on Reddit and things like that, so...\n\nYeah, it's just an incompatibility. She just wants oral and fingering and she's not gonna get it if that guy is only interested in vagina. Like it's like, yeah, well, yeah, nobody's going to get enjoyment out of that guy. That guy will be an incel. He will join his little incel community and he'll be like, I just can't find a compatible person. It's cause they work. But I.\n\nWhat is wrong with women these days?\n\nSpeaker 1 (17:17.975)\nthink that a big part, I don't know, to me the big part of the orgasm gap, and it's very difficult to dig into these things because they're so under reported and so taboo to talk about a lot of these topics, just asking for things and feeling like your job in the bedroom isn't just to please the guy. And I think that that's a big part of it. think when you're a more sexually free woman, because that's how you were raised and all that,\n\nat 2X chromosomes, I would say is a super sex positive female space. when this question is posed there, all the women are like, I'm having tons of orgasms compared to my partner, who you're talking about. it's like, but this is like a very distinct space of people who would go on this. There is a huge other amount of women in the United States who are in very much more conservative relationships where the dynamics are totally different.\n\nYeah, I'd be curious to read. know there's been a number of studies and you and I both read a few of them on the orgasm gap, but and they were broken down by different things. I was reading one that was age based, another one that was based on the sexuality or the gender of each partner. I would be really interested to know what kind of other lifestyle or ideological things have an impact on it, know, similar. What was the one that you had mentioned in a previous episode about kind of the\n\nmore traditional people who viewed relationships traditionally had like less pleasure. I'd be curious to know like what the orgasm gap is there between people who hold more traditional viewpoints versus people who are more, either more like sexually educated or have more sort of like progressive views.\n\nBecause while the study on traditional rules was not asking about orgasms in specific, it was asking about sexual satisfaction. Women in traditional relationships were reporting lower sexual satisfaction, which would be pretty highly linked to orgasms. In my unstudied opinion, but that seems like there would be an association there.\n\nSpeaker 2 (19:21.112)\nYeah.\n\nSpeaker 2 (19:27.554)\nWell, and also I think that like another thing about like more conservative groups is that there is a real dim view on like self exploration or masturbation or anything like that. so if you don't have especially for women, like I think with men, at least in my personal experience, the What is the devil's DJ? Imagine the\n\nfor women.\n\nSpeaker 1 (19:45.198)\nOkay.\n\nSpeaker 1 (19:51.283)\nIt's the devil DJing.\n\nheard that one. Does an angel die when you do that one too? Yeah.\n\nThere you are, up there in your bedroom, playing the Devil's DJ.\n\nThat's so that's so cringy then it's actually funny. Um Yeah, like I do feel like yeah with men there's much more of this like oh, you know, it's forbidden But we all kind of unless you're like the very extreme like Mike Johnson and his son that have that like app when they have to report to each You know, you're giving me a confused look. I'm 90 % sure it's Mike Johnson that was doing it but there's this like fundamentalist Christian app that is like supposed to be an accountability thing to reduce it's not just masturbation it's like looking at porn like\n\nany kind of like sinful behavior but it's something like it will you set an accountability so that if you do do that like if you look at porn that it alerts your buddy and I think it was Mike Johnson you don't want those alerts. He was talking about how he and his son were accountability is with each other and I was like what a weird relationship dynamic.\n\nSpeaker 1 (20:59.598)\nYeah\n\nSpeaker 1 (21:03.17)\nmy gosh, I just want to give a ton of credit to my parents, which is that they would never in a million years want that information or to hear it.\n\nYeah, I know. I do feel like at least my parents had like enough of a don't ask, don't tell that they knew that there was more going on and like in an ideal world, there would have been like an actual conversation happening and like talking about protection and getting birth control and things like that. But in lieu of that, I will accept just like not having a conversation at all versus making your kid part of your like weird plot about your own like porn addiction or something. But anyway, to get back on that topic. Yeah, I feel like there's at least like there's conversations about it, right?\n\nin the more fundamentalist kinds of Christian groups, whereas like women masturbating is like, doesn't even like enter, it's so shameful that it like doesn't even enter and it's just like sort of this whole like you just don't even know what is down there, like you've never looked, you can't name anything.\n\nAnd there was a study by UK, by the government, and it showed that about only two thirds of men and women could identify where the clitoris was on a diagram of the... Yeah, but third don't know where the clitoris is, that's where the problem starts. And only about half could identify which hole was the vagina hole. Which...\n\nWell, there's your orgasm\n\nSpeaker 1 (22:29.708)\nMeans I'm not alone. When I was in high school, but still it just shows like this basic education is missing and then what a woman, you know, in high school and college needs to know to be able to self explore and how to get started to self explore and how to not feel shame about it.\n\ntold you you know there was a third hole.\n\nSpeaker 2 (22:50.958)\nBut I do think that at least 5 % of the men that claim to not know which hole was the vagina are just men trying to have anal sex and they're like, I thought it was the vagina! I guess we're having anal sex now. That sounds like something a college boyfriend would do.\n\nmy god.\n\nSpeaker 1 (23:12.462)\nThen like go back to the dorm all proud yeah, I think of like in the movie stranger like horror things with with Emma Thompson and You know, it's a baby's brain is put into a grown adult and so she starts getting a little bit older So when she has like a six-year-old brain she uses an apple to masturbate and she's like, whoa This feels so good. But it's like do you even have the opportunity when you're young?\n\nto do that during any point, you know, if you're not with an apple, please don't use an apple. But I know a neighbor told me when I was in high school that she uses her electric toothbrush and looking back, genius neighbor. she found a vibrator with that toothbrush.\n\nAbsolutely not.\n\nSpeaker 2 (23:59.63)\nI\n\nMostly those self massagers that everybody is buying from Costco and the sharper in it.\n\nMy younger brother got me this like gigantic massager and he gave one to me and one to my partner and he's like what did he mean this like He said no my shoulder just really hurts and so I started using it It's so great that I wanted like all the family to have it. I was thinking he just got everybody about And your heart is so sweet you don't even realize that\n\nYou can each other.\n\nSpeaker 2 (24:26.808)\noperator.\n\nSpeaker 2 (24:33.099)\nSo pure.\n\nIf we think about closing this gap, I first of all think that you just have your partner listen to good girls. Because I learned so many great tips here. But also, know, what books, what magazines are great. And just normalizing that. you know, again, it doesn't have to be like a parent giving it to their child. Like, I'm going to teach you how to successfully masturbate. But just leaving open, you know, you can read these books, these magazines, which might have some helpful content.\n\nYeah, mean, maybe more. So I do remember having conversations with several people that like their moms would have those like harlequin romance kinds of things on the shelves. it's like, but when you have those kinds of things around, it's I mean, I'm sure the mom, especially back in the like 90s, were not leaving those books there for their daughters to find them and explore their sexuality. But I do think that those kinds of books are another way, as we have often talked about romance novels being a good way to kind of like explore these\n\nis up.\n\nSpeaker 2 (25:32.388)\ntopics without reading a textbook on human sexuality, it's like a good way to explore them even if those ones are maybe not the most, I don't know, was gonna say most gender equal, but I feel like they still, like the harlequin old-timey ones, they still do very much like focus first on like the female orgasm and things like that.\n\nAnd you know it's funny because I used to read a lot of historical fiction because my dad and I used to bond by both reading the same books. Historical fiction always has sexual scenes but they're still like kind of a little bit more like men based that if only I had also been reading the same books as...\n\nI hope it was smutty history, okay?\n\nSpeaker 2 (26:10.914)\nwith your dad so that you can start a conversation with your dad about this.\n\nHe's commented before like, yeah, the books always have scenes and then you see the picture of the author and you're like, they're just fantasizing. Things just, again, making it open. Do we need a Sesame Street episode on locating the clitoris? You probably not. When I watch it. Big Bird, hi guys. I want to make sure you know this, since one third of you don't.\n\ncancel us just for saying that.\n\nSpeaker 2 (26:44.27)\nWell, the book that I had mentioned before that I was reading, The Birds, the Bees, and the Elephant in the room, does talk about just having things be very open from a young age. And I was surprised by her suggestion for when to provide condoms for young boys. She was actually suggesting having them available to them, just putting a box under the sink as young as when they're starting puberty, because it also being an encouraged thing. Normalizes it? Normalizing it, but also encouraging them to mask.\n\ninto a condom to make it clean up more easy than like clogging up your pipes or like finding the doing having to do gym sock laundry. I was like that's kind of brilliant because then it's also like a lot of practice with putting on a condom and that they're not this like funny thing but I was like I I really agree with that and at the same time I'm having a hard time picturing me giving my like nine year old son a box of condoms and they not ending up like having\n\nsomething very silly happens to them.\n\nWhat would be more disturbing like a gluey sock and realizing why it's gluey or looking in the garbage bin and realizing that\n\nand just like seeing a bunch of like used condoms in there. Either way, this is just not a developmental stage that I've had to get to yet and to be honest, I'm not, I'm not looking to get to that one anytime soon.\n\nSpeaker 1 (28:09.346)\nBut you gotta appreciate that little kid's brains go right to our natural animalistic places at a very early...\n\nFreud may have been right about one thing.\n\nI don't want to call any particular kid perverts. But they certainly have lot of comfort with nudity in their bodies and all that great stuff. of just tying up this conversation, we'll get to a few other things to end the episode. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal and it was on the sex recession. It used data from NORC, which used to be the National Opinion Research Center, but now they just literally go\n\nby NORC at University of Chicago. And it was done in 2024. And they found that sex is like drastically down. Just 37 % of people aged 18 to 64 report having sex at least once a week. That's down 55 % from 1990. And the decline is even bigger for young adults, where about a quarter have not had sex in the last year, twice as many as 2010. So that's like a major, major difference.\n\nGuys if we're gonna close this sex recession, then you gotta get a little better in bed because women today, you know, they know\n\nSpeaker 2 (29:26.24)\nI guess I'm reading guys advice and they're just waiting until they find a man who is actually adept at these things and then when we're coming back disappointed we're like why are we wasting?\n\nI need a compatible partner and so if you don't want to go down or think or then I will just keep on waiting for my compatible partner and telling you that you're a selfish jerk.\n\nthey go into what the re- what they think that the main reasons are for the sex recession?\n\nIf they did unfortunately, I can't super explain it why but I do think that especially for that age group There's just a lot of like the 18 to 29 when there's a lot of like social isolation that happened during covid and there's a lot less Drinking there's a lot. There's a lot less going out with group of friends all those things that lead to\n\nThat was what I had heard is like lot of like millennial sexual experimentation like getting initiation was happening like somewhat fueled by alcohol or other drugs and so that's like kind of a positive thing that it's also I mean not that we like necessarily regret anything that we did that had like alcohol and associated with sex but I think that there was like room for a lot of stuff to go wrong and a lot of millennials experienced you\n\nSpeaker 2 (30:43.732)\nthings that were, you know, it just left a lot of room open for like things the next day where you're like, I don't know that that was like sexual assault or not, it felt icky, it felt like there wasn't really fully consent given because you can't fully give consent when you're intoxicated, so I have a lot of respect for Gen Z in that way, that maybe they are just like holding out for genuine connection and, you know, men that actually want to read their maxim advice columns.\n\nI have heard from people dating now that there's a feeling that because it's so easy to date and it's easy but it's hard because you know, like if you live in New York City, for example, you're on like five different dating apps. You have literally endless people you can meet that there is a feeling when they go out with people that's almost on both sides of like, they're like, well, we can find somebody else. We can find somebody better. And so if you at all don't have all the characteristics I'm looking for, then I'm going to keep\n\non searching and that there's almost like this part of like how to be a social human that was lost during COVID and like how to be in long-term relationships. And another piece of advice would be to move to a city because cities are the best.\n\nYeah, a lot easier to meet people and potentially meet people because I know some people are so sick of the apps, but that there is more potential opportunity to meet people other ways. Although, again, I don't know. I mean, I have heard various research things about kind of how people just are not. I don't want to say prioritizing relationships like people don't care about them as much anymore, but I think because it is so much work and it does feel like it's just like a part time job is what I've heard a lot of people describing it of like you have just that you're basically like a\n\nrecruiter trying to fill a position where you have like this overflow of applications and you're trying to like set search criteria that aren't like too tight that you're like screening out potential good candidates, but also not like so you have 500 applicants that you have to process and like spend all your time sifting through. So I do think that it's it's very real.\n\nSpeaker 1 (32:46.998)\nYeah, and that was mentioned in the article that somebody said dating became so exhausting that there were just better ways to fill my time. Like now instead I'm part of a bowling league. I volunteer on this night. I do all these different things. I do a running club because when I was going on dates, I was ultimately losing time that could have been spent doing enjoyable things where you should theoretically be able to meet a person through doing those other things. don't know. Actually, I personally love dating and when I met my partner,\n\nand realized that was the closest thing to my soulmate that I think is possible, I was like, but I'm gonna miss dating so much.\n\nI I do like to sometimes live vicariously through people who are still dating mostly because then it's like a fun little trip into somebody else's life instead of having to deal with that full-time, but it is just- and I do miss the like people watching aspect of it.\n\nIf you knew exactly like, within one year I will find somebody in XYZ so I can just have fun for three or four months, I don't know. I had the time of my life going to like happy hours.\n\nGo on a break or something. Open up your relationship, open up your marriage.\n\nSpeaker 2 (33:57.464)\nBut I think like one other thing is that it's also just like the existential and maybe this is like everybody's like total like decrease in sex and not just single people but it's also just like the general existential dread that exists all around us and I think there is a certain amount of like some of this comes from this like biological urge to like you know mate and reproduce and things and I think that so many of us even people who are in like a partnered relationship are like\n\nthat it kind of takes away some of that like biological drive a little bit because you're just like the world is on fire. So I have genuine questions about that. That one seems harder to research. Also another one that I came across just for sort of, and maybe this is more one for the orgasm gap, is hormonal birth control is another one. And in general, had somebody, a friend who's a therapist had said,\n\nones that that is like a common thing in heterosexual relationships is like obviously men's hormones affect their sex drive and things, but they don't have them on such a cyclical kind of thing. And so she was like it is very common for women to have natural hormonal fluctuations and that naturally your body like you have a higher sex drive closer to when you're ovulating, so you would have more like ups and downs versus like a male sex drive being kind of more like constant. And then in addition,\n\nif you're on hormonal birth control, which includes a lot of IUDs too, I know a lot of people I'm on are on IUDs, that it's basically disrupting that natural hormonal highs and lows and that it decreases overall some of the hormones that are associated with sex drive.\n\nAnd a little ad that I am receiving no actual ad money for is that I have not experienced that with the Marina the Marina has been fantastic in keeping all drives intact\n\nSpeaker 2 (35:59.214)\nYeah, I have the marina too. And it's hard for me to say sometimes because it's also hard, like I've been on a number of different birth control. I really did not enjoy being on oral contraceptives. I felt like I did notice that. a lot of quiet effects. And it's just very hard to remember to take them. like, that seems like not the best choice for most people, but it is often what is easiest to get a hold of, especially if you are young. But I've had like, nuvaring before. so I've been on different birth\n\ntaking a time\n\nSpeaker 1 (36:26.476)\nI used to always come out on the guy's peenies and that's just like, so weird when it does, like when it's like wrapped around, it scars you.\n\nso large that he's just suctioning out everything that's in there, okay?\n\nbefore my current relationship.\n\nNo, but I think that that is another... but it's hard for me to say that, for example, because I feel like there's been so many other factors that were changing that it's hard for me to isolate. And I know a few people... like I did have somebody who had such a terrible reaction to the birth control that she was on that she became extremely depressed and went off of it and immediately had a relief from symptoms. So I think sometimes it's also harder to tell if you are having a decrease in sex drive due to...\n\nthat, but if you have small kids is it because you have low energy because of your kids? Is it this? It's that? It's hard to... I mean obviously you can't do a science experiment so easily in your own life, and even if you did you have n equals one, so it would not be so accurate, but I think that there's... it's hard to sometimes like pull out for women or for people in general. Like there probably are specific things in your life, especially because I think women have more of that like drain of... since there's a lot of\n\nSpeaker 2 (37:44.048)\nshowing that women do the higher share of the household tasks, things like that, that that can obviously be something that affects your sex drive. So I think sometimes you get moms who are like doing more of like a, okay, like I'm just like participating in this because I know that this is like a thing that couples are supposed to do, but like honestly, I'm exhausted, my mind's in six other places, like I think with all the mental load that like those are some of the things that can contribute as well to like women.\n\nbeing more like going into a sexual encounter with just like I'm just gonna like get this done with so that I can like move on go to bed\n\nAnd that's supposed to be very cyclical that if you let that if you go into it with that happening where you're like, I'm having sex because I don't really want it but I'm just doing it because it's something that I should say Yes to and I'm not going to enjoy it then your body stops responding as much like the next subsequent time so even times where you were in a situation where you might have your body's now like no she told me in the past that I don't need to get all ready for this and I'm not super excited to\n\nhave sex with this person.\n\nYeah, that your mental association with it is more that especially then and then we're like gonna bring back in all of the cultural things that you have and like the religious upbringing where it is just more of like the wife's responsibility or we've talked about purity culture when you've been like raised in a situation your whole life where you've been told that sex is dirty and sex makes you impure, that you your brain doesn't just like move over so easily then to like sex is fun and everybody's pleasure matters and we do this because it's enjoy-\n\nSpeaker 2 (39:25.072)\nyour brain, like probably for a lot of people with conservative Christian upbringings, their brains are still struggling to make that switch over. So then when you have other environmental factors or you have men who are kind of fumbling around, not able to locate the clitoris or even the vagina, then you know, I think that you can definitely have, you can see where the situation comes from.\n\nYeah, I think that if you were raised in certain environments that telling somebody, hey, I need a little bit longer. like we're moving right into sex and this is gonna be done in X amount. Actually, then can you stay here for like five more minutes so I'm ready. Not to give minute amounts to it, but just the idea of taking time for yourself and feeling like you deserve to tell somebody else that they're gonna need to hold off.\n\nand wait a little bit or do a little bit more work for you to be ready. It's not something that I think comes naturally.\n\nto or like to be able to name what those things are that might be the steps that need to happen before you're even ready for like what would be more broadly considered foreplay like from from like if like your sexual knowledge comes from like watching porn or reading maxima or whatever like i think that for some women there are steps that would happen before that to even get you to the point where you would want like clitoral stimulation or something like that i think to know to ask for those or to be okay with like that being part of the steps because\n\nas much as we gave porn some props in this episode for like having you know maybe the woman come several times before we get to the man well not before we get to the man but before the man comes but like everything that's happening is still very like you know they like he comes in and delivers the pizza and within 30 seconds like she's got her top off and and you know like they're going down on each other and stuff like that\n\nSpeaker 1 (41:19.982)\nand he is so ready from having to it himself tonight.\n\nSo, she's just really enjoying that. So, that part less realistic. Do we... I was thinking, because you kind of like wound down into a conclusion before and then we recorded for like 15 more minutes. So, do you want to cut that out? And then re-record it here?\n\nyou\n\nSpeaker 1 (41:45.014)\nYes, that sounds good. Okay, so to tie up this episode, the orgasm gap exists. It's real. There's some big lack of education that happens that might be contributing to it. There's gender dynamics that might be contributing to it.\n\nIt just seems like it's so many factors that for everybody there are probably really different reasons. Like if you looked at, you know, six different people who were like experiencing that in their relationships, like you would probably come up with like six really different reasons as to why exactly they're experiencing it.\n\nYes, so the best thing that you can do to solve it is to listen to the Good Girls podcast and like and subscribe, obviously, but also to have open conversations with your partner to make sure that everybody's kind of up on what they can be doing.\n\nBe open-minded. Open channels of communication. Open-minded. Trying different things. Being well- I feel, like not having- if there is some kind of- if it's a relationship that has more, you know, kind of habitual nature to it. Being willing to kind of start in a different place. Move at a different speed. Try some different things. Get a diagram. Find out where the clitoris is located. If you-\n\nYeah.\n\nSpeaker 1 (43:08.846)\nKnowing where the clitoris\n\nEnergy spot, comment.\n\nYeah, tell us. Tell us about these G-spots and how they work for you and the very specific. Just give us a little math.\n\nand then write to Cosmo and thank them for teaching us about the G-spot.\n\nYeah, feel like I've seen like 19 of them mapped out sometimes and I'm like, I don't know. I really only know of one is on my clitoris. But I also want to celebrate because we have officially made it to episode eight and episode seven is where the pod fade happens and about half of podcasts don't get through.\n\nSpeaker 2 (43:44.686)\nHere we are. And not only are we here, but we have our own subreddit now.\n\ncall the Good Girls Forum and you know, it's four of us, but man, the four of us that are there are wonderful. join. It's engaging and it's a way that we usually use those conversations to think about different podcast topics and different things to think about on our already chosen podcast topics. So it's a nice way.\n\nEspecially when we post poll questions in some other subreddits apparently we're not allowed to do that so we want to\n\nNo one's got a hammer banning me from the sex Reddit for asking a question with no self promotion again, so I had to start my own for\n\nPlus I want to hear from our listener in Saudi Arabia. Tell us more.\n\nSpeaker 1 (44:26.67)\nYes, our Saudi Arabian listener. We're not trying to de-identify you, but you're very welcome to comment at any time. We would love to engage with you.\n\nJust like drop a casual post, like we won't out you or anything, but we do want to know more.\n\nYeah, we don't want you being tied up unless you want to be. Have a great day everybody. Thank you for listening.\n","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":8,"createdAt":"2025-09-09T13:09:13.876Z","updatedAt":"2025-11-19T16:42:59.481Z"},{"id":7,"title":"Exploring and Exploding Sex Myths","slug":"sex-myths","description":"Hello dear Good Girls listeners—yep, we’re the #41 sex podcast tearing up Saudi Arabia, and we’re about to blow your mind! Today, we’re ripping into sex myths. Think vaginas stretching to Grand Canyon proportions, semen that’s basically a prozac, and pineapples turning your downstairs into a tropical buffet. With unhinged tales, questionable “science,” and our signature cackle, we’re debunking the wildest bedroom rumors. So, put in those earbuds—especially if your father-in-law’s in the car—and let’s dive into this NSFW rollercoaster!","spotifyEmbedId":"4w7Y2L2wZ4i9rHk1YiU43J?","releaseDate":"September 2, 2025","duration":"43 minutes","topics":["Body changes","Sexual health","sex education","sex"],"transcript":"","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":7,"createdAt":"2025-09-02T11:39:08.890Z","updatedAt":"2025-09-03T01:18:48.201Z"},{"id":6,"title":"Sex Appeal: From the Field to Fantasy","slug":"sex-appeal","description":"Buckle up for a wild ride as we talk about what makes a guy go from \"meh\" to \"take me now\" faster than you can say \"nectar juices.\" Whether it’s a dude juggling a soccer ball, or making a cello moan in ways that’d make Yo-Yo Ma blush, we’re dissecting the activities that crank up the sexy. We dive into romance novel tropes, from Fourth Wing’s Xaden Riorson (leather pants, emotional baggage, and all) to Samson’s jawbone-wielding, loincloth-clad chaos (hottest biblical character??). Things get spicy as we roast unrealistic expectations—like communal vibrator drawers in a sports star’s bedroom (ew?)—and tackle the orgasm gap. Oh, and did you know Utah’s getting more nip-tucks than a Hollywood housewife? Blame the Proverbs 31 pressure to be a saintly MILF. Get ready for a savage, laugh-out-loud episode that’s equal parts thirst trap and social takedown!\n\nEpisode rating: 2/3 🍆🍆. R-rated content. Talking about sex with adult language and raunchy humor.\n","spotifyEmbedId":"4PclD8AVMXDfmtsGfLQSkD?","releaseDate":"August 28, 2025","duration":"44 minutes","topics":["Pleasure","pop culture","romance","romantasy","sex","sexuality"],"transcript":"Speaker 1 (00:15.146)\nOkay, this was my discussion question for people recently. I've been getting some entertaining answers. So imagine that you are just like interacting with a guy, you don't view him in any kind of particular sexual way, but then there is one thing that he does and he does it well, like one activity, one sport, and when he does it, then suddenly he is catapulted to\n\nthis man is very sexual and I'm very attracted to him in your eyes.\n\nWell, this is tricky because now I'm also trying to think about like what could a guy do on the fly that I would witness him seeing that and it's probably and this is gonna sound funny, but it's not even playing soccer.\n\nwas not a realistic scenario. It could be like him like performing maintenance on the space station or something. Like I don't want to limit you here to whatever genres of smut you're reading.\n\nIt's when a guy can like volley the soccer ball with his feet in a way that shows that he's extremely comfortable with it and he absolutely knows what he's doing. I always thought that was hot and there's just something by the way they do it, they play around with it, all that. But that's hot. Because the thing is, is that I also think that like hockey's hot, but you don't casually see a person playing hockey.\n\nSpeaker 1 (01:36.962)\ncan still count. didn't say that it had to occur under casual circumstances. Like, perhaps you followed him to his hockey game.\n\nYeah, I stalked and I sat there during the practice. If you've ever seen, I think you have Jenny Malkin on the Pittsburgh Penguins. And actually, let you know recently, and he has really grown into his features and he has a really hot life. But when he was like 20, 21, he was objectively like nobody would see him on the streets and be like, that guy is so hot. But the way that he played was so powerful and so strong.\n\nthat I beg, man, I want Malkin so badly. And this is like my 16 year old self, like slightly.\n\nSo, I mean, think thousands of women would agree with you on that one because there's this whole genre of hockey romance and we can get into this later, but hockey and men make men sexy.\n\nflow of the ice and they're fat and they're all bigger with their p...\n\nSpeaker 1 (02:32.654)\nAnd this is the point because I think that if you were just looking at pictures of athletes hockey players are not always the most attractive bunch And obviously there are exceptions versus something like I think there are a lot of\n\nis gonna come in and have to disagree with you.\n\nSorry.\n\nI'm really generalizing, but I'm just saying, like, I don't think, I think baseball players are another one in there, that there are some really hot baseball players, but it's not just, if you were just to show me a bunch of pictures, and I know because my husband likes to play this game with me, like if he's deciding on a fantasy draft or something, me knowing nothing about these sports, he'll just kind of say like, okay, like, would you choose player A or player B and he knows I will choose on hotness alone, so.\n\nI think there are sports and hockey is one of them where they're not necessarily the most attractive bunch, but they do look hot when they're playing versus like soccer. They look hot while they're playing. And I think that soccer players are just maybe this is just for my time living in South America, but I think that the soccer players are just objectively hot people also.\n\nSpeaker 2 (03:36.888)\nSo I was at a major league baseball game over the weekend and I was thinking about sports and sexuality and also just like gender differences and all that because I realized that the other week I was telling you that a guy in tight pants and one of like a book says like this guy was wearing tight leggings while you know practicing with swords. I'm like, wants somebody in tight leggings? And then I was sitting there and I a lot of different I was watching the baseball players warm up.\n\nPants on.\n\nwas like, man, their legs look so nice. And I felt, and then I also realized like I'm now mid thirties and our team has a lot of rookies. So I'm looking at guys in their younger twenties and I'm thinking like, you're behind looks really nice. And I'm like, my gosh, if a guy, if a guy was doing this to someone like over a decade younger than him and being like, man, she looks nice. I'd be like, you're a creep. Stop talking.\n\nobjectifying this powerful athlete. I don't know. I think that to balance the long-term scales of power, we should definitely spend more time objectifying than in Facebook.\n\nI was objectifying during warmups. I pondered about it. I had some guilt.\n\nSpeaker 1 (04:47.98)\nOnly during warmups by the game we were fully engaged in the athleticism.\n\ndistracted with my kids.\n\nThey don't need to know the details of why you were distracted. I think my answer is going to derail your... No, that was my husband's answer. And I just want to clarify that he was answering on behalf of what he thought that the answer would be for a woman. It wasn't like his answer about female athletes. It was his answer of what he thinks that a woman would be attracted to in men. And it was gymnast.\n\nHave you talked to a woman before?\n\nI'm like, again, this is like our holy gender norms kind of thing because actually if you watch male gymnasts, mean, they ripped. I mean, it does play into your they do wear leggings, sort of. They were like uni suits, but they're wearing very tight. But they are but yeah, it's like, why are we not attracted to the male gymnast like the pommel horse very sexual, they're very muscular, attractive.\n\nSpeaker 2 (05:39.598)\nIt's than leggings.\n\nSpeaker 2 (05:52.432)\nwho was like in the last USA gymnastics outside.\n\nWas that the glasses Rubik's Cube guy? That was the only one\n\nYo, come on. was not, you were, mean, like a phenomenon and we all loved him because of the same reason why women love men like that. think we all love like the quirky people. Yeah.\n\nI mean, sometimes I do like the quirky people. No, my answer, quirky people, this will derail your thesis a little bit, is not a sport. my first hint, I know, this is why, and we're gonna get into this episode. I'm finally reading, catching up on reading some of the like current romantic that everybody is reading. I'm just, I do not think that my tastes are,\n\nSo was objectively attractive.\n\nSpeaker 2 (06:20.544)\nnot surprising at all.\n\nSpeaker 1 (06:35.976)\nI don't want to be like one of those people who's like, I'm such a hipster. I'm not mainstream, yeah, but not doing it for me. So mine is, and this comes from-\n\nYou did not think that Zayden Ryerson is hot and if you're any woman who has come anywhere near a fourth ring you know that you want Zayden Ryerson just to rip you apart.\n\nyour point about looking at the baseball players, he's 23. Like he's a baby. And then they're like, he's like this smoldering man with complicated issues. I'm like, no, he's an emotional baby who like can't express any of his feelings or like have a conversation. then, yeah. And then he's 23. I'm like, give me a real man. But anyway, we will get back to that, so that you can hear my answer, which is I had\n\nthis and this is how I know is that I had this cello teacher in college and he was a very average looking person at best.\n\nI tried to get you to read a cello romantic book and I hope you...\n\nSpeaker 1 (07:36.974)\nYeah, I will go, but I will now I'm catching up on all the reading, so I will go read this. But he was just like very, like kind of gawky and a little bit nerdy looking. He had an accent, but it was a German accent. So it's kind of like he was just not somebody that you would look at him and be like, but then this man would play the cello. And this is not just me. This is every woman who ever saw him play the cello, because most of the music majors and minors that played cello were women.\n\nand he would start playing the cello and it was extremely sexual and everybody was like, all right, that guy, that guy fought.\n\nI feel like I need to watch that guy. I read a book where like the main guy character played the cello and he was very much so meant to be like extremely sexy and like totally controlled the cello and this drove me to YouTube to look up guys playing the cello and I was like, it's a string instrument. It's just not doing it for me. What about the\n\nI need video of him.\n\nSpeaker 1 (08:34.808)\nbeatboxing cellist. Have you ever seen him?\n\nNo, I'm gonna send the But that sounds like even.\n\nOkay, it's super dorky. I'm just saying, no, he is actually like an objectively attractive man. And he is like very in control of the instrument. I'm not saying that he'll do it for you. But I'm just saying I don't know, like a lot of the cellists that come to mind are like not like yo-yo ma, not objective.\n\nAnd that you were going to say something like that. That's why your husband, that's why your husband thought that like the gymnast would be, and I'm not insulting gymnast at large. There are a lot of individual gymnasts, but I would say that most women, if you were going to give a general answer, they're going to say things more like hockey, football, hockey, like these.\n\nWe would say footballs. I think men would say football. Men who are like, you could really get them to answer a question and remove their homophobia from the appaisum.\n\nSpeaker 2 (09:30.208)\nI think that any woman from New England who grew up with Tom Brady as a star? I don't know. No. No. He's just Tom.\n\nHe looks so botoxy, I don't Re-Blind Work, Bowie Fox episode. I'm not saying, there are some attractive football players. I'm just saying, football doesn't have, for me, the multiplicative element of when a guy is doing it well that he suddenly catapults a lot higher. Certainly anything where a man is athletic and handling himself well moves him up. And certainly there are just football players who are hot men, but.\n\nFor me, it's like not the quite level, but I mean, I would agree more about hockey, I think, and soccer.\n\nSo I always like to find a paper that kind of goes with what we see. And there's a paper by Harding in 2021, looked at 70 young British people, 33 young men, 37 young women. And what they found is that young men really manipulated and managed their sporting identities. Like they were very, very mindful of the way that sports and bodies were socially valued and rewarded.\n\nAnd one quote from it, just stay with me till the end because I think that this gets good. Greg says, people tend to say that you're good at football. You're quite popular because it makes you stand out. I was going to do this in British accent, but I felt like that would be painful.\n\nSpeaker 1 (10:56.431)\nI that's what your bridge is. said it, test it out. I will let you know.\n\nIt's something that everyone thinks is cool. Instead of being like good at dance, but people say football and remember that football is soccer here is like the male thing. So people are like, yeah, he must be hard because of that. Interviewer, does sport come into being popular for girls? Greg, I think no. It's more about looks for girls. If they want to be popular, then they're stuck in having to look a certain way.\n\nAnd then somebody, then they asked Leah about Greg and it talks about how Greg actually also does dance, but then does football as a way to even it out and balance so that he's still socially acceptable. So I thought that was kind of, you know, again, this is like a recent paper and it shows, and I know I came from a very high school that fit all the norms and the football guys were definitely cool. The cheerleaders were the hottest, all that. So yeah, fits for me. And.\n\nyou see those same elements kind of playing over to, done, done, romance to see my favorite area where the guys are always, you know, yeah. yeah. Is that a romance novels? mean, a whole series on different people on a football team, different people on a hockey team, baseball team. Like, yeah.\n\nRomance. That's what I'm saying. I keep stumbling across it when I'm just on the Libby app and I'm like, hmm, what should I read next? What titles are available right now? And what's the other one besides Libby? Hoopla has a lot of people who turn out romance novels kind of romance. And there is definitely a lot of hockey romance that is coming across my feed. So I'll maybe read one.\n\nSpeaker 2 (12:35.928)\nSo Megan Quinn had a series on hockey players that were all within one team and like all their individual romance stories. It was like, you know, one series within the same world. And what I loved about it, and Megan Quinn again, I love you, I keep on reading you, but like one of them had a pierced penis, one of them had a tattooed penis. I'm like, come on, this is not like the prevalence of this in men.\n\nplayed on hockey teams, please comment on the prevalence of peer...\n\nFirst penises. tattoos. And all of them have like a door of like vibrators for the women. And I'm like the amount of single men who would have a door full of like vibrators to please the women visitors to their house. there's no way that it's this prevalent. But every single book it'd be like.\n\nI could be playing my own vibrator anyway. I don't want from this like filthy hockey players drawer of used vibrators. Having smelled the men's locker room, I do not trust this hockey player to have properly cleaned and sanitized his communal vibrators.\n\nabout with like the pier scene it's like how do we who's I don't trust you oh my gosh have you ever like smelled a hockey equipment you're go you're smelling their hockey gloves which is really like the worst smell in the world even like my five-year-old because hockey glove just smells so bad sorry to talk about my five-year-old in middle of this conversation but now you're thinking about your they're like communal vibrators and you're just so anyways\n\nSpeaker 1 (13:45.672)\nWe're early.\n\nSpeaker 2 (14:11.426)\ncourse, a big thing and that brings us to, in my opinion, one of the hottest Romantic characters ever created by Rebecca Yaros in Fourth Wing and why Fourth Wing is such a big deal, Zayden Ryerson, who I don't think there would be any plot spoilers because I don't think that's the pace that SJ reads Romantic that she doesn't want to read at, but you don't think he's hot.\n\nsidebar.\n\nSpeaker 1 (14:38.478)\nOkay, so I wouldn't say that I don't think that he's hot. sounds, again, like he sounds physically hot, but I would not be like attracted to him beyond, like there are a lot of people that I look at and I'm like, that person is hot. Like I was watching Love Island the other day. There are a lot of men on that show that I'm like, that man is hot. I would not get into a relationship with any of them. If I was in a place in my life where I was like,\n\nhaving one night stands, then sure.\n\nYes, I suppose that that is probably fair. It's something about how I almost feel about like lacrosse players during college, where I thought that they were extremely attractive and cool, but I was not interested in them myself. But I think that part of that was that I just didn't really see a world where like they would be\n\never.\n\nsuper interested in me either is almost like a yeah you're like well i'm gonna be into you\n\nSpeaker 1 (15:44.706)\nto run onto Love Island, I also recognize that none of those men would be trying to pair up with me either. So I feel like it's just sort of, we're just operating in different spheres of like, they're in like a horror imaginary character land and I'm more in like normal people land where the qualities that I'm looking for, I realize don't make for a good romance novel. Or I would be into, I know that there are like the different tropes.\n\nhotter.\n\nSpeaker 2 (16:12.33)\na cello player and I a few times\n\nI read that book at- And the romance stuff, I feel like it's not the epic romantic type of stuff, but I realize that there's like whole romance genres that are like the friends to lovers trope. And I think that I find those more relatable because that sounds more like my current relationship. And I have a lot of friends that as you like read the various constructs for the friends to lovers or like those types of ones that they're more like small town, not like Hallmark movie, but you know, like something like,\n\nAnime's lover is hot.\n\nEnemies to lovers is hot, but I don't relate to it at all because who do you know? I mean, I know a lot of like, okay, so eliminate all the online dating people because that's, that doesn't play into romanticity. But like of all the other like tropes of how they start the relationship, I know plenty of people who are the friends to lovers. I do not know anybody who were enemies to lovers. And if I think at various points in my life, like the men that I've been like,\n\nthis man i hate this man under zero circumstances have i ever been like i hate him but i would totally suck him\n\nSpeaker 2 (17:19.406)\nMaybe because you were just not singing all the time. Maybe it eventually would have gotten there then you would have had like extremely hot sex with with them. I just- Maybe not. Yeah\n\nI did not respect, I hated them because I did not respect them. Like if I hated somebody, it's because I thought that they were like sleazy or, you know, there was something that I deeply did not respect about them. I mean, there's plenty of people that I just felt ambivalent about, but it's not ambivalent to lovers. It's enemies to lovers.\n\nYes, it's like in my 20s, I was in the hospital environment, know, there's physicians, you're like, they're all the time, everybody's on short sleep, there's super high stakes and all that.\n\nThis is much closer to the setup to fourth wing than my life ever was.\n\nGirl, I'm lot of sex in\n\nSpeaker 1 (18:07.712)\nA danger of a lot of high stakes.\n\nI was thinking about that with the gymnast thing that your husband suggested because there was this one physician who was a college gymnast who also cheated on his fiance frequently with different people in the house system. And it was always like, just go do flips off the pommel horse. Like, yeah, no, hate you. We see you for who you are. And I think...\n\nAlso, I'm going to say this, I think it's a reason why romanticies sometimes work so well for different women because there are some situations that like you said, if you're enemies with a guy, it's for a specific reason. But romanticie can create these insane different-\n\nsaying in her fourth wing that it's like, could tell from the beginning that it's like, there's like, he had something to do with this, like uprising. And it's like very obvious that like, you don't know all the details. And probably like, there's things that she doesn't know about. then the reason that she hates him will turn out to be like flipped on its head. I guess in that case, and I think like, it was partially that I don't just get as excited. I mean, it was still like a fun book to read. It is also just the like smoldering bad boy thing with all the, I'm just\n\nlike secretive sultry. it is very much so.\n\nSpeaker 1 (19:24.458)\nI love a man who can talk about his emotions, can be mature. I realize that this is not a good setup to like a romance book because there always has to be that thing where it's like, I'm attracted to you and you're attracted to me, but there is this, we're not in the capital R that we cannot be together. And then we'll have one night of passionate sex. And then we'll have to have some reason where there several chapters where we don't have sex because otherwise this would\n\nJust be Probably haven't gotten into the sex that involves shadows yet.\n\nNo, I read the whole book. I'm a cast reader.\n\nI didn't know that. Yeah. Isn't it weird that shadows can hold weight in that book?\n\nI I thought that that was kind of fun or like her whole like orgasms and lightning thing. I thought that that like added a fun supernatural element to it because one of my friends in my book club who is a very big fantasy reader, like the like fantasy, fantasy genre read it. And she was like, a lot of people's feedback in her fantasy book club that she's in was kind of like, it's like the romantic stuff. Like some of the series like this one are like.\n\nSpeaker 1 (20:28.226)\nfantasy for people who don't normally read the genre and for people who like read the genre a lot they're like some of the world-building was like math and the character development whatever\n\nAnd I didn't know that shadows could wield weight, but then I had asked my sister, and this was early on into my Romantic reading, and she's like, once you get into Romantic, like, this is not your first shadow wielder, this is not your first, like, mind sherry, it happens all the time, and it is common lore that for whatever reason shadows wield\n\nI did think the mind sharing thing like that made it kind of hot. thought that they were bringing their magical powers into sex because I have definitely read fantasy before that had a romantic element in it. Some of it is more sexually explicit, some of it not. I think some of it would qualify technically as romantic, but it's not part of the genre that you're reading. Then of course, I have read just regular romance books before, so I thought it was kind of fun how they had the...\n\nvarious elements in there and yeah I felt like it did it was a little formulae but like so is a lot of stuff and at the end of the day it was it was a quick read it was very enjoyable. Yeah exactly Freon Kindle unlimited and I enjoyed how quickly the time passed while I was reading it and like some of the things like I think I texted you right after I started because I like opened it to page one and like the map is just upside down Australia how lazy is this and you're like\n\nSpeaker 2 (21:44.782)\nI thought you were a little hard on the math.\n\nSpeaker 2 (21:51.918)\nThis a script.\n\nYou're like, I just want to point out that I do not think anybody is reading these books for the quality of the map writing. So, yeah, I mean, think I can enjoy it without being like, like, I would fuck this guy. But at the end of the day, one of my friends who had read it, she was also like, yeah, just not like a huge Zayden fan. She was like, you know, because I was like, I read it.\n\nI'm like, I'm marry him. I just want to have a fair with He didn't like it. Yeah.\n\nBut I'm saying like just his whole aesthetic. This is basically she just boiled it down to she's like, yeah Zayden wears skinny jeans She's like I'm like, oh they haven't really gotten into describing his clothes yet. And she's like, no, I'm not he doesn't like I mean, he wears leather pants a lot. So I guess I think\n\nI envision the leather pants at all.\n\nSpeaker 1 (22:35.758)\nYeah, I just like, know I saw when I was pulling it up that they were like, oh, being made into an Amazon series soon. And I'm like, this will be very interesting work for the costume director to not make him look like he is like the bad boy character in a Broadway musical where he's like prancing around in his little leather leggings, you know, to like make him look badass, but to also sort of fulfill this like description that we have of this man who's just like\n\nprancing around in leather all the time. yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure that they will do it well because I trust. And Michael B. Jordan's production company is. Oh, so I was like, hmm.\n\nBecause Zayden is supposed to be cool, awesome. So just to give you an idea of why Zayden, if you read Omenchus, he might be hotter. I found a nice description for you from Katie Wilde. I do like Katie Wilde, but this is from the Stoneheart Bride. So this is from, here he goes, and ready he made her, wet, so wet, so slippery she believed her body could offer no resistance. But her barbarian, and he is in fact an actual barbaric, heck, yacks.\n\nwas big indeed, big enough to make her cry out as his cock began a slow penetration, but it was his gentleness that made her scream as his sickness stretched her narrow sheath. And just some background on Katie Wilde, she tends to write, and I really appreciate her, but she tends to write very much so like somebody from the 1600s was writing like the dirtiest barbarians might you've ever heard.\n\nI mean, I appreciate when they do try to like give an aura of like, it's kind of old timey if that's like their world has kind of like old timey vibes, but it also makes me giggle.\n\nSpeaker 2 (24:19.31)\nHer guys always have like no clothes besides like a small little like leather loincloth and I like I like her story building enough that I go with it but I'm like, he can just wear pants and a shirt like I don't really know like the leather loincloth.\n\nThat just sounds uncomfortable for a lot of these athletic activities to not have any kind of like support or protection around there. But yeah.\n\nAnd before we left this topic, I wanted to ask you, speaking of men in history and literature, who is your, dun, dun, dun, dun, hottest biblical character? Oh. Jesus, this is off the table. We don't have to. I don't want to.\n\nSpeaker 1 (25:02.69)\nYeah, we don't want, I mean, although I do have to say that a lot of the portrayals of Jesus, I'm like, or there's always jokes about like the modern praise band music that they were like, if you just like took out Jesus and put in my boyfriend, that a lot of the music would really work that we like joke that there's the Jesus, my boyfriend music. Cause there's just a lot of like, you're amazing, you're wonderful, you are the best. You know, I don't know. It's just like.\n\nIt sounds like a teenager writing a song about their boyfriend if you just took out all the Jesus stuff. there are definitely some people who, and some of that Jesus art, know? People, he has this really ripped six pack and I'm sure he was an active person, he was probably, but some of those Jesuses, I'm like, there is a person here who has a bit of a Jesus fetish to be creating that art.\n\ngoing to like the crossfit.\n\nCrossFit Jesus is definitely a thing. We should talk more about this. Yeah, or I mean, then we could also have questions about like, why are there so many blonde blue eyed Jesuses? But that's a whole separate topic. I don't feel like I have one.\n\nI'm not gonna give me David.\n\nSpeaker 1 (26:21.614)\nOkay, good point, David. I'm gonna take that one. Yeah, he's like musical. He's definitely kind of slutty.\n\nI totally thought that you were going to pick David and that's why I picked mine, but I'll wait until you.\n\nI am. I that didn't occur to me. I think I was too distracted thinking of like, I was like, well, this one. No, no, no. Maybe I was a Jesus. Yeah, I mean, maybe I do have a Jesus fetish and I need to talk to somebody about it. Or, yeah, I guess he was. That's why I kept picture. was picturing New Testament and I feel like they're all like Paul, like wrote a lot of the New Testament and he has like very weird baggage around sex and basically just thought that the world was going to end.\n\nHoly Jesus that I took Jesus off the table for.\n\nSpeaker 1 (27:04.394)\nAnd that like sex was like, well, you can, if you need to have sex, like if you can't control yourself, then you can get married. But it would be ideal if you could just like remain celibate. So I feel like there were a lot of people in the New Testament who just had decidedly asexual vibes. So it's not really a turn on. So yeah, I think we would mind the Old Testament more. And then yeah, David's pretty good answer.\n\nSo I want to give Samson a moment. Sam's there. Definitely could be like a modern day romanticist hero. He's problematic. He's extremely muscular and big. He fits that light tree idea. And morally gray. So when\n\nThere's very easy sex scene tie-ins with all his run-ins with Trist with Delilah.\n\nYes, so his when his second wife was burned with her father, he killed 1000 men with the jawbone of a donkey. If that isn't screaming romantic hero, then you do not read romantic. There's no way that he's not wearing like just like a little leather loin cloth during all these activities. yeah, so you know, Delilah, Delilah, he had that.\n\nIs he wearing a very thin-\n\nSpeaker 2 (28:24.17)\nwith her and really she had just gotten silver coins. What I'm saying is that if he didn't die in the end, I actually think that he would be a great starter for like a modern day romance bug where all of sudden you would see a lot of like Samson fan art and all these different things because he fits all the criteria.\n\nsee the setup for a romanticie where you kind of like take that story and then like world build around it like a sort of old Hebrew adjacent.\n\nI think he was giving Delilah a good time. Yeah. That's what I She betrayed him, but still, probably giving a good time. And then I wanted to talk a little bit about how women are described differently just across the board from Romanticie to Bible to Romance novels to movies to books to TV shows, literally everything about how women are like actually.\n\nTalking about and to just like how people talk about their like kids and stuff too, like how they'll describe things differently or something. I mean obviously like less in a sexual context but still that like physical aspect of them. Yeah.\n\nassist a totally different set of expectations. And like for women, what I like is that there is a lot about how like we're supposed to be like soft, but then we can't be too soft. Yeah, like it's men who are supposed to be hard and muscular and women who are supposed to be soft, but we're supposed to be soft while also being like very split and small. yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1 (29:49.376)\nAnd I feel like also now with the modern ones, it's like, and maybe like with more historical things, it was just much more of like, the man is this like big strong man that rescues the woman. And then the woman is just like the damsel in distress. And now it's sometimes like the double weight of, of like where we are on one hand, like more that we're like, girls can be strong too. But there's then it's like, so now she has to be like small and slim and beautiful, but also strong and spunky.\n\nand like she can't overpower him but\n\nShe's not better than the guys.\n\ncan't get rescued by him. And I actually thought that that was like a very interesting in like this just being the most recent example of having read fourth wing and that on one hand, had like, the women are equal participants in this like military scenario. And there are a lot of women who are like, yeah, who are yeah, like Imogen is the one who's like training her on the mat and things like that. Her Riannon, is that her roommate's name?\n\nis or like her bestie is like is also like training her about things but then it's like the main character herself like that's her whole thing she's like so tiny and like for that little yeah\n\nSpeaker 2 (30:59.214)\nYes, and granted she has a disability. She has like the connective tissue disorder that that that Heather had. But it was given to the woman that none of the men who were in that area had, you know, an issue that was similar.\n\nYeah, exactly. it's like, so then, and like a lot of books, like on one hand, I thought it was kind of nice that they didn't then like cast her into the role that a lot of times there's like, the man is the warrior in this military kind of scenario. And then like, she is the healer and she is the peacemaker. So we did like that Rebecca Yaros like still made her be like that she has like this deadly power and things like that. And I think like, it is totally cool to talk about. didn't realize that she has she has Eryl D'Onollos. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize that she herself had it.\n\nThank\n\nThat's very interesting. so, yeah, I don't know. I thought that it was like, on one hand, it's good. And I've seen other examples of books like this, especially I think in Romanticie, where there's much more of like a setup for there to be a damsel in distress, where the women aren't damsels in distress anymore. But on the other hand, you can't, you don't see as much where it is just like the woman is like taller than the man, or that she just is like straight up.\n\nLiterally the only time I've seen it is Emily Henry. That is the only time I've seen it where the woman is the same height as the lead main character.\n\nSpeaker 1 (32:14.178)\nYeah, think she does a little bit like quirkier characters sometimes. Yes. Yeah.\n\nSo something tying back to that quote that talked about the barbarian lover from Katie Wilde. And sorry, Katie Wilde, but this is just like the main example. have other authors do this. Her books just do it the most, or maybe because she writes short stories, I've read them the most. Very often describes a guy going down to the girl and being like, her sweet nectar, her honey. I couldn't get enough of her nectar and her honey.\n\nBut.\n\nSpeaker 2 (32:44.566)\nAnd I want to put out there that if any woman who's a virgin or in their 20s is reading this, that your stuff might not taste like honey. That's totally not a right expectation. And I was thinking about this in a comedy show that I had seen when I was like 20 or so in Chicago at Second City. The second city that's in Chicago. And the guys were talking about what it's like to go down on a girl. And someone was like,\n\nIt's like making out with a basset hound and someone's like, it's like having a mouthful of nickels. And then another one's like licking a nine volt battery. And I was thinking on the other hand, like that was what I went into like my life thinking what was like. And that was like, my God, I don't want you to have your mouth full of nickels.\n\nYeah, I know that how I think they end up excelling all these like, flavor douches and things like that that do like terrible things to your like body chemistry, because you have women grow up and I think that was very again, like with my most of my sex ed coming from Cosmo. 90s, 2000s Cosmo what had a lot about your natural state down there is like a disgusting fish taco. And so what are things that you can guys are\n\nSo great and nice to be\n\nYeah, and you have to like apologize.\n\nSpeaker 2 (34:03.726)\nAnd then she would go into it with this weird like, oh, I don't want you down there. I was oh, I'm so sorry. Maybe we all should have just read Cady Wild and just thought like, please welcome yourself to home.\n\nyou to have that.\n\nSpeaker 1 (34:14.84)\nSweet nectar. Yeah, I mean, and I think that there are men that do enjoy like the natural flavor and then there are men who don't and there are women who enjoy receiving oral sex and there are women who don't enjoy receiving oral sex.\n\nIt's completely fine if you don't enjoy it, but I do wonder how much of it is like all those different things got so in your head that you're not able to like relax and chew. Yeah.\n\nboth. Because I was talking to actually, I was hanging out with two friends, both of whom do not enjoy receiving oral sex, which I was surprised about. like, I would say that they are both very like, not held down by, and I mean, I'm sure there's all these things on some level that maybe it's like influencing you and you don't even know. But I would say that they're both like very sexually comfortable kinds of people. Yeah. So I think it could be both either.\n\nI was reading about the orgasm gap. I wasn't planning on bringing this up today, but his orgasm always comes in so heavy. It's almost like just like a central little, maybe not central, it's like a side theme of the show that part of this is like some hope that among our 16 followers, we might like help somebody be like, oh, it is okay to want this, that we should have this and it is completely realistic for women to have an orgasm every time that we have sex, but not the...\n\nOrgasm gap.\n\nSpeaker 2 (35:38.67)\npenetration, but other ways. And about one fifth of women reported that they rarely, if ever, orgasmed with a partner. And that's kind of a lot. Yeah. we still have a lot of work to do to close it. not that nobody who doesn't, especially if they're finding other ways to get their enjoyment and all that. I'm not saying that going down is the answer, but I am wondering if those types of things. And again, that's kind of where, to me, romantically\n\nhelps where, you know, that gives you an unrealistic expectation of like what you're like. It does change this lens to being like,\n\nAnd you focussing it on die male nature. I feel like in the sex scenes in romance books, there is almost always like the woman does, she comes first, likes a book three times. That it is. I mean, I am a little just like impressed by the like rapid fire series of orgasms that people can have. But again, towards like setting high expectations for something that is very focused on female pleasure.\n\nthat yeah there's usually like three female orgasms before we even really get to men versus like if you watch porn and i'm thinking mostly male-centric porn because that's most of what's out there like it is all contributing to and leading up to i mean obviously like the man like the money shot is the end thing of it but so much of it is focused on\n\nCome shot. Yeah. Yeah. So I just kind of wanted to bring it together that there's some shared pressure on both men and women, men to be like this huge fighting stallion, know, like whether on the ice where they're massive and fast on the soccer field and, you know, this gigantic penis that's going to stretch out the women and all that. And then on women that were like, we're soccer.\n\nSpeaker 1 (37:32.12)\nRammer and\n\nNot too soft and... Yeah!\n\nExactly. So I think it puts unrealistic expectations on both, which is also, I mean, I think you can read and enjoy this stuff much in the same way like you're saying, like you can enjoy reading about Zayden without being like, I think that he would be a wonderful father to my children. That like that's what's enjoyable about fantasy and even romance that's not romantic is still fantasy. And yeah, it's just these very like, you're reading it for escapism from real life and it doesn't have to be any kind of\n\nreport out on what your actual tastes are because I think we've talked about that a lot of like you may really just enjoy I mean obviously a lot of people are enjoying these passages in the book with the guy that is like his dick is too big to get your two hands around and obviously that like\n\nI'm drawing this stuff around it. I'm always like, ugh.\n\nSpeaker 1 (38:23.342)\nBut maybe, but I mean, whoever's writing it, I mean, there, I think that there are people for whom you're like, oh, yes. And maybe it's because that is also what you enjoy in real life. Or I think maybe that that is just like part of this whole romantic, like, you can enjoy reading a book about this man who's emotionally unavailable, but she changes him and like for her, his tough exterior cracks. And I definitely know some women who go for that in real life. It doesn't usually like work out great.\n\nBut I also know a lot of women who are like, okay, I like to read that in a book. And in real life, they have a relationship with a man who is like much more in tune with his emotions and healthy and like less smoldering and less like something that Rebecca Yaros would write a book about. But like probably much more functional for day to day life. And that is nice, I think when we're able to enjoy our little romantic flights of fantasy and they can\n\noffer something beneficial to our boring day-to-day lives, such as maybe removing some of your stigma about enjoying oral sex.\n\nYes. And relevant update to end the episode is that my partner using Good Girl continues to not go well. Yep. I'm like, you need to pretend like you're someone else. Like, you need to put on, like, a different role. Because when you're just being you, then all of a you're like, huh, I want you to do this different thing and turn around in bed. If you just add Good Girl onto it, that's not it. That's just not it. anyways, we're getting you to work in.\n\nexample of a case that you've shown in your literature that doesn't pant. Just like, I don't think that if either of our husbands started wearing leather pants and just, you know, like going around wrestling other men, I don't know that that would really do anything for me or I would just be like really confused and uncomfortable. So, then no need gentlemen to go out shopping for it.\n\nSpeaker 2 (40:20.622)\nAll of a my husband started wearing two swords on his she's on his back.\n\nreal because like I knew a guy that was like you know the guys that like study Japanese because they're like really obsessed with like anime or samurais and this guy was like obsessed with samurai and he like wanted to be a samurai he was the least hot guy so we would talk about activities that catapult men into sexual icon status I think walking around wearing sword strap to your back in real life is would be like a real emotion that's that's a real quick pathway to ick but okay\n\nOne more thing to keep in if we have time. You can edit this out. So we were talking about body image and body positivity and like kind of all the talk about like keeping your, especially around like religious conversation and like keeping your body the way God made you or like where you draw that line about how much to change. And I was watching a\n\nlike a TikTok video or something, but he was going around asking people, which state has the highest rate of plastic surgery? Florida. That was everybody's answer. That was everybody's second answer.\n\nNew York.\n\nSpeaker 2 (41:37.23)\nDC? I have no idea. Utah.\n\nAnd then everybody in the comments was like the people who are like if you know you now they're like if you live in Utah they're like and again it's a very like religious like Mormon thing but it was so fascinating because it's like on one hand there's all this like like keep your body the way that God made it like God made you beautiful your body as a temple and yet in like some of the most\n\nwomen are underneath so much pressure. Yeah, they look good.\n\nBut when you get into more like fundamentalist or evangelical religions, then there is this pressure and we talked about it in that episode.\n\nfarm, amazing women, beautiful. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1 (42:12.558)\nYeah, exactly. Then it's like this whole tie up of like, you should be more just like, okay, like I was saying in that episode, like if you weren't born hot, then it's like, great, you just get to move on with your life and be something that doesn't require being hot. But no, there is just like this immense pressure and around that like whole, when people are tied up in the ideals of like the Proverbs 31 woman to like...\n\nbe generous, to be a good mom, but also to be like super hot and keep it tight and blah, blah. So anyway, when I heard that, I just really wanted to.\n\nThat's amazing for you. It's really interesting. guess amazing would be the wrong word, but it's interesting. I think once you say it, it's like, if they.\n\nAs soon as I heard it, was like, yeah, and I didn't watch the secret lives of Mormon wives, but this may be some summer binge watching that I go back and do.\n\nabout marinating then you might want to do it because it sounds kind of hot.\n\nSpeaker 1 (43:07.692)\nYeah, I will come back from that. So I think future episode where we talk about that show. But that's it for now.\n\nThank you so much for listening.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":6,"createdAt":"2025-08-28T19:00:27.021Z","updatedAt":"2025-08-28T19:25:00.350Z"},{"id":5,"title":"Body Talk: Boobs, Botox, and Balance","slug":"body-talk-boobs-botox-and-catholic-skirts","description":"Today, we compare our upbringing of diet culture and body policing with the beautifully body-positive Gen Z outfits seen today. We tear down the impossibly muscular \"tree guy\" ideal for men and embrace average sizes for…everything. We ask the hard questions like: Where do you draw the line between shaving your legs and getting Botox? How can Kay protest her unjust Judgement Under God in high school? \n\nIf you have ever been told your outfit is too distracting, tried to verify an anatomical impossibility from smut, or want to hear different sides of a Botox decision, this one's for you.","spotifyEmbedId":"3nPFUKflUjnWsE9EwqOtsy","releaseDate":"August 26, 2025","duration":"54 minutes","topics":[],"transcript":"So we're talking today. Boobs, Botox, Catholic skirts, everything. Body shame. Um, around our bodies. And, being brought up in the in the Christian church. And I feel like, um, this has come up a lot in our local news. And by local news, I mean, hyper local. Yeah. When you said local news, I thought that you meant, like, the Baltimore banner. Like big news stations. No, like, the only news I'm interested in are hyper local news. There's just been a lot of seven person chat. Yes, there has been a lot of talk about, uh, getting Botox, especially one of our friends whose, uh, sister is a dentist just started doing Botox out of her practice, which I guess is is the thing to do. So now we've all been talking. Should we have Botox party? Should Kay get Botox? So I feel like this has been the big question for you lately. I mean, not the that big question. There's like real shit happening in the world. But also should we get Botox? So when I was asked to attend a Botox party, like I think it was even just two years ago, I was like, I don't even get my eyebrows waxed. Like, I need to start at the very, very basics before I consider getting an injection. And then over the last year, I started getting those two big forehead wrinkles, and I felt like I'm in my mid thirties, like I'm not supposed to have these yet. And then what's actually kind of even more interesting is that I created this narrative in my mind that everybody else was already getting Botox, and I was going to be old and wrinkly in comparison to all of my friends who were obviously getting Botox, because it was just like the total commonplace thing to do. And I started like just looking at everybody's foreheads. Or is your forehead moving? Is your forehead not moving? I don't know. I had a forehead obsession. This is one of my core tenets of my beliefs is sometimes, you know, I don't really yearn for the olden days for a lot of reasons. But there is one thing that I'm like, back in the days of yore, it used to be either you were born hot and then you were just like the village hot girl. And like all of the local farmers wanted to marry you, and that was your thing. Or you were just, like, not hot. And then you could just go on with your life and, like, be known for something else or, you know, be a swamp witch. But there was no pressure. Now I feel like there are so many ways that you can change things about yourself that, um, you can't just, like, live into your swamp witch destiny if you are not born the village hot girl like you have to choose. Do I want to, like, make myself into that? Anyway? In like, so many ways to. And it's not just like, oh, do I be am I going to be a Kardashian or just, you know, yeah, completely do nothing. It's just this whole series of decisions. And we live in a world where we already have decision fatigue. Um, so then it's just like adding all these decisions on top of it and you're like, but does any of this matter? But yeah, like you're saying, I don't want to ever trivialize this of, like, anything that you or I chose not to do. Um, to be like I chose to do it as well. Yeah, yeah. And like, anything that, like, even if you or I didn't choose to do it, I feel like we're all, you know, making these choices. So anybody who chose to do something or didn't choose to do something, uh, that can. Yeah. Like, I don't have any judgment around that because none of us in this conversation have just, like, never modified our bodies in any way. Um, so it seems really hard to draw the line about where to be judgmental about others. Well, and that was the big talk between my husband and me, because it was one of the few times that we were in disagreement about something that involved me, and it was this issue of whether or not to Botox, because he's like, to me, you'd be so insecure if you wanted to do that, And that is not you. You are a confident woman. You're beautiful. You don't need that. You should age naturally. Your mom doesn't get it. She looks beautiful. Why do you want to do that? And it kind of. Kind of. I tried to quiz him with that a little bit, like, okay, if I should change nothing about me and be totally natural, should I also stop shaving my armpits? Should I also stop shaving my legs? Like, okay, I'm with you on this. Like no mascara. No, none of that. He said, well, that's not the same. And you know, I agree, injecting something into your face to to freeze muscles is the extreme of that. Uh, but it did just start different things like, okay, where do we draw the line? And my friend used to have, uh, a joke that was like, does she pass the the mousy Bob contest? But I don't want to say that in any way that puts down mousy bobs, but it was that if a person had kind of a very plain colored hair and it was in a bob, would she still be beautiful? And if she didn't pass that, then she's like, well, then she's not really, you know, that pretty. And I'm not saying that I fully agree with that at all. But this kind of concept of, there's so many things we can do to change our looks and create that picture that we are the hot girl that's in magazines and all that. But I don't know, again, where do you stop? I get I get highlights, I didn't get highlights for ten years. And then I saw one light gray hair and I was like, yep. It turns out that I'm the type of person who's not okay with that. And now I'm going to go do it. And I think people are beautiful when they keep their grays. It just wasn't me. Yeah, yeah, I think that's why I am glad that I've mostly kept my mouth shut about, if, you know, seeing somebody else who is a few years older than me, you know, get like a few years ago, obviously now is the age when a lot of our friends are getting Botox. But seeing somebody who is being confronted with those decisions of like, do I start dyeing my hair? Do I get Botox? I'm glad that I kept my mouth shut because, yeah, I think there were some things at the time that I'm like, I would never do that. Like I'm just gonna age naturally in the body that that God gave me, and. Yeah, then you can't say that. I think it's a lot like parenting. It's like before you have kids and you're like, oh, why don't those people keep their kids in line? You can't say that until you have had the experience and seen like, yeah, maybe you are the parent who has to leash your kid because it's a choice between that and like letting your kid run out in the road. So yeah, and I made my Botox decision. I went with, uh, plastic surgeon and one that was known for taking an extremely conservative approach. So if those of you have gotten it, she used twenty units, which is on like the extreme low end. So it made me feel like if it fades out and I don't like it anymore, then I don't have to do it again. Then it's gone. And if it turns out that, hey, it actually did make a difference. And I wasn't sitting there letting my two little wrinkles driving me nuts, then it was it's just something I like to do the same way as all the other things. Yeah. So going into, just like the expectations put on us in general and starting from a very, very long time ago. It's like, what, as maybe not a child, but even like as you went into adolescence, what expectations were put on us for, for looks and for how we're addressing ourselves and what we're doing for our appearance? Yeah. I mean, I think for girls it does start pretty young. And I'm sensitive to this now, having a daughter and hearing some of the things people say about like, oh, you know, on the internet, I don't know that I'm like super close to anybody who's all about, you know, sexualizing what little girls wear. But my daughter is seven and I just saw a video on the internet of this guy, you know, talking about how he would, like, never let his daughter wear a crop top, blah, blah, blah. And she loved my daughter, loves wearing, like, crop tops. She just got a two piece swimsuit and not in any kind of sexual way. She just really likes belly button. I don't know, she's just like, very fascinated with, like, having her belly button out and that's fun for me. But I definitely remember at her age that there was or I was, at least not in a context where people were pushing back against people who are like, oh, that little girl shouldn't wear that. You know, you can't, um, you can't, like, show off that part of your body because you're responsible for controlling men's gazes and that like putting the responsibility of the male gaze on girls to make sure that they don't, um, attract wandering eyes. Instead of teaching our boys, keep your eyes. Keep your hands to yourself. That starts at a very young age. And also, this kind of brings it back to plastic surgery. Uh, but what was interesting with how I grew up is that I had massive boobs like I had I think it was like quadruple D sometimes like a G, And I ended up getting a reduction. But with that and the expectations with how I was supposed to dress growing up, it was like nothing could overly show my boobs. Showing cleavage was very much linked with trashiness in the way that. Not that my mom was a very kind woman. She would never say trashy, but she would say, oh, you know, please cover up. This is showing a little bit too much. We need to find a different dress. It just created all sorts of issues where it was like to just dress. How other girls were dressing with my body was impossible with the standard comfortable, you know, just things that are cute, that are comfortable, that you enjoy wearing, that that responsibility is put back on you. If you can picture, like the Abercrombie and Fitch tank tops, that they all had, the built in bra that built in bra would cut off like a fourth of the way into my boobs, and it would just create like two different boobs. And then I'd have to wear a shirt over it. Like the best fashion trend that ever happened during high school for me was wearing a long sleeved shirt and then a tank top over it. That was briefly cool. That was like a a blessing for me. And what how I was expected to dress in my household and all that. So yeah, I went to high school, I went to three different high schools, so it was really a cultural buffet of the US. But I graduated from in the Bible Belt in Texas with a lot of conservative, Christian, evangelical Christian influence around there. But I definitely remember a lot of issues with, um, the dress code at my school. And I think that I was just coming from I was coming from Pittsburgh and just a very I don't know, anybody wore anything that they wanted to school. I don't think that there was a lot of policing around girls bodies and what they wore. And so moving from there to Texas, and it just didn't occur to me things of like wearing a sleeveless shirt. And I don't mean like a spaghetti strap shirt. Um, not oh my gosh. Not that slutty. Um, I mean, I think it's like, funny that it's like, oh, God forbid she was wearing. But I would wear, like, skirts. Um, I was just, like, in a phase where I like to wear high heels a lot. And there were a lot of comments from my peers as well as the teachers. But I remember going on a trip with the theater kids, um, and getting pulled aside, and we were driving through, like, West Texas out, I don't know, we were driving out to Lubbock or something. So it was freaking hot on the bus, and I was wearing the sleeveless shirt, like outside of school grounds and got pulled aside by my director, who was this older Texas woman, and she gave me a little talk, and I think she meant it in this very like, I'm gonna help mentor you a little bit, you know, of, like, teach you things that she's like. Yeah, like, she just meant so well, but she was so bothered by, um, that and that she was just so worried about how my shoulders, like the most sexual part of the body as the shoulders. I don't know if you know that they were like attracting boys and distracting them from. She's like, well, this is just makes it hard for the boys because it distracts them from what they need to be able to do. And also I was like, lady, this is theater. These boys are all gay. They are. They might not know it yet, but they are all gay. Um, oh. I think like one of them turned out to be straight, but yeah, but again, it it wasn't like it was not talk on the bus. None of the guys in the bus were like, man, check out XJS. Yeah. Guns. Look at look at the shoulders on that. Yeah. I'm like, it's not even like yeah. It's not even I don't know. Yeah. The shoulders, it's just but you know I and I remember getting talked to in class a few times again for wearing sleeveless shirts and they're like, oh, you know, somebody sitting behind you and he's trying to work on his test. And I'm like, if this is keeping this young man from being able to complete his English essay, that a girl in front of him, you can see her shoulders. Where, where has his upbringing gone wrong. That's. I have a distinct memory that I was reaching up in my locker to put books away, and I had to roll my Catholic skirt. It wasn't even long. I just had to roll it because the waist was too big otherwise. And a teacher came up behind me and squeezed my stomach like, right above it. And it was like my bare skin. I mean, it was a female teacher that. But, uh, she's like, why can't I see this? Why do we have a ruffled skirt? And then I ended up getting a judgment under, God, a jug, uh, which that's a thing. Yeah. Oh. They're real. Yeah. Yeah. I had to, uh, go and, like, lick envelopes in the alumni office for an hour after school. Do you feel like that was a sufficient lesson to teach you not to be slutty? I don't even know what I could do with that skirt. I think that afterwards I had to start, like, using, uh, safety pins to keep the waistband. I mean, it wasn't like the rule was how many inches above the knee, and it wasn't. It was the right level above the knee. I just had to roll it. And rolling was against the rules. Oh, yeah. Wow. It's so interesting to me that, um, in a in the US anyway. And I think there's a particularly puritanical strain of Christianity in the US. And so it feels very different sometimes when you go to other parts of the world. I mean, their, their, their Christianity, their religion has its own baggage, but particularly here around, um, sexual shame and, um, the body being impure is a challenging one for me. And you just see so much of that roots of, of so many of the groups that came here, came from those more puritanical or like the earlier, um, you know, Europeans that came here and brought Christianity, um, brought that with them. Um, because I think if you if you look at the earliest Christianity, it's such an embodied religion, like there's so much about it being part of the body. Um, so it's not just like you see it in a lot of religions. And there was like a discussion, um, debate in early Christianity between the Gnostics who later kind of got kicked out of the mainstream because they had this idea of the duality between the physical and the spiritual and like, felt like they were separate. And, um, that is where kind of like Christian doctrine came out with this, like Jesus being truly God and truly human, or they talk about like the resurrection of the body, that it's not just like this spiritual rebirth, but they talk about like bodily rebirth. And I think there's so much that's like important and embodied about Christianity that of all of the places, for us to have the locus of this very like your body is shameful, like you just kind of want to, you know, like not think about it too much, not not explore it, not touch it, not revel in it is like very counter to kind of especially what the early church was about. But I mean, even beyond that, that they would debate about what the role of the body was and what we, if our bodies are us or if we're inhabiting our bodies and continued to kind of come the image of the Most High God. Yes. Yes, exactly. That it is like, yeah, you are. And that like Jesus, like came in the flesh, um, to be among. So I just find that so interesting. Um, that. Yeah. And that we've come down on this side. But I think a lot of it comes down to like patriarchy, because there is such a difference between how men's and women's bodies are perceived and what we do in them. I mean, a lot of it is about like control of women's bodies. The boys were definitely getting yelled at right along with us. We just didn't know about it. You know, like, your pants are so tight. How are the girls supposed to concentrate when they can look at your tush and all that? They were probably getting it too embarrassed to show us. We can see your bulge. Concerned that this was happening. And I'm like, what a unique place. There's like lots of men wearing leggings, like frolicking around. And the ladies are like fainting because the men are wearing, like, Shakespearean leggings. And it's just like the little codpiece and you're like, I cannot study with your codpiece right in front of my face. I didn't even think of it being leggings. I was thinking of like the khakis. And all the kids at my high school had to wear, uh, just a little too tight. And then there's also just the whole piece for. I just wanted to make sure that I called out that, you know, the men obviously have some piece in bearing the shame of their clothing, too, which is not a thing, but I will get to them next in also just what we feel about and what we're told growing up about, like the size of our bodies and the shapes and what they're supposed to be. I know that, you know, I went on Atkins when I was like eight. In eighth grade as a family thing. And again, super supportive, sweet family. I think that was really somewhat the norm around that. Not Atkins per se, but the idea of like diet culture and making sure that everybody's watching their calories and all that and having that happen when you're a girl in high school, and that's how it times out. That was ridiculous. Yeah, I definitely learned about diet culture from my mom from the very beginning, and that was always kind of a concern. And, um, something I talked to friends a lot about now is taking, eating and exercising away from this diet culture and obsession with thinness. And just like exercising because you enjoy it, because it makes your body feel good. And I just remember so much of it growing up. That exercise was a punishment for eating things that you shouldn't have eaten. Um, and food is this just like moment on the lips forever on the hips kind of mentality? Or like, does that taste as good as skinny feels? Kind of thing? I don't know, my mom didn't say those things exactly, but especially not to us. Like, I think that she. She was trying to shield us, but she was saying those things to herself and was consuming the media that was saying those things to her. And, um, so yeah, it's like you pick up on it and it really made me hyper aware of how I talk to my kids about that, not just not commenting about their bodies, but also not commenting about my body or, you know, how I look like, oh, this makes me look fat in saying something like that in front of my kids. But I also guess, like, you know, like people are like, oh, I do this. I try to do this for my kids. Like, you should do that for yourself too, of like, well, this look makes me look fat or whatever. Yeah. Don't don't say that to yourself. Who cares? You look awesome. No, the the turn towards seeing exercise is something that makes me feel great. Feel energetic, feel strong versus using it as a way very focused on calories. How many calories am I burning? Am I in a caloric deficit has been so amazing. It's been such an awesome way to kind of reenter the working out world and all that, compared to how it was during high school and college, where it was very much so running to stay skinny, wanting to stay, you know, within a certain size range, all that. Yeah. Yeah. My mom did Weight Watchers a lot, so that was usually the ones. And just like, yeah, thinking of food and this kind of scoring system and um, yeah, it was I mean, not that it took all the joy out because it wasn't around all the time. My dad was a big Atkins diet, like yo yo diet kind of person of either being like full blown Atkins or, um, not on anything. And then just like bingeing on food basically, because, um, that the diets were so restrictive, like, I think that was I saw a lot of the. Yeah, like 90s 90s diet culture. Um, but it was interesting kind of seeing the difference between parents or just seeing how that that kind of appears different in genders because, yeah, with the, the skinny culture, I think there's so much pressure on women to be small and not just like skinny, but also just to take up as little space as possible. Um, and then for men. Yeah, not not to be fat, but to take up space, and certainly not especially now, I think there that you see the toxic, uh, the toxic effect of patriarchy on men is that it can be just as toxic. And it's not usually to be skinny, but all this thing you know about being, like, very muscular, about having a high muscle mass, all that stuff is also you see some really destructive things for men's bodies, but it affects them. Every single smut book, like literally every single romance novel, the guys always like some tall, lumbering tree. Like, there's so many times I've literally seen seeing the word tree described as like these huge men who are, you know, six foot five plus and also super muscular. And it doesn't matter what else about the guy is described, like if they're like a nerdy CEO of a finance company, they rock climb, they're somehow still like six foot seven, packed with muscle and all that. So I will fully give it to the guys that they're under. Yeah, we had a more like feminist smart writing now. Like, where is our like, smut? Like shout outs to the short Kings and the medium Kings? Come on Emily Henry, shout out to Emily Henry. She is one of the few authors who I have seen the guy character be like the same height as the girl character and described as not having, you know, huge or muscular arms. Just nice arms. And I'm like, oh, you mean like a normal human guy? The one that, like most of us are going to encounter and fall in love with and all those things, like, we're not going to find these like, people who are hyping up, like the kinds of things that regular people get attracted to in relationship. Yeah. I mean, not that I mean, yeah, not that I'm not like that. I'm like, oh yeah, tall guys like gross. But yeah, guys can be great. So can just like normal height guys, the same height as my partner. And I actually feel like I really like that. Like it just feel like I don't want that feeling of, like I can be this little, you know, delicate flower that he can scoop up and throw over his shoulder. I like the sense of kind of, um, I mean, I think he's probably stronger than me, but, like, I don't know, we haven't we haven't, like, battled it out. Yeah. Bench pressed each other yet, but I don't know I think that there has. Why is there not more smut for the women who like get off on like the sense of, like equal power dynamics. That's sexy for me. That and I know that. I know that we've talked about this before, so I hope it's okay to bring it up in the middle of a, of a, an episode when you, as a listener might not have been expecting it, but we have talked about these ridiculous expectations about guys penis size. And I almost texted you last night, but I knew that you were out, and so I didn't want to scar you with what I was about to share. But I was reading an extremely popular romance novel like it had, you know, hundreds of thousands of reads, New York Times bestseller. So this is a really popular one. And the guy's penis was described as when she was going down on him. She had both fists stacked and him fully in her throat, going as deep as she could go. And there were still about three inches in between where her hands were and where her mouth was. And I was like, what is this? Like, we don't this this, dear author, we don't want this. Like I am shuddering a little for like the standard size vagina is not designed to uh. And there are I mean, yeah, I mean, there's probably I'm just imagining if you were, like a nineteen year old, maybe I don't know what the percentage of virgins among nineteen year olds. But if you're a slightly younger woman and you're reading this book the same way as we used to read Cosmo and they're like, oh, that's what I'm looking for in a guy. I gotta basically. And then she goes and like, experiences this and she's like, one hand, two hand. Wait, what? I'm there. Oh, what is wrong with this guy? Is this a micropenis? It's like, how small are her hands? Like, it's just like building up these ridiculous expectations on either side because it's like, is she a baby? Like, why are her hands so small? Why can't she fit more dick in her mouth? Like we're supposed to be these, like, small, tiny, skinny things. And then guys are supposed to be these, like, huge, lumbering things. And just both of us. You know, when you look at the surgery and it's obviously more popular among men, but to literally lengthen your legs, you can add inches on and it's like extremely expensive. And you go through years of therapy and painful. But it is a thing, you know, like talking to a friend who's single. And she is. She's on the taller side and is just like. I mean, there's so many fish in the sea that she's basically like, this is a quick way for me to she's like, I'm not interested in a guy who's shorter than me. She's on the taller side. That to me it's like, I'm five foot two. I don't need some like six. Fair enough. But it is like, she is like, I'm one of those people who's just like, my search criteria is like, I'm not going to look at anybody shorter than six foot. She's like six foot means, you know, five ten and I'm five eight. And she's like, I don't want anybody shorter than her. I think that she is. I mean, I'm not, I'm not. Especially because it's like, how else do you got, you know, you you come in, you start swiping. There's so many people you have to have just some preliminary search criteria. Otherwise you're going to get yeah total exhaustion flipping through. So I don't blame her. Um I don't blame any individual. And at the same time, I think there is sometimes some of this like, yeah, it's hurting men and women. Um, and I think some of the stuff of the ways that it hurts men is really evident right now in our culture. Whereas like it's been evident for women for a long time. So, I don't know, maybe it's just interesting to talk about because the thing of like, oh yeah, diet culture is really harmful to women. Like, we're all trying to waste away so that we can be little skinny waists over there with their penis. Enlargers. Yeah. Like doing like fractures in their legs to try to stretch them out like that. That's, uh, that Ron DeSantis is wearing high heels. You know, we have to look out for these people. Men will do anything before go to therapy. Ron DeSantis looking at you. I will say that things seem to be shifting, and I'm curious about how this will play out over the next generations for both women and men. And I think that we see this in even like when I see younger high school women dressed, I see a lot more girls who, you know, have some extra weight on them. It looks adorable. I'm not. And they're much more likely to be okay showing their stomachs, showing ripped jeans, wearing things. I love this. Yes. I'm just so happy for them. Yes. Thank you for bringing this up. And, um, we look great. Yeah, they look great. And we had a, like, block party the other day. We live in a pretty young neighborhood, so a lot of our neighbors are Gen Z, and. Yeah, like my my neighbors were just wearing, like, cropped any, any type of body that they had. They were wearing crop tops, short shorts. And they looked cute. They looked happy. They looked like they were wearing what they wanted to wear. And it just it did feel like we were coming around because it felt like so the opposite of I remember growing up and my mom had like a lot of those fashion rules. It makes me think of, oh, what's the state? What not to wear. And my mom was very what not to wear. I mean, and like from a whole like social context of what not to wear. Um, because my grandma would be like, oh, you know, no white after Labor Day, blah, blah, blah, but a lot of this, like no mini skirts after forty, no bikini bathing suit after you've had kids. And there were just all these unspoken, but maybe your mom would tell them to rules about who had bodies that were allowed to wear different things. And it's like it still affects women well into adulthood of yeah, I was talking to her the other day and she said, you know, this was kind of like a thing for her that she got a dress and she's like, but don't worry, the skirt's not too short because like, I would never do that to anybody. And I'm like, do that to other people. But but yeah, she was like it would be like, oh my gosh. Yeah. She has legs that are bigger than some other people's legs. Like the horror shield your eyes. But to be, you know, a fully grown woman and still feel like there are these rules that are governing, like how long your skirt has to be to cover your legs. I'm just so happy when it, like, took me a long time to unlearn that and be like, oh, I can wear this thing even if I don't have, you know, whatever perfect body type to show it off. Um, I'm like, these girls are like twenty three, and they've already figured that shit out. Like, good for them. That's you know, what's interesting is that we have kind of a constant, which is that I'm from a big family, and so I have a sister who's eighteen years old, and it's been interesting because she's worn things that I wasn't able to leave the house in or and when I look at my mom and I'm like, you're letting her wear that? She's like, she looks great and she feels great, and she takes pictures and she's confident in them. And so it's like even her perspective has changed over time, maybe just looking at everybody else. But I think it's it's awesome, especially as long as they feel good wearing it and all that. And I think for again for guys as well, when I look at, you know, Timothy I think that's how you pronounce it. Is that it. He's not who would be a big hot star, you know, ten or fifteen years ago. That. Yeah. He is like this hulking tree guy that, like, the smut writers are writing about. Yeah, nobody's reading about a slim person with a very, uh. You know, his jawline is kind of more feminine. Like, his features are very delicate. Yeah, delicate. He's a delicate little prince. And girls love him. You know, posters of him, everything. My sister totally screams for him. Not screams. But, you know, it's very excited about the idea of him. And I just kind of hope that continues playing out. Not him in particular. Timothy. You're wonderful. I think you have a great personality. You're probably not my type, but but just in general, just guys that are there's not just one way. And it's not just like this huge, muscular tree of a man with his, you know, dick that could impale you just out to get you. Yeah, yeah. Timothy, who knows what your size is? I'm not going to comment on that at all. I didn't even mean to bring it up, but I mean, yeah, we wondered. Yeah, but still more slender. Zendaya, if you want to report back, let us know. Oh my gosh, you were so behind in your gossip that is a different person. She is not with Timothee. I know, but I don't know who he's with now so I'm assuming she's still in Kardashian. Oh why is everybody with a Kardashian. That's true I didn't know I knew they weren't together but I didn't know who he was with now, so forgot to Google. You didn't warn me to google Timothee Chalamet before this episode wasn't on the outline. So now that we've talked about this kind of really nice rise in body positivity, I want to talk about this conflict that's there between owning your body, being really happy about it, being happy about how you look, where you are, and the kind of natural desire that all of us feel towards self-improvement. And that looks like a lot of different things. It can look like getting our hair done. It can look like getting your eyelashes done, your eyebrows. In my case, getting getting Botox is twenty units. like, how do we kind of balance those two things working out? You know, everything really that we do just to feel good in our skin. Yeah. You know, that is one that I think I always feel really challenged about. Um, one of the first things that makes me think about it is like the money or the time, you know, because the value of the time that you spend on it. And I think sometimes where I get kind of tripped up is like, oh, well, you know, if I spent that time doing something mean, I don't know. Also, I think you get a little bit steeped in this working in the nonprofit sector or, you know, like other kind of, you know, human focused sectors like the one you work in where it's kind of like, well, you know, if you didn't spend an hour a week getting your nails done, like, imagine what you could do with that time. And if you didn't spend a couple hundred dollars getting this, you could. I mean, yeah, there's like all hundred and fifty for Botox. Yeah. There's all these things happening. And so like my first reaction that is just from this like starving nonprofit barely eking along. Kind of mentality is like, why would you spend money on this when there are. You know, so many important social causes that you could support. But then. It feels so hypocritical to just be so black and white about it like that because. We're all spending. I mean, I'm not living like a monk, you know, just like. Eating some canned beans and then, like, living in a little hovel and then giving all of the money back to the poor. Like I'm not Mother Teresa. I'm spending money on things for myself. Um, so, like, while that's sometimes my instinct when I look at paying for some of these things, I'm also like, uh, I mean, I spend money on myself. Why not? Something that. Yeah, makes you money. And it is not more stuff like adding to, like, piles of stuff that we don't need. You know, that's funny, because I actually thought that you were going to take that in a different direction, and it was where my mind was at. that? Am I going? It was at that. Sometimes I feel like, okay, if I'm going to take the time to get my nails done, or if I get the time to get my eyebrows done, you know what's going to make me feel good and what's going to look good when I go and talk to people that I'm going to be feeling. And it's things like running and working out regularly and, and all that. Because to me that's just has made the biggest difference in terms of even though like my body measurements have probably not actually changed, but in terms of how I feel, you know, walking around, going to the pool and all that, I feel strong, I feel energetic. But again, just the same, as you said, that doesn't mean I still don't have time to do things for myself that are otherwise. And including getting getting my hair done, getting my highlights done. Uh, a funny thing is that actually my husband cut my hair for about five years after twenty twenty. Yeah, and we started cutting our own hair in twenty twenty, and then we just kept on going with it. He really got into a rhythm. Very nice straight hand End. And then finally one of my friends who is a hairstylist we work out with her, was like, can you just please come in? Like, I would really, really appreciate it if you stopped having your husband cut your hair. And I but I feel like now you have, like, banked all of that goodwill of, like, all that money that you didn't spend for those years on your haircuts and all that time that you didn't spend that. Now you can, um, you can have that as extra. So if you're feeling like, ah, do I deserve this? Can I spend the time on this? You can, like, pull a little bit out of your reserve of all that, that money and time that you saved? It's funny because my husband was the same. He made me do his haircuts for years. Not that I was like that excited about doing it, but I think he was going to Supercuts and getting the like fifteen dollars haircut and they would do a terrible job. So I was like, well, I, I could do that. Like, yeah, YouTube video, pair of clippers. It didn't look great. But you know, if you're just doing like a half inch all around or whatever, um, and I think that was a real feat that I finally convinced him. Like you're an adult with a job, you can spend money. Um, you know, and go to a real barber that's going to give you a haircut that makes you look like a grown ass adult. And that was a really big thing. He actually started going with his friends first. Um, and they would all go to the one downtown where, you know, they have, like, the bar there and stuff. Lovely. Yeah. So happy for him. I was like, you are finally discovering the thing that women have known for the longest time, which is that it can also be like your relaxation time, your social time with your friends, like women all going to the, uh, you know, to the nail salon together or something, that he started doing this with his friends. And I'm just happy for men whenever they discover these again, like kind of letting you get past like, patriarchy being like, real men get haircuts by themselves and, like, don't socialize and talk to their friends to get past them being like, good together. Yeah, getting your haircut with your friends is a super fun thing to do. Um, so I just cheer for men every time I invite my partner, who just shaves his head bald every few months and then lets it grow out and then shaves it bald again because it's always extremely alarming when it shaves. I would love for him to be your husband's style mentor, because I feel like I want him to pass on all of the great wisdom that I have given to him. It's yeah, there's like the time and the money thing. But then again, there is also just the like the feminist thing too, of I think sometimes there are like anti-feminist or non-feminist people on the Christian side who still kind of do the whole like, oh, you know, but this is the body that God gave you, so why are you modifying it? But that feels very much like the Botox argument that you were having with your husband that's like, well, these things are fine, because usually those women are still like doing their nails, you know, highlighting their hair. But like, the Lord hath drawn the line when it comes to boob jobs or whatever, you know. Um, so like that one particularly feels Hypocritical. Um. But then on the flip side, you know, I think sometimes there will be, like, feminist arguments and those I can kind of like I agree with the thought behind them more, but it's like, why are we shaving our legs? Like we're just doing it for the patriarchy because, you know, men and razor companies have told us that we have to have these hairless dolphin bodies. Um, but at the same time, then I'm just like I did try not shaving it for a while and being like, I'm not doing this for any man. And then I was like, I, I just honestly don't like body hair on any for you. I that's I didn't feel like anybody was telling me I had forehead wrinkles, but they were the two little, you know, they call it the elevens. I learned that term after I got them because they were staring at me and they were bothering me so much. Every single zoom call I was on and, you know, I did. I did it for me. I did it because it was primarily bothering me. I also have short eyelashes, but for whatever reason, I have no interest in getting the eyelash extensions that that are also popular and other people get them and they like them, and it's what they notice and it's what they do to feel better. So it's just interesting. We kind of all have our own little suite of things that we do to feel good in our own skin. I guess it is. Yeah. It's coming. I think that's a good way to, like, have it kind of come down to of like knowing that you're doing it for yourself. And it's hard to recognize what that is, because I feel like a lot of the things that I'm doing for myself on some level, that what I want for myself is probably informed by pop culture, you know, magazines I read growing up what I think that like other people that I'm close to think of as beauty. Um, but then sometimes I'm so exhausted analyzing that and yeah, like around the Botox conversation or, you know, things like that, like, you know, sometimes I'm just like, it's let's just do it if you feel like doing it. You know, I'm like, I'm a chronic overthinker. So then I'm finding myself doing all this overthinking. And sometimes I'm just like, just, just do it. Well, what's funny is at first I thought, okay, if I get Botox, like I kind of want to keep it a secret, I'm kind of going to be embarrassed. I don't think I'm gonna tell anybody. But then instead, I was so curious about it and I felt very like, okay, this is why I'm feeling it. It's nothing shameful about it. And so, as you know, I started asking as many people as possible, like, what do you think about Botox? I'm kind of interested in getting it. Do you have any opinions? And that's where I learned that in my head, every single person had gotten Botox, and it was totally a standard thing. And that was actually just a narrative that I had created. And actually people were like, ah, yeah, I have wrinkles right here. They kind of bother me. But for now I'm holding off and it's just nothing you have an urge to do. Yeah. Not anti not pro just. Yeah. And like then there are people that you're like oh she has beautiful skin. She must Botox. I was so interesting hearing you asking people about this because then some people that you're like, oh she has flawless skin. It's like nope. She was just, you know, genetics or like really good skincare routine or whatever about wearing sunscreen. Yeah. And then, you know, I think it just kind of, like, surprises you. So as with other things, just destigmatizing it and talking about it makes it so interesting and helps us to make decisions that are right for us. I think that was like really helpful hearing you talk to people about that and it being a more open conversation made it that I could learn things like, okay, here's what you should know. You know, twenty to fifty units is going to make a big difference. If it's your first time and you're not sure about it, then you want to go to this person because otherwise somebody you know, if you do go to somebody who's more like, they just have access to it and they're a friend, then maybe they're going to give you double the amount than you actually want right now. And that's going to look like what I was going to say. Like you were saying that, you know, everybody has kind of like their own threshold about what they look in the mirror and like, bothers them. Um, but mine being not from you were like Irish ancestry or something. Mine being from sort of like Mediterranean looking with like, the light skin. And the dark hair is body hair. And I feel like that has been like such a pervasive thing. And again, like, it's just like you don't want to talk about it either. So you're like doing all these things. And I was definitely like doing things to deal with it from a pretty young age because my mom, like never did anything about it or said anything. Literally. Never forget this kid telling me that I had a happy trail when I was in like eighth grade. Yeah, exactly. And I remember, like, one girl in my school, like, the guys called her Gorilla Arms because she had, like, visible arm hair. And I think that that's when that girls get teased about. So I'm sensitive about that for my daughter because she is my coloring too. So like when you have that light skin and dark hair, it is apparent that you have body hair even before you go through puberty. Um, so I feel like I was just like trying all of these things, but the same thing as, like, you know, when girls are, like, going out and, like, trying to figure out, like, birth control or tampons or whatever with no direction from a trusted adult, like I was just out there. I mean, it was a wild time of experimentation for all of us. I feel like we were all figuring out makeup on our own too. And now they have like YouTube videos. So just really happy for today's youth. Um, but I was kind of, you know, like trying different things to, to deal with that and like, trying to figure out my thick eyebrows in an era when, um, thick eyebrows were not a thing. Like, that's just like, that's been my own personal one. And then. Yeah, like to get waxed in the down there area. Yeah. And like, it's painful. Like, you do the things like laser hair removal that are more expensive but will last for longer. But they are. That is still painful, I don't know. Yeah. It's just like a constant series of decisions. So having had some laser hair removal, I'm, I'm pretty glad that I did it again because it just takes the overthinking out of it because then like, you do it and it's taken care of, and I'm not constantly facing a series of decisions that it's like, do I get it waxed? Do I get my eyebrows waxed again? Do I, um, you know, do it this way or that way? Um, it's kind of nice for some of the things to just have it taken off of the table. Um, although I even having found, like, the level of hair, the level and type of hair removal, that is fine for me. Then it is like having a daughter. And I remember, um, a member of our family, like, married into our family, was saying of, like some of the young girls in our family, she's like, oh, man, like, that girl's gonna have to start shaving her legs when she's eight or whatever. Shut your mouth. Yeah. And like, that's when, like, brought up and, you know, again like that the pressure comes on to you pretty early. And I'm like, honestly, are people noticing that overall my hair is light in different places, but for some reason, in my on my stomach, it has always been dark. And that was like my area of sensitivity. And then if you shave it when you're little, because that's all you know about. When it grows back, it's even worse looking and it's just this nonstop battle. And I can't even think about going through that with my daughter, because I know it will make her feel self-conscious. But I don't want her to feel self-conscious when she gets made fun of for not being handled, so. Yeah, but I think if you're setting up an environment where she can talk to you about it, so then you can discuss like what some of the options are because otherwise, yeah, you're just like nine and you're like, I guess I'll, you know, like get a razor or something because that's the only thing that you have access to. And like, you don't have a lot of information. So I hope that we can at least create an environment where our daughters can talk to us about it and like, kind of have that conversation, which is not something that I had, but and anyway, I would say to like kind of like talking about dark hair, I had a lot of this stuff where like things changed during pregnancy too. So I did have laser hair removal done before pregnancy. And then it's like after all your hormones change. And so like a lot of stuff grows back anyway. And technically the place that I went to has like a lifetime. You can always like, come back and like pay a one hundred dollars co-pay and then they'll like, give you as many sessions as you need to like fix it again. But I still haven't done that. And maybe I need to go there. I don't know. The guy was in no way trying to, like, add another thing to your list and be like, you should modify this too. It is funny because to me, like my confidence level is high right now, but I have learned that there are things that I'm sensitive about and I, for example, will never want my full stomach to show in a bathing suit again, even though I used to wear bikinis before pregnancy. I want to. Afterwards, I get it. I get that it's one of those things where, like, the more of us who do, who have stretch marks from pregnancy and all that, the more commonplace they are. But I'm just not ready to be a part of that statement yet, and I feel more comfortable when it's covered. And that's the thing is, like at the end of the day, like wearing a swimsuit should swimsuit should be something that you feel comfortable in. And so like, we can as much as we want to sit here and critique our own internal viewpoints that are making you feel that way. But again, like towards, I think a lot of my points here are just like let you know, like, let's just be so that we can devote our energy to other things. And so if letting ourselves be means wearing a one piece swimsuit, if it means like getting the Botox so you can just not be distracted by your eleven lines on a zoom call, um, so that we can focus on more important things. Um, yeah. And guys, you know, if you need your leg lengthening surgery and your penis enlarged and take a cue from Ron DeSantis and just wear high heels. High heels. Much easier. The Ron DeSantis high heels, the, uh, the Elon Musk hair plugs, the Austin Powers penis enlarger. You know, there are options out there for you, too, gentlemen. Yeah. We just want to make sure that we're, you know, talking to both sides here. So we'll add that in. So closing question Kay. What is one thing that as of yet never say never. You have thought about doing and have not done. I just need to get my eyebrows threaded, waxed, something kind of the same as like the eleven started showing up. I feel like eyebrows are one of those things that once you notice you're not up keeping them, it can start like staring you back in the face that you're like, just do this little thing, but then, you know, you get it done. You have to get it done every three to four months or so at least. And that's one thing that again, like on the list of things that bothers me, I just feel like it doesn't bother me when it should bother me as a thick eyebrow. However, I have never looked at your eyebrows and been like, oh man, it's because mine are light colored. And so now you think that I now understand your viewpoint that you are a dark colored person. And so you're like, oh, like I have dark eyebrows. Kelly has light ones. And therefore Kelly's eyebrows were always true. I shouldn't tell you that you can't feel uncomfortable about your eyebrows just because you do not have the natural bushiness of my Frida Kahlo eyebrows, but everyone is allowed to very, very nicely up kept feel uncomfortable in their own way. And we don't need to. We don't need to judge about that. But. Yeah. What about you? Um, so I feel like the one for me is, um, lip filler, because that does seem like such an extreme step to take. It's not something like Botox where you can just be like, oh, like do a little bit. And because it seems like that's one where people can't, and maybe it's just because I don't know who's had it done. And there are people who have had it done that did like just enough to look a little bit fuller and more natural. And I just don't know about those people. And I just see the people with, like, the Kardashian duck lips on, you know, reality TV the first time and I'm not Lindsay Lohan is wonderful and she looks wonderful again. But when she briefly had them, I was like, oh, but I always loved everything about her face. How like, yeah. And I guess that's just like one of those things again, kind of back to my original point that, um, I miss the days that I was never alive for. I miss a time before my time when you could just be like, oh, yep, this is a feature of my body. And other than that, you could maybe like, you know, rub a little rouge on your cheeks. There wasn't really much to do about your your natural features. And so then you could just get on with living your life instead of, yeah, like being a more thin lipped person. And I know that that's something that like, as you age and you start to kind of lose some of that, like elasticity in your face that you get, they get thinner, they get more of that, like white lady, like puckered up little skinny mouth kind of thing. And so I'm like, ah, I don't know, like, that could be my future. Um, and then, yeah, but that does feel like a bigger step than, like, highlighting my hair or, you know. Yeah, getting my eyebrows done, um, to have fillers. And I think it's pretty expensive, so I've never actually done it. But I do like, think about that from time to time or like, if you were to ask me that question, I guess that would be my answer. So when we when I mentioned to some of our friend group that I was thinking about moving to Miami, not me personally, but my husband would like us to move to consider moving to Miami. My friend looked at me and she's like, you'd have to get duck lips. Like we'd come to visit you. You wouldn't be allowed to exist as you. Like you would come back and you'd be a different person who has way more plastic surgery. And I'm not. I did not particularly notice that in Miami. It was just a general thing towards any fancier part of the country than the small city that we live in. That's known for being a little on the rougher side. Yeah, and I think that's a good like, I read an article about how with the rise of all this beauty stuff over social media, I mean, on one thing, on one hand, today's youth have, um, makeup tutorial videos, so they actually look really put together, whereas, like, I don't know what you looked like when you were thirteen, but my makeup was all over the place. I was learning by doing, um, but I think that there are just more kind of universal beauty standards. And they were talking about kind of everybody, like gravitating towards like a certain look like for a while that like everyone had to look like a Kardashian or everyone wants to look like this, that there's just more of that pressure to conform to a really universal beauty standard. Um, and instead of when you think like like you're Timothée Chalamet example of that, there are so many people that their beauty is in their uniqueness. And so you think about like, yeah, like Lindsay Lohan, she just had a beautiful face and it wasn't exactly like somebody else's face, but that was what made it unique. And so when we had this pressure to all kind of look like this one ideal of beauty, which is usually like built around like a very specific set of racial features, typically white, um, you know, and other things like that. Then it kind of takes away the beauty of just like things that people tell me that they're like, oh, I hate this about myself. Like, if you ask that question to other people, but you hate my freckles. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, ah, I would that like, I hate this. You know, they're always features that as another outside person you're like, I love that about you. And like I would love to have that feature because it's like different from what I have. Um, so I feel like that's the summary is that our, like, unique quirks are our beauty. and so that's worth thinking about as well. If there's something that you want to change about yourself, that it's like your uniqueness and kind of like your own story too, which is what I've heard about for people who are on team, you know, didn't get Botox and, um, wearing the bikini with their stretch marks is like those wrinkles. And those stretch marks are part of your story. Um, so not that you, uh, are erasing your story if you do decide to do something about them, but it's nice to think about what the alternative is. If you're kind of struggling with that decision or the cost of doing it is something that's going to be really disruptive to your life or is outside of your reach. Um, that there's certainly lots of thoughtful reasons why, um, other than just, yeah, like some outside control or standard for your body that you might want to let it be. Yeah, I love that as a place to end. So thank you so much for listening, everybody. I hope you have a great day.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":5,"createdAt":"2025-08-26T11:23:58.225Z","updatedAt":"2025-08-28T18:49:37.527Z"},{"id":4,"title":"Out of the Mom Cave","slug":"out-of-the-mom-cave","description":"Today, we kick things off with mom guilt — you know, the totally psychologically healthy kind. Then we flip the script and let that guilt die a fiery death. We talk about crawling out of the early motherhood cave and reconnecting with our quirky and curious selves. And we report on our investigations of the spicy romance novel claim about feeling…ya know... through the stomach. We are unsure of how it relates to the episode topic, but it felt highly relevant at the time. This one is for anyone who's ready to drop the guilt and re-embrace the wonderful oddball they were before kids!","spotifyEmbedId":"4iffuLxa0WFxXW2464j5Ys","releaseDate":"August 19, 2025","duration":"56 minutes","topics":["praise kink"],"transcript":"Recorded July 29, 2025: This episode is mom guilt. Guilt for wanting things from orgasm to rest and content warning here. Same for all of our episodes. Um, just some explicit adult topics. So if you are watching this, listening to this with someone who's a bit more sensitive or younger, or maybe your father in law, I don't know why you're listening to it with your father in law, but just in case, probably time to turn it off before we jump in and start off with our first question. Okay. When was the last time you felt guilty for just doing something you wanted to do? I was thinking about this, and I think that my answer is going to sound funny because it's not necessarily that I wanted, wanted, wanted to do it. But I think that when it comes to prioritizing my career meetings over my partners meetings, I end up prioritizing his, even though it would be much easier for me to make sure that I make it to mine, and it would prevent emails from being sent and from me looking like I'm the one who has kids and has a more cluttered life. And that. So that's more, you know, kind of related to being a working mom and making sure that you're being there for your work, your kids, and as when kids are unexpectedly home. But I think that those are like my main times when I'm feeling guilt over that. I'm just not doing it right. I mean, I think you as a person, something I really respect about you and your partner, is that you both do a really good job about giving each other time, and that's something that's hard to do when you both have kids. So you are both a really good example of it. Um, I definitely feel the career guilt too. I feel all the guilt. The career guilt. Um, in our case, there's a big discrepancy between how much we make. Um, and the thing that I'm quick to overlook is how much. Partially the difference in how much we make in our lines of work is because society is kind of fucked up and, um, you know, it's just like the things that that capitalist society values aren't necessarily the most valuable things. Like, my sister's a teacher and her husband is an engineer, and he makes a lot more than her. And I mean, she's like teaching the future engineers of America because she's a math teacher. So, you know, I try not to do that thing. Too much of actually taking the cash value of your job and equating that with, um, with how much it's worth, you know, in a bigger sense of the term. And I think we're going to get more into that kind of question about worth later on. Um, so, I mean, that's one thing. And I think sometimes it's really easy for me to forget how much I made choices, um, sensitive to the fact that I would have to always be planning my life around a family and kids, and that was kind of one of the, like, semi-useful things that Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In book got into is that, you know, women opting out earlier. I'm not necessarily mad about it, because I don't think that I'm like wishing that I had had the capability to work some eighty hour a week, you know, job. That's your whole life. And I've somehow missed out by not having that. Um, but yeah, I think I was always making decisions based on having a career that would be flexible. And then once having kids, being the one who is always kind of opting out of things. So, yeah, of course, my job has kind of been secondary. Well, that and when I think about myself and even starting in high school and in high school, I, you know, I had a strong GPA, strong test scores, I could have done many different things, but my mind was always on, well, what do I want after college? And to me, it was actually very revolutionary that I wanted to be a working mom, but I wanted to do it in a way that I could always be there for my kids and have more flexible hours. So I actually went into nursing with the idea that then I could, you know, when I had kids, still work, even though it was just one to two shifts on weekends and be there during the weekdays with them. And from from the get go. It was always like that. And I even remember in college my advisor meeting with me and saying, okay, well, what are your plans for education after your degree? And I was like, oh, having kids and getting married. And and that that is the whole reason for this degree. And that's not the direction it ended up going. And I think I naturally wanted to look at things at a systems level. And so I went back to school and but but it's interesting how kind of from the get go what women are told about their expectations after they graduate college and what it might look like in their twenties and what they see their moms doing. It all drives into that. A lower earning career path, and it kind of all feeds into each other with this cycle. Yeah. And what man has been asked at age eighteen, you know, how are you going to try to have it all? Um, yeah. And if they were asked that, it would probably be something more like my responsibility is to make as much to be the breadwinner and to make as much money for my family. And that's how I would be a great man in society is to be able to be that. And so it's like we're all like led into things from a very early direction. Yeah, I think did I, did I mention Ali Wong's bit previously? I love Ali Wong. Oh is that I meant. So one of my favorite things that she said is when she says, I want a wife, she's like, imagine how successful I could be if I had a wife. Like, I want everyone to have a wife. Um, and that's how I feel sometimes. And not that I begrudge my husband his success at all, but I just think I want a wife. Imagine what I could have done if I had a wife. And so I think that's something you would have to think about. Summer camp registrations, I know. Exactly. And it just like things would come together for me and I wouldn't be so scattered. I think I'm already scatterbrained, but I wouldn't be so scatterbrained at work. I feel like I am. Maybe we all do. I've gotten very comfortable telling different groups like, oh, I'm late because of my kids, or I can't meet after four o'clock pm because I want to be there for kids pickups, and I don't. While they're all accepting, that's fine. I don't know how that's impacted my opportunities down the line or things that I wasn't invited to because I was known as someone who didn't like evening things. And, you know, when I do travel for work, I'm in and out that day. I'm not going to the group dinner that's happening later on that I can miss. But on the Ali Wong thing, I have the flip side of that of a comedian who I saw in New York City, and he was saying that his girlfriend broke up with his girlfriend of two years or so, broke up with him, and she's like, I need, I need a man to be my boyfriend. Like I need a real guy here. And he's like, tell me about this. And she's like, well, you have health insurance. That if we got married could cover me. You'd have a car. You'd be able to have the down payment to get a house. You know, these are the things that I'm expecting that I'm looking for. And he's like, shoot, I need health insurance to, like, find me this man. I will be there. Like, I totally get it. You definitely should break up with me if you think that that's there for you and I to. You might see me later on with Jacob or someone like that. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. I like that one too. Both ends. Yeah. It's just hard to be an adult these days. And even you, even when you were thinking, you were saying about, you know, feeling bad missing work or how that impacts you, that you, um, have had to leave things early or say no to after work events. I have had friends who don't have kids say that they are frustrated that there's just sort of this free pass that parents get that's like, oh, I can't do this weekend thing because obviously got the kids, got the kids. And one of my coworkers was like, well, like, I want to run a marathon next month. Like, why can't I not come to the thing on Saturday? Because I have to run. That's my priority right now. I think my takeaway, and this is why, as much as I was in a job where I did legitimately have to stop the job that I was doing and move into, um, something different, but related, because the travel associated with my job was just not it was doable. And I saw women doing it, and I just thought, I don't like this enough to want to do that and miss out on things from my kids. So I did take a step aside, not a step back, but I took a different took a different route. And I don't really regret it because I think I was getting kind of burned out doing the thing that I was doing anyway. So it gave me a new a new angle and something exciting. And I started my own business. Um, but yeah, I feel like generally my takeaway from these things is I never get to the end of it and think, I wish that I worked more. So it's like it's this guilt that the tricky part is like, half of me. Half of me is like, man, I wish that I really continued to take the time to prioritize work, because in my work, there's a very clear way that, you know, the more grants, more papers I get, the more the more esteemed I'll be, the other opportunities I'll have. And then part of me is like, oh, well, I don't want to work at all and be fully for my kids and travel. And, you know, Danny, get on that. So I can have my, my, you know, stay at home dream life for myself. Yeah. This is something I've reflected on a lot, because I'm currently on a break from work due to gestures wildly at everything that's happening. Um, and yeah, that, um, so it's something that I'm kind of grappling with because I don't miss working right now, I might add, in another couple of months. Um, and I don't wish that I had my husband's role of being, like, currently the sole earner in the family. But there's something that I'm jealous about, and it's like that, that sense of importance that work gives you of kind of, you know, you even see little kids doing that if they're like, oh, I'm very busy right now. I have to go do work, work, work because they hear their parents saying it. But yeah, just this sort of sense of significance and importance and the sense that you get to claim the first dibs on that time off and that recreational time. It's really hard for me now. So, you know, getting into another kind of guilt, um, to, to take recreational time, like if it's a weekend and my husband's like, okay, can I take Saturday morning to do this? Um, I'm like, oh, yes. Absolutely. Like, take a break. I have a really hard time asking for time for myself on the weekend because I'm like, well, now I can kind of have time for myself during the week and my time just seems worthless, which is a hard thing to grapple with, especially because again, it's just getting back into this capitalist thing of what you assign value to that. And so I read something that I don't know if I fully agreed with how it was said, but this kind of dichotomy of who people who women want to be, and it's, do you want to be the girl boss who totally puts your career first, and husband and kids kind of come second? Or do you want to be the trad wife who's fully there for the kids? Your main role is mothering, and the person commenting on it said, well, really, both women want the same thing and they're kind of in the same box, and both women want to do half the work, which I don't enjoy. I don't agree with that wording, but there's something there that right, that the normal work is almost double the work where we are, whether we're working or not, still doing a disproportionate amount for our kids. If you look at any birthday invitation that you've ever received, for a kid, it was most likely designed and made for the mom, who also was the one who did the, you know, the dessert order and everything like that. I'm not going to say the meal order because your partner might have done that for your kid's birthday party. Yeah, yeah. Or actually made the dessert, but but either way, you're doing so much that it's just overwhelming. And that's why it becomes unsustainable to imagine doing all of one or all the other. But the other problem that is exactly kind of what you touched on, though, is this issue of like when you lose your feeling of financial independence, for lack of a better word, that like when you're when you have your own amount, then you're contributing your amount. Then when you want to do something like go on a trip with girlfriends, there's no question that you deserve the time and that how much money goes into it is yours to spend and all those things. I think that that's kind of where it gets complicated. Yeah. And my sister's also kind of in a similar situation of changing things from from around at work and is just working part time right now. And we talked about doing some things, and it's always just this kind of guilt of she's like, why can't spend money on just myself for anything? Because I'm not the one bringing in that much money. And I think it's interesting to read feminist economics in this, because one of the big contributions there is thinking about how we value different things. And in traditional economics, it's just very dollar sign. Like if you earn one hundred thousand dollars a year, your labor is worth one hundred thousand dollars. And so if you are a stay at home mom and you earn one hundred and you earn zero dollars, then your labor is worth zero dollars in traditional economics. And I think there have been a lot of feminist economists who have kind of challenged that and all that invisible labor. And there's something wrong with our the math is not mathing if if that's if that's all. Is that like, how much is the paycheck? Say that it's worth and presents the same problem as like, why is a teacher worth less than, you know, like a tech CEO or something? Like, I want zero, Elon Musk's in my future and millions of overpaid teachers. Like, why is the world set up the way that it is set up? And I think that this plays into the Christian culture that so many of us were raised in, and particularly as Jay and me were raised in. And the Proverbs thirty one wife and the ideal homemaker. And I know that you are the expert on the Proverbs thirty one wife, though you yourself, as your partner would say, are not a good Proverbs thirty one, right? I guess not, depends how you read the text. If you read the text, how it was read to me growing up. And I think if this phrase feels common to you, you were probably brought up in an evangelical or evangelical informed Christian tradition. And obviously there are so many kinds of conservative Christians. Beyond the evangelicals. And for you, I think that's the the Catholicism has different ways of, um, making women feel inferior. But this is a specific one. Uh, if you want a good time, you know, you can go and read about it. Uh, you can go read the actual chapter. Um, so it's kind of just this it's usually read to you as like, this is the virtuous woman, and it describes this upper class Jewish woman in, in the area in era in which it was. And just like all these things that she does during the day, she runs the household, she sews, she cooks, she takes care of the whole family. She's just like, got all these plates that she's balancing. Um, and just this description of a fabulous woman. And so, um, and a lot of evangelical contexts, this was a more specifically named way to talk about the thing that I think is pervasive through all of conservative Christianity, which is, you know, she has to do it all. Like what you were just saying about somebody who's like, oh, well, this is this cop out. If you're the girlboss mom or the tradwife mom is you're giving up half of it. And I think the Proverbs thirty one woman, as she's presented to conservative Christian culture, is very like she does it all and looks fabulous. Doing it is kind of how it's presented to you. And so if you're not aware, you would go to like Proverbs thirty one women like seminars, or there'd be like diaries, books that you could read, um, to strive to become or to raise your daughters to be. This Proverbs thirty one woman. Um, so not everyone uses that phrase, but I don't know. Okay, you could talk about from a Catholic perspective where that phrase probably wasn't used, that you still get a lot of that, uh, energy coming off of it. I think just the way that I was raised, you know, my mom literally always made the dinner. She was always the one to set it out. She was always the one to do the laundry. There was never any question. When my dad did it, it was like, ooh, this is a big day, or it's because my mom was really feeling some way or I never she was never in a bad mood about it. That's not what I'm saying. She was sick or something. This is where you get, especially our mom's generation. That's like that. Not that my mom says this, bless her. But the thing where your husband is taking the kids for the day and they go, oh, he's babysitting. What a swell guy. One time I was playing with one kid, and the other kid needed their diaper changed and I was just, oh, not that it wasn't one hundred percent his role, but I looked and was like, hey, can you change so-and-so's diaper? And my partner went and did it, and my mom looked at me and was like, wow, my daughters are so comfortable asking their husbands to do stuff. And I was like, do you mean change his child's diaper while I am playing with the other child? And he was sitting there on his phone like, it's not quality in a poopy diaper. Yeah. This wasn't this wasn't me. You know, being bossy and sitting up there on my throne while I painting my nails or and and if, if I were, that would also be completely okay. But that's how I was raised, where I was like, oh, of course the mom is going to do that. And it was kind of noticed the few houses in the neighborhood where there was a more equal relationship, and it wasn't exactly a smiled upon thing that the that in that case, the mom had established some equality where the dad was doing more. It was, oh wow, that husband is so great. I feel so bad the way that or even like he's pussy whipped. I mean, our moms didn't say pussy. Whatever our moms said that was the equivalent of it. Your mom didn't say that. Yeah, I wish I would have respected it more if she had just come out and said that again, I don't yeah, I don't know how much my mom. I feel like my mom would have kind of been, uh, in, in, in shock and awe about this and would have actually been kind of positive. I think my mom doesn't know it, but she's, like, secretly a feminist and like, kind of ahead of her time, but would never use that term because it's very, you know, dirty and kind of the circles that we come from. So, SJ, I know that you told me, uh, that you did not expect sex to come into this episode, but you know that I can't help myself and I think that it should because there's guilt there too. So I looked into this, and I always like to see if there's studies proving what I anecdotally see. And there was a study by Doctor Gurwitz maiden, who does research at a sex lab, and I was so happy to hear about her sex lab. Sex lab is she looks very cool, and I'm very jealous of her job because all the studies I'm like, oh, this is so interesting. I could dig into this for hours. So it looks at it, looked at people in relationships for at least a year and, uh, had about forty five percent men, fifty five percent women respond and report on whether they were trad supporters. So traditional gender norms, all that or not, and their sexual desire or sexual frequency. And this will not surprise you, but I was so happy to see it backed up in the data. But people who were trad supporters had less sex, reported less sexual desire overall, and had less sexual desire and satisfaction with their partners. And this was whether or not you were a trad trad supporter. So it was kind of alarming. But for women, a big predictor of their frequency of their sex was their reported desire of their partner or their partner's desire to have sex with them versus their own desire. And that was even stronger for trad supporters. Okay, but kind of depressing, that is. Yeah. Well, not not surprising. I'm depressed, but not surprised. I'm going through life depressed, but not surprised. Yeah. Um, so one of the things that comes to mind immediately that could be behind this is what we were talking about previously in a previous episode about this idea that you are pure and you never have a sexual thought. You don't explore or learn at all until the day of your marriage, and then suddenly you're of course, you don't just flip a switch. I think there's so much guilt for women who were really bought into or raised heavily in that Christian purity culture. You can't just dismiss it. And so many women talking about how sex makes them feel dirty. Um, even once they're married and doing it in kind of an acceptable context. And, and I was thinking about a bit about what we talked about on the last two episodes where even though you're trained in a way and trained for the lack of a better word, you're not trained. Uh, but it's kind of built into like, the man's the one who wants the sex. The man's desires are more important and all that. The man's are the sexual creatures, whereas the woman are there to fulfill the, you know, their sex needs that, when maybe it could be the case that in relationships, because you're focused on the man, you're not realizing that when you're also focused on the woman, the woman's sexual desires, all that your sex just isn't as great and you're not interested in it. Even the man's not as interested in it as as a woman, because it's doing it out of a sense of obligation. Yes, because they don't realize that if they actually took the time, if they did some core play like Ian Kearney wants us to do with our wine, you know, then they'd be having a better time. But that's my anecdotal, you know, so, so you hear so much about, um, the purpose of sex is for procreation coming from the conservative Christians. That's why I've only had sex twice. Yeah, same with my husband's parents. He said that that can only be possible because he can't fathom otherwise. Um, I don't know otherwise, but, yeah, I think that it is like, exactly once a week, on a certain day at a certain time. It's probably in a calendar. I won't go into that. I have to edit that out. Um, but yeah. So when, when, when sex is just for procreation. And that allows you to be judgmental of people who are sluts. Um, this allows you to be judgmental of, you know, LGBT anything outside of just, like, very vanilla hetero. Um, but it also kind of deadens any kind of interestingness, um, about your relationship because you've created such this narrow thing. And if sex is only for procreation, then why are you doing. I mean, then you should be a pure Catholic with, like, no contraception. You should only be having it. You know, when I promised I wasn't going to talk about Handmaid's Tale in the context of a fun, sexy podcast. But like, you know, you'd be like The Handmaid's and just like, on the day of your maximum fertility. Just go have an in a full dress. Yeah. Just hike up your bloomers and have a little, like, impregnating ceremony. But I know that y'all don't think that. So why can't we talk about the fact that we know that sex is not just for procreation? Yeah, the poor people in their, uh, relationships. So, again, I'm not trying to. Yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry. We're not trying to shit all over your lifestyle. I'm sure it's great. I'm sure Mike Johnson is really enjoying his. His sex. Oh, my gosh, that someone who. I do feel like Candace, but I won't. Um. And if you didn't grow up with the Bible in your house, you have seen this play out in pop culture everywhere. And I was even thinking about, like, in White Lotus. Did you watch White Lotus? Yes. So am I. Am I an American or with a TV or am I not? So, you know, season one where they have the, um, like the woman character who's a tech exec. Oh, yeah. Connie Britton's character. I never know their characters names. I just know the actors. Yes. So Connie Britton's character, if you watch it, even though she is clearly like the breadwinner and the earner of their household, she's constantly like folding laundry in every single scene. That bothers me. Yes. I saw it, and it definitely intentional, and I am so curious to know whether they, like, had scripted that in or whether Connie Britton was just naturally folding clothes or doing something, and they decided to start including or just made that part of her character because like, of course it would be. I do know people like that. Um, and I think that there was data about that, and I don't have the exact numbers. Um, maybe we can go back and edit this. But no, I've seen I feel like I know the study that you're talking about where even if the woman earned more. Yes. She still did more of the housework than the husband. Exactly. Yeah. Even if they're fifty fifty, she does more, which I think we all know. Um. But, yeah, even if she earns more than the husband, then she still does more. So, um. Yeah, that that kind of guilt about, um. Yeah. Just not being able to walk away from things. Um, yeah, we we also saw it in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Yeah, that. Yeah, that was a good one. Um, my favorite part in that is, of course, in the first season when she's still trying to be the trad wife that her mom raised her to be. Uh, I just die about the part that she gets up at five a m and has a secret alarm set so that she can put her face on and then hop back into bed and just look like she woke up that way. But that is the realest thing I ever saw, because every other TV show just has these women who wake up with, like, full makeup on. Um, I just have so many comments about, I know there's a whole, uh, thing on the internet, too, where they make jokes about those dystopian kind of future films or, you know, zombie apocalypse films, and it's like, I'm the female character in this zombie apocalypse film. I somehow have access to a razor to shave my armpits, and I do my eyeliner every morning, but I have like a short haircut because it's the future that I somehow keep up with my immaculate pixie haircut. What was I going to say? For Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, I recommended it to my mom and she overall really liked it, but she could not get over that. She left her kids for her career and that she left them for such long periods. She was like, how am I supposed to like a character who does that? Yeah, I see that a lot. I have a I have a close friend who is not with her father of her daughter, and, um, she has a career where she is away a lot and travels and lives close by to them, but not in the same city. And so she gets questions about that all the time about like, how have you how were you able to make that decision? You know, she'll be chatting with people at work and they're like, oh my gosh, you leave your daughter behind. And then the same thing as the babysitting. They're like, who is she with? And she's like her dad. She's with her dad and her dad's wife. And they're like, oh, you know, that must be so hard for you sometimes. Or oh, he is such a great guy to do that. And I mean, he's great. And you know, we just talk about the fact that I don't think anybody would say anything if the gender roles were reversed. And he had a job where he traveled all the time and the the child lived primarily with the mom. I think that people might not even know that he has a kid and would be like, yeah, of course, like, you got to do what you got to do for your job. And if you're not married, then, like, the kid has to live with somebody that's, uh, hometown friend of mine, married a guy his second marriage, and his wife went to California to become to take up her acting career, which was always her dream. And she could never do because of the the husband's career. And now, like the my hometown friend has really started raising those two kids essentially. But it's interesting because and this is, you know, from the outside watching as a friend, but it feels like now she's become the very, very full time and having more of a almost a single parent look to her to these two kids and I can't some small part of me is like, maybe the reason why the other one left and really felt this urge to take some time and, and, you know, prioritize herself was from from these types of things. And that's what I think of even though Joel's great and Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, even though he cheated for a year with Pam, Pam, Pam, Pam, Pam, Pam. So I actually realized that recently, I feel like I've had a very healthy relationship with guilt, in that I've found ways to minimize it and put myself first particularly, and this is something that we do together. But taking time to work out, uh, taking time to make sure that I'm getting what I want in bed first, all that and all these things have had like a super positive impact on how I am as a mom, uh, a A partner. Just a person in the community. You know, I'm high energy because I took the time to put myself first and work out. I'm having a great time in bed because I took the time to make sure that I was getting what I wanted to. You know, all these different things that I used to feel so much guilt about. And then when I was able to finally kind of tamper that down a little bit, and in the cases where I am able to tamper it down a little bit, I just feel like it ends up just paying off for everybody and everybody's having a better time. Yeah. And it it is it feels like a positive cycle for the most part too. I know I used to have such a great relationship with exercise and in college and was an athlete and then pretty much overdid it. Uh, graduated stopped exercising because that just felt like the greatest treat in the world to not have to be on anybody's schedule and just eat anything. I wanted not do exercise if I wanted, which I didn't. Um, and kind of did none of that for a while and then did for a while, this kind of like, oh, I'm gonna, like, work out on my own. Like, I don't want group classes because I don't want anybody telling me what to do. Um, and it I think the pandemic helped snap me the pandemic and having kids, which is all similar time frame helped snap me out of that because I was like, I'm never going to be able to work out at home. When you have a kid, going out and working out somewhere else is the highest luxury. Like before kids, you're like, whatever, I have stuff here. I can do it on my own time after kids. I'm like, this is the greatest thing in the world. It's such a privilege to leave the house, to have somebody else tell me what to do. I went from like, after college being like, nobody tells me what to do. If I want to stop running, I'll stop running to being like, just put on music. Tell me when to run. Tell me when to pick up the weights, when to put them down. Yeah. And it's a total luxury. I think that's funny. When you said that you stopped working out afterwards. I stopped reading for pleasure for a little bit in my twenties, and I stopped reading because it felt like I already have to read so much for for work and for school. And it also kind of felt like reading for pleasure was taking this level of time for myself that I didn't deserve, for lack of a better word. I don't know if deserves the right word, but it's like, oh, if I should if I am going to read, it's going to be something work related because that's the most productive use of my time. Maximize it with every moment. And so yeah, or like I feel like I would do things where I would like work out because I would clock stuff on my Apple Watch, but I would be cleaning the house because I'm like, why would I work out? Just like running on a treadmill when I could work out by like going up and down the stairs in my row home carrying laundry. And I would like clock my heart rate and calories on that like it was a workout, but not feel like I not at all as relaxing as a workout workout though. I mean, like as far as, like raising your heart rate, sure. But if that is like the only thing that you want out of it. But I think to your point about just like having it be taking time for yourself and finding, I think if somebody people were telling me the positive effects of like, oh, you know, have this for yourself, like get back into this routine. And I was just like, no, that sounds terrible. So you could not have told me that for the world until I got back into it on my own. And my, my partner had like the similar thing that for the longest time I was like, get back into it. Like go to group classes, do something. And he was just like, no, that's not for me. I wouldn't like that. I wouldn't like that until finally, I like found him a personal trainer that is like specializes in the specific goals that he has and like it's like it's like a Tinder match fit. Yes. I found his Tinder match like semi personal trainer. And then I was like, you will have to go because you will have an appointment. And now he's like, I just wish somebody had told me before that. Like it's just really good to have you told us. Like I am one hundred percent sure I told you, but I'm happy. I'm happy because it's like I feel the same thing. And now I have like my whole social group around it, and he has a social group around it. And it's like this self-perpetuating thing, um, which it just feels really good because it's like you do it and then it feels good, and then you can do more things and you're actually, like, more happy and productive and also like, want to do those things, like working out or having sex more when they're like going well and have they are their own reward. That's I remember my, my partner was like, you know, your entire family tells me how much you used to read when you were younger. They tell me all these stories about how when you used to go on an airplane ride, you'd pack, like, all of your Harry Potter books into the backpack, even when they were hardcover. And I can't believe knowing that that you don't read anymore. And then when I started reading again, again, it felt like indulging in this guilty pleasure. And now I can't believe that I ever dropped it for so long. But it was just that same thing of like, oh, I don't actually have the time for it. If I do have the time to sit down and read through something, it needs to be for work or it needs to be doing something you had, like the joy kind of taken out of it to like, similar to like me and the working out of like you overdid it and not and it became for the wrong reasons. I feel like an episode of The Bachelor. You were here for the wrong reasons, Kelly, and you reaped the consequences. Um, but yeah, I, I had the very same thing happen with reading, and I had that moment of realizing that I used to be the kid who would, like, be so into a book that I would literally walk to the bus stop with my nose in a book. And, um, I went from that. Yeah. To, like, grad school to being forced to read all these things, to having to develop speed reading capabilities to get through reading three hundred pages a night of stuff that by the time that was all done, I was just like, and then a lot for work to where I felt like, if I'm going to be reading, I have to first, like keep up on all the current events, keep up on foreign affairs. And that just like took all the time. So very similar thing. I'm like, if I'm going to read, I will do that. Um, so similar to the group fitness classes. I guess it's finding the key for yourself. So maybe this is not for everyone, but for me it is having that like mixing my socialization and fun things with my accountability. Accountability buddies. Um, and, and having my book club, um, has really resparked my love of reading and has some accountability, but like in a fun way, not like college sports level accountability where I'm like, If I'm gonna finish this book, I might as well do it by next Thursday when I have book club and you get to sit and talk with other ladies about something that is not kid related. Yeah, just for you and out of interest and all those wonderful things. And and again, the night outside of the house becomes so much more precious when you have kids of. I think before I had kids, I was just like, whatever went to happy hour, like three hours, three nights a week, um, or went out to eat or something. And now I have to plan it. And it's so special that I also feel like if I'm if I'm setting aside the time for a book club. Like, I am gonna read that book. I'm gonna get my glass of wine. I'm gonna just have everything for that time that I set aside. Yeah. Getting a drink in a glass that you know you couldn't get if a kid was sitting next to you is a really nice luxury. You know, like when your drink comes in a really silly cocktail glass and you know that you couldn't get it with a kid next to you. It's like a very tippy cocktail glass that is just, like, so top heavy, and you get to drink the whole thing. Or my, um, when people when I'm going on a vacation, especially without my kids or with somebody to help with the kids and people are like, what are you most looking forward to? Like seeing this famous site, blah, blah, blah, whatever. My answer is always drinking all of my coffee while it's still hot. Ideally with a view, but like, that's just my greatest vacation indulgence is finishing my coffee. Um, yeah. Which to get back on the topic of mom guilt again, because I feel like I have to be doing all this stuff in the morning. Um, it's just so nice to have a break from that. We need that. And it makes us better because of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's that's the switch that you were talking about, is getting to the point where you're saying, I know that this is me. We need a new metaphor. It's so overused, though. Like putting on your own mask first. But it's also like putting on your putting on your own coffee first. Whatever. Um, that it is a service to everyone else. Um. And your partner wants you to be happy. You know, your kids want you to be happy. Um, well, yeah, my partner will point that out. Is like, I am somebody who wears my emotions on my sleeve. So, like, if I am stressed or just, like, not in a good place, it affects how I am to everybody. Like, I'm not good at compartmentalizing, for better or worse. Um, so I think, yeah, sometimes. Sometimes kindly and sometimes he's just like, get the fuck out of here. He's like, go take a glass of wine and sit in your bathtub until you calm down, because you are miserable to be around. So it's kind of like being put in time out. It's like you need to go upstairs, read a book, go work out. Yeah. Time out. And I, like, resent it a little bit, especially at the time because I'll become very childish when, uh, I've become very childish when I'm in a bad mood. But then reflecting on it after the fact, I'm like, I mean, you could have invited me in to the same end, but in a different manner, and that would have been great. But at the end of the day, I'm still sitting in my in my bathtub with my glass of wine. Um, and, and one thing that kind of comes to mind, um, to just kind of, I think, like a big picture thought about this is I love the writer speaker, Glennon Doyle, and I saw a video by her recently. Or maybe it was something I read in her book. Um, l blends together, but she was talking about how women so often see themselves based on their roles, and they define themselves based on their roles. And she was kind of asking the question, like, who are you outside of your roles? Um, because, like, those roles can come to an end, like women who define themselves by their role of mother, like, someday your kids won't need you anymore. And then who are you? Or we want to. You know, we were saying in the beginning of, like, you have to be the working mom, or you have to be the mom. Mom. Um, and if your job is what defines you, like, I'm working in an industry that's been really upended by, um, everything that's happened recently in gestures, broadly at world. And I think that's been so hard for so many of us, because it is a job that people very much define themselves by that career, because it's so all consuming. And so, like, who are you outside of that? Um, I think having time to yourself is really necessary, because if you don't take those breaks to reevaluate and have space with yourself outside that role, you are not facing that question until you are like, you know, you. I don't have this experience yet, but the moms. That is like the last kid goes off to college and suddenly they're left with this gaping void of who am I? Um, I think like getting to kind of grapple with that question of yourself, apart from roles, before you're staring into the abyss of yourself. Without the role is a really valuable thing again for everyone around you. That's helpful to think about. I feel like in the last year, like I've come out of like a three year cave that I was in and I was happy. My three year cave, to be clear. You know, I was becoming a mom. I was becoming a mom of young kids. I loved my kids. I loved learning how to take care of them. I was never, never at the top of my mind was I like, oh, I'm sad I've lost myself or anything like that. You know, I was always doing fine and chugging along, but there's so many aspects of myself that I wasn't prioritizing that I lost during those three years periods because I was just kind of trying to stay above water. Learn the new rule of being a being a mother. You know how that balances with the workplace and talking with you. Reading books again, all those pieces. Working out regularly with a group of other awesome women and men shouting out to you. Mr. P, who's always in class with us. Uh, but it feels like I'm learning who I am in my mid thirties now. It's almost like I like left, left starting at age thirty, having having my my first child. And now I'm coming back. I'm like, oh, I like myself now. I'm a little bit more mature. I'm a little bit more confident. But I still do have that quirky part of me that used to do things like, you know, provide live commentary on Pornhub, which was something that I did. You know, I still have those parts of my personality. They aren't gone. They just kind of had to be suppressed for a little bit while I balanced. So all consuming, like in those early years. And I think that that's something that moms who are in that stage deserve to hear is that it's okay that that is just this all consuming period. And with my youngest being three and a half, I feel like, yeah, I'm starting to to like come out of that cave. And not that it was a bad place, like you had to be in there because it's so all consuming. But yeah, that you can step out and start to reevaluate. And, um, I was talking to a friend last night who was asking about, you know, people's choices at the dinner we were having of the spacing between their children. Um, and you were there, too. Okay. Um, but was that kind of asking about that? And my kids are three and a half years apart, and I know yours are less than two. Yeah. Like eighteen. And so it's like you can so much see the pros and cons of both. And partly ours was due to kind of circumstances and infertility and things like that. Um, but I also remember because my mom told me before I had kids that she's like, just have them as close together as possible, just bam, bam, bam, pop them out. Um, because you will just have this period of your life where, yeah, you're in the cave, basically was what she was saying. And just like, compress that together so that you can get to the other side of being in the cave. And but then when I was actually in that, I was like, oh no, this is hard, mom. Like, I can't I can't go back in. I just got out of the cave. I can't go back in. I felt I distinctly remember like when my firstborn was eleven months old, and it was the first time that I had gotten my period back, and I just was like, oh, then I would have to restart this, but then I would have to restart all that, knowing that eventually I am going to get pregnant again with a second. And I was like, screw it, I'm having them close together. We're going to start trying for the second. Right now, I'm going to get this because I knew that I wanted two. I'm from a really big family. I love my really big family, but I knew that it just it wasn't for me. And so I went right into it. And I don't know, sometimes it's really, really hard. I was definitely in in a cave. No other parts of myself. But coming back out is awesome. So great. Yeah. It is so good knowing you're on the other side. And so good that she asked that question because it was so interesting hearing several people sharing their stories about it, because everybody, everybody had such a different perspective. And I think even just using us two as examples that we ended up with very different spacing, um, and had are both like that worked for us. And, you know, we have kids who are different ages apart and that's working for us. Or, you know, we were trying to say like, oh, if they're close together, though, they'll be best friends when they grow up. But then it's like, I know siblings who are adults now who are very close together in age and like, do not care for each other whatsoever, have like no relationship. And I know, like my my little sister and I are three and a half years apart which I read somewhere is like the worst is same as my kids. And they're like, this is the worst age gap because they're neither, like close enough in age to have like a sense of shared everything or far enough apart that they just kind of have their distance and have like, you know, like you were saying, you're very close with your sister, who's very different in age from you. Um, but it's like, I don't know, there's just, like, so many more factors. But my little sister and I are three and a half years apart, and we are super close, in part because we have very similar personalities and we just, like, get each other. So that's like, that's just totally you have no idea when you're having kids if the next kid is going to have same personality, clashing personality, like you're just rolling the dice. Yeah. And you don't know how you're going to feel during that. I mean, you might end up having a really, really hard childbirth, which happens a lot. And then it might feel a totally overwhelming that you had the two close together. But then that could also happen five years later and you feel like, oh, wow, I finally got my body back. So no right or wrong answer. Both happy with that. I love that. Um, well, I realize I got us a little bit off track. Not that we're ever off track because everything is topical. Okay. But, um, did you experience kind of having on this idea of seeing once we're once we're regularly we regularly. We were going to ask each other, um, when's the last time you took time for yourself and how does that feel? And we were discussing and realized we both are like taking time for time for ourselves. I just came off of a nap today that I just like, did nothing today because I was super tired. So I took a nap and I had a feeling that's why I had to notify you. It said like delivered quietly. And I was like, ah, I'm kind of getting to the point where I was, I was awake, but definitely, uh, needed to like, have a little reminder to like, nap time be over. Um, so instead the question is, um, what was that breakthrough for you of, or was it a breakthrough, or was it, was it something else of getting to the point of recognizing why that you needed that time for yourself or that to actually start taking it? So when I started going to workout class, I felt like, wow, it's an hour. And, you know, leave ten minutes early, get back after ten minutes, take a shower. So really, we're talking at least an hour and a half to two hours that I'm gone and I do it sometimes on Saturdays and Sundays. I do it sometimes on evenings, sometimes in the morning. And a big breakthrough for me was that my partner started noticing if I went more than two days without working out, or if I hadn't worked out, and he was like, oh my gosh, I can tell by your mood, like, you need to get out of the house and go work out. Yes. Yes. And I think it was just a sign. It's like, that's how well this works for the household that even though he's on his own with two kids who are, you know, high needs, they're not perfectly well behaved kids at all. Uh, he still noticed that. Okay. It all works easier if you go and get your own time and then come back to us. Yes. I was talking to some friends where that was very much the same thing, that they were kind of trying to talk about how to figure out stuff for their schedule. And she was like, well, I could like, skip my workout. She's like very regimented about, like always getting her workout in. And like we all are aware, it's very tied to her mood. And it was funny because her husband was like, no, you cannot skip your workout. I cannot be around you because she's just, like, found this way. For her. It's like dealing with anxiety. It cleared up so many things. Um, but I would say, actually, for me, I don't know that I. I mean, I'm sure there were some moments of insight. I don't know that it was like a breakthrough where I was like, meditating on top of a mountain by myself one day and was like, I have achieved nirvana. Um, I think it was more of like one of those hard work kind of things of, you know, like the Aristotelian habituation of like, you, you do a thing because you know that that is what you should be doing. And like, you just keep doing it even though it doesn't feel normal to you until it becomes habit. And then like that habit becomes part of your character, and then you do become somebody who's just like, oh, okay. Like I'm setting up my schedule for the week. Like, which day is am I going to work out? Like, how am I going to fit this in? Um, you know, just like working out ways to, like, have those habits become part of your normal. And it feels Was awkward at first. Like anything kind of does. So I don't I don't know that I had that breakthrough. Um, but I think that's probably true for a lot of people. Yeah. Even reading books, it's amazing how much time was apparently going to looking at Twitter or Reddit or other nonsense, because I find time now to read plenty of books and my productivity is still pretty similar. Yeah. I remind myself that because I think of like I was like in college and I somehow was like two majors playing a sport, played an instrument, um, like in a club, whatever, student government. And sometimes I'm like, how was I doing? All I mean, a I did have more energy because I was like twenty. Um, but I think also it was just like when you find things that are working for you, like, I just did all those things because I loved them like none of. Well, one, I did have a job too, but like it wasn't like, oh, I'm like doing this because like, work is making me or because I feel like I have to for something like I was just doing what I liked, and then it was like there was plenty of time in the day, um, everything got done, things got done, and like, oh, there was somebody thing, I wish I knew who to credit for this, but somebody was talking about, um, how, like, you're juggling all these balls and they're like, you're gonna drop some of the balls. It's just that, like, some of them are made of glass and some of them are made of plastic. And so, like, what are the balls that are made of plastic that are like, you can just, you know, the things where it's like, oh, your kids are like supposed to like, dress like a traffic cone on Wednesdays to promote traffic safety like that is a ball you can drop like your kid will be fine if you do not dress them as a traffic cone on Wednesday, like they will find something else that is like a glass ball for me. That's your child or your kid. That is true. Although mine, my child who is like that is old enough to like, take responsibility for that herself. That I'm like, all right, if you care about this school themed dress up day, then like you're in charge, you, you know, conceptualize your own personalized look for the occasion. Um, but, like, yeah, whatever. Those things are, knowing what they are. That's a good point. For your kids, for yourself, for your life. And then, like, being okay, especially for those of us who are kind of like, oh, I'm used to like high performing, being the best at everything, like keeping everything in the air. Once you have kids, I feel like that does just become impossible if you're also making time for yourself, if you're also making time for you and your partner, um, is just like becoming okay with the fact that you're going to drop some of those balls. But like, a lot of, like, sometimes I'm just like, my house looks like shit, but like, I'm gonna, you know, read a story to my kids before bed and worry about the house later or not, because at some point I will put away all of my daughter's clothes. Yeah, exactly. At some point. So maybe twenty thirty? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we wanted to start revisiting weird things that we brought up in prior episodes. Weird. Maybe I don't want to be judgmental. Not weird. Uh, quite remaining questions we had in the previous episodes of things that we have not do not have personal experience with or wanted to follow up more. Um, so yeah, the revisiting segment. So I had mentioned during a prior prior episode that you could it was a thing in one of the romance books that the guy had such a big penis that he had the girl put her hands down on her stomach so she could feel his penis through her abdominal wall or through everything, and we question whether that's a thing. Yeah. Um, I will report firsthand to having tried it with my partner, who I will say, um, I hope this is not hurting anyone's feelings, is not porn star sized. So I don't know if that is a requirement. Um, my partner is like a Goldilocks. He's either the smallest or the biggest. Okay, good. This is a good description. I like this. So I felt like this was a good context to try it. And um, what he had listened to that previous episode, um, he is one of our greatest fans and editors. And yeah, we were like, we have to follow up on this. Um, we haven't. There were some other ones that we haven't followed up on yet. Um, like the Viognier, uh, to report back, but, um, yeah, that it just seemed like it would physically be impossible based on, like, where the cervix is that you're not. Well, I mean, medical opinions accepted here. Okay. But, um, I want to do a deep dive on this because my only. So it doesn't make sense to me that you would be able to feel it, that I could feel it. What I imagine some people who are particularly like some women who are particularly like tiny, they're particularly slim. And some, you know, Johnson's that are particularly large, they're they're The biggest. Thank you for using the proper medical terminology. I didn't want to be crass. Not on this one. Is my dick big enough? I'm sorry, Johnson, that it felt like you should be able to theoretically feel like a big thing. Enter. And you have to understand that, like, especially some books are so odd. They're like, he was so big that my two hands couldn't like, like, like my fingers couldn't touch. I'm wrapping around and I have a lot of, you know, questions about their anatomy. And they're always, you know, smaller, tinier women. So obviously I let's research to be continued. Yeah, yeah I might I wish I had just had my annual with my gynecologist. Otherwise I, I was already making jokes to her. She was asking actually, I think we talked about previously that I didn't have the Gardasil vaccine because my mom didn't want me to be slutty. Um, and thought that it would be irrelevant for me because her daughter would never, Or, um, have premarital sex, so I would be completely monogamous for all time. Um, so when she was like, oh, I see that you've never gotten the Gardasil vaccine. And I was just like, yeah, my mom doesn't want me to be slut, didn't want me to be slutty, but she, like, did not get my sense of humor and just, like, looked at me. Like what? That what? That is so probably would have been the wrong person to ask her about the specific implications of a guy being so big that you could feel him by pushing down, but I do just want a clear medical opinion on, um, if that would even be possible. Because to me, it seems like the pubic bone is kind of a massive dildo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So I wish that I had more to report, but I found that one to be, um, underwhelming, and so far have found no evidence in favor. But, uh, yes, Kelly's gonna try with a huge dildo. Yeah. Maybe later on tonight. Well, thank you for listening to everybody.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":4,"createdAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.681Z","updatedAt":"2025-08-26T02:56:43.357Z"},{"id":3,"title":"Sex After Pregnancy: Not Quite the Bounceback","slug":"sex-after-pregnancy","description":"Today, we talk sex after pregnancy—the not-so-sexy sequel. We’re diving into the chaotic mess that is post-baby intimacy. From the very, very dry truth of the postpartum hormonal maelstrom to ill-fated attempts to get sexy time away from the kids and in-laws, we’re covering all messy things. We salute the unsung heroes who are pelvic floor therapists…and KY Jelly. We also touch on werewolf sex, but we are not sure why. So, if you’ve ever felt like your sex life was a lost cause after kids, grab a glass of wine...or lukewarm coffee that was hot 5 hours ago…and listen up. This one's for you.","spotifyEmbedId":"342yAwJhJzg6gxwtRbtDwJ","releaseDate":"August 12, 2025","duration":"58 minutes","topics":["Postpartum intimacy","Body changes","Relationships","Mental health"],"transcript":"Recorded June 26, 2025: Welcome to episode two. Sex after pregnancy. Not quite a bounce back. Back. Today we're diving into the awkward, uncomfortable, sometimes funny, and often frustrating experiences with sex after pregnancy, from vaginal dryness and a lot of hormone swings, to feeling sexy in a whole new body, to trying to squeeze intimacy in between toddler tantrums, we're covering it all. We'll talk a little bit about the research says that doesn't get magically better after six weeks, but there's a lot of hope, and maybe even some hacks about making sex happen with young kids around. So whether you're in the thick of motherhood, wondering when sex gets fun again, or if you're just here for solidarity, stick around. But maybe not with your audio on loud and public. Or if you're driving with your father in law or other people, you don't want to hear the word vagina sitting next to, you know, that kind of stuff. Or they do want to hear vagina, but they didn't want to hear vaginal dryness. Yes. That wasn't the context in which they wanted to hear about the vagina. Vagina was okay, but how do until you got to dryness. Dryness? Yeah. It's not something you want to hear. So opening prompt, what surprised you most about sex after becoming a mom? Wow. So many things. Um, I think the first one is it just changes everything. But especially how much? What is the thing that they tell you when you go to the gynecologist for your follow up appointment and they tell you about sex? Well, I think that they tell you the thing where they're like, oh, what kind of birth control methods do you have in place till I because I have an IUD. So you can't get the IUD back in until six weeks after or something. Not that I wanted anybody near there, but this is my whole point. Um, that they were like, oh, well, do you have a backup kind of contraceptive to use? And I'm like, who is who is doing that? I mean, I guess everyone has different experiences and I certainly had some really bad tearing. So I was not going to be a candidate for sex two weeks after a baby, but I don't know. How about for you, Kelly? So with me and I had a C-section, so I didn't have the tearing. But with breastfeeding, it was shocking how, uh, you become very, very dry. And that, just so you know, is not just because your sex drive is not there. Because you're extremely busy and extremely tired, but your low estrogen levels and your high prolactin levels actually make it that your vagina goes from being like, you know, lubricated and and soft and squishy to, like, very dry and thin. So this is not, you know, if you're feeling like, oh, it's just that my sex drive is low or anything. It's a real thing, and it's something that I feel lucky enough that my best friend had literally just delivered, delivered her baby maybe two months or so, and she's like, nobody tells you and you're trying to have sex, and you're like, this hurts so badly. And so then I did a Google search and I looked it up. And so that was a little shocking. Um, well, first of all, this is why I love having a medical professional to chat to about these topics. Uh, but I mean, also, ladies, it is okay if your sex drive is low because there's just a lot happening to your body. Um, and also great if your sex drive is high. Um, that's really exciting for you. Mine was not. I don't know. I think you're superwoman. If you're a sex woman is high. Those first. Yeah. Good for you. Get it? Get some in whatever way feels good to you. Because I think I just. I didn't want to be touched down there. Um, for a while. Um. Yeah. How how long after for you? After. Did you feel like things started to bounce back? I think that for me, a big thing and it's taken me a while to get over, is that my stomach went from being always very flat before pregnancy to I had, you know, I can't think of the medical term for it right now, but the thing where your abdominal muscles split. And so my stomach, I mean, right after delivering birth, it was a shock to see what my stomach looked like. It was just, you know, huge and wavy. It was like the baby was just taken out and nothing sucked back in at all. But, you know, even over time and even now that I feel like the rest of me has caught up and and is in shape, it's still very surprising when you're used to always feeling, um, sexy because of because of your overall outward appearance to start learning how to feel sexy again when your outward appearance is is different. And just embracing that as like, this is my body now and that's taken me. That took me a while. So yeah, I started after 6 to 8 weeks. But in terms of when I started feeling hot and initiating again. Oh my gosh, I don't know like a year after my second. I do think there was a big difference for me too, between after having the first and the second, which for us is second is the last one. Um, that after that I felt like I could start to have my body back and not in a like I'm getting my bikini body back, but like. And my body belongs to me again slowly. Because it's like when you're pregnant, your body doesn't feel like it's your own, um, when you're breastfeeding, when you have this small child, it just. And even toddlers, you know, just you have this feeling like your body is kind of always being grabbed by somebody else, uh, really or, uh, figuratively. And so I think that that was a sense of it too, is I started to get myself back, my confidence back more after the second time, one because I knew what to expect, but two, because I felt like I knew that this was Is the last time that it wasn't like, oh, well, I'm just going to go back to doing all this stuff again in a couple of years. So like, why, you know, my, my body is just for, for motherhood right now, for the next few years. Um, yeah. So I think that that made a difference as well. But I also feel like, um, just sort of general media things around how women are portrayed and all of those articles about, you know, somebody looking hot this many months after having a baby, or I remember when Kate Middleton had her baby first, which was the oldest one. And there was like the big thing about how she was leaving the hospital, and she had to that she looked so good that she was all like done up. And I'm like, why does she feel like she has to do that? And that they're like, oh, well, she still had to wear this loose fitting dress, because I think that's one that a lot of people feel like nobody told them is after you have the baby and you leave the hospital, you're still like, yeah, five months pregnant. It's not an elastic band that goes right back. You're still wearing those maternity pants? Yeah, I to me, my hospital pictures for both kids. It looked like somebody took my current face and my face before having kids. And they, like, extended it out like 2 to 3in. Like, it's like, amazing how your nose structure changes to widen. Pregnancy was not for me. Um. I'm happy I did it. I'm happy that I have my two. But I never felt the that joy. I, I think that that's okay. And we we need to talk about that too, because there's so much of the conversation of either most of the conversation, of course, being that pregnancy is this like magical thing, especially for people like myself who experienced infertility is is like pregnancy is the greatest ideal. It's what you spend all this money. It's what you spent all this time to achieve and for you to not enjoy. It is just, you know, the the pinnacle of ungratefulness. So I think that is especially true for, um, the current day and age when so many of us are kind of struggling to get the ones who want to get pregnant, are struggling to get pregnant. Um, that there's kind of this mentality that you had better enjoy it. Um, and then there's starting to be some conversation around the very far other end of some of the really terrible things, but to also just sort of talk about and normalize the large number of us who are just like, it's fine, you know, we got a baby at the end of it. It was good. Glad that I tried it. It was an interesting thing, and I didn't love every second of it. I did not feel like I glowed. I didn't glow much. Yeah. Yeah. If I can ask, was there anything else that in the whole post, pregnancy experience, especially around sex, that you feel like you were surprised by or nobody really talked about beforehand? I did have some hint that this was going to happen, but the way that the milk starts coming out during sex is very. It did take to wearing a bra during sex. Sometimes I'm like, this isn't my kink, I don't know. I had a friend who told me they're like, oh, my husband starts going down there and he loves the milk. And so at some point I have to tell him to stop because I'm like, this is foreplay. This is not like snack time. Yeah. Huh. So I had read one book before where there was a scene where, like, the guy started drinking the girl's milk, and I think I did too, and I that was off putting for me, I don't know. Yeah. It's not it's not my partner's thing to want to drink the milk at all. And so it's just I guess I could have worn a bra instead. I was just like, yeah, mine neither. And I just felt like it was a weird thing for me too. Especially because then you go, you know, just really the titties being involved at all in that stage when you have the baby feeding? Because I just don't. I kind of wanted that to be its its own, its own separate thing and really keep them out of the conversation entirely while I was breastfeeding. I just like to have some clear boundaries in those kinds of cases. I think it's unfair. You know, there will always be those listicles that are like ten things nobody ever told you about what it's like to be pregnant or what it's like to have sex after pregnancy. Um, and to be honest, first of all, if it is a listicle in BuzzFeed, then somebody did tell you and it's right there. And so I think part of it is not mainstream conversation, but also that this information is out there. But I didn't even know what to seek out or um, I don't know. It's kind of like people tell you and you don't want to fully believe them, because some of this stuff is just really hard to wrap your head around until it's happening to you. Um, but for one that I straight up didn't nobody talked to me about, including my ob gyn. Uh, was the importance of the pelvic floor therapist. And I think when I finally went to my ob gyn with issues that I was having after pregnancy, she was like, oh, you need a pelvic floor therapist. But I feel like I've talked to so many women that we do have casual conversations about all the ways that our pelvic floor is not okay after pregnancy. And obviously, they should just give you the card for a pelvic floor therapist on your way out the door, the same way that they're pushing you to get right back on birth control. They should be just giving you the card for the pelvic floor therapist, because I know so few people who didn't need one for some reason. Even if you had a C-section, there can be ways that you are affected that you need that therapy, that just basic things like, hey, if you're going to be breastfeeding, you might not have used lube before, but you might need it during that period because this is what happens and you don't don't make it feel like you're not into your partner or anything like that. It's just like the reality of like what hormones are happening right now. I know, very true. If they just kind of put that as part of the standard, like you get a little brochure and you're welcome, baby basket with a little sample packet of lube on it, I feel like that would help normalize it, because there are going to be so many women who aren't going to come to their doctor asking about it. I mean, this might be a case where I feel actually positive about Doctor Google and the internet because people will Google it, and I feel like you're going to find that information then, but it would just normalize it a whole lot more if that was just kind of part of these sorts of things, not just that, but that's a really good example of one that talking about the ways that it's going to potentially affect sex after pregnancy is great, especially since they obviously know that people are doing it since they're pushing the birth control so they know they could give you some more pro tips. When I think about myself now and when I think about myself before pregnancy, you know, I've always had a very healthy sexual relationship with my partner. You know, now I'm a big reader. Before I was watching more videos, uh, that it was always, you know, a big thing for me or, you know, some not a big, but it was some part of my identity. Like Kelly's very, very comfortable with that stuff. And it's something that, you know, habits multiple days a week, all that. And then after pregnancy and really for those first few years when I had a the first kid and then the second kid right after, it kind of stopped becoming as big a part of my life, you know, again, I was there, I was partner, but it's really only now that, like, my kids are a little bit older, my body feels back to myself, that I feel like I'm reclaiming that part of myself that just, I don't know, I just didn't have the drive or the energy as much to be. Yeah. And if you think of it as one of your love languages or for your partner as one of their love languages, then I think that that can be a particularly difficult one, because there are just physical reasons that that sex at least can be off the table. And I think sometimes it's hard to think of other kinds of physical intimacy as really measuring up in the same way. Um, but when you think about other kinds of ways that people give and receive love, those are things that you can do regardless of where you're at physically and what is happening with your body and babies. So I think that that was for us like a particularly hard one, because it then if that's the way that you most want to give and receive love and it's kind of off the table, or at least in the way that you're used to expressing it, then that's kind of the rug being pulled out from under your feet. Uh, in terms of how. And you're just feeling less loved. Especially for men. Um, because I think that that's a very common love language for men, and it's stacked up on another thing that I feel like people are kind of uncomfortable to talk about. They'll talk about it with older children or pets, of that feeling of, oh, you're having moms love, you know, pulled away from you because she's having to divide it between more things, especially this one that's very needy. But I think that that happens to male partners, too, that they're not going through the same thing physically that you're going through. And then if that's an important love language for them, that that's kind of being pulled out right at a time when they're feeling a little bit left out. And most of them aren't going to say that because that feels really selfish to say. But if it's honest, then it's something that that you should talk about. Emily Oster, who did a survey of 26,000 women. I'm sorry, there was 96% women, but there was a little 4% or 5% men in there. It was one of her parent data articles, and she showed that there's really significant variation by what age your children are. And so when your age or when the age the kids are younger, it's, you know, the reported sexual frequency is lower. And then the older your kids get, the even though you're getting older and older people, their sex time slightly decreases. You're having more and more. And yes, going with that, men were more likely to say that they're not having enough sex than women, which isn't surprising. Yeah. What does that look like for you, Kelly, with that thing? Because I think that's already for a lot of couples, the mismatch going into having children is that's a pretty common thing for the man in a hetero relationship to look for sex more often than the woman. And then when you have children enter the picture and the woman is bearing the physical burden of all of this, and that drops down even lower, then you're looking at this bigger divide. I think a lot of that have a lot of us have experienced firsthand what that that can look like and how you dealt with it. Yes. So a good sign to me that we were getting back to our usual, uh, our usual back and forth with each other was that I, before kids, was more likely to be the initiator. I'm more likely to want a little bit more. And then, you know, we had the period where pretty consistently. It was initiator and something that I do when I want to initiate. But my partner's mind is somewhere different and this is where you really don't want to be driving some, you know, with your father in law or something like that. If you were driving with your father in law now, you should stop. Yeah, unless you're very comfortable with him. But I put I take his I go down on his like soft as a joke and I go, oh my God, you're so big in my mouth. I'm so keen. Oh my gosh, like how soft you are. This is, this is so doing it for me. Like, oh my God, I make this like really, really big deal out of it so that we're both, um, it makes it that we're both laughing hard enough that even if we were in a state when our kids were stressing us out or just different things in our minds weren't there, because it's really hard to have two people whose minds are both there when you're working parents. Uh, it would snap us out of it, because even though we were laughing, we were technically doing something sexual that would eventually get to the point that that we were both, you know, ready? Yeah. But another thing that my partner does is that it can be middle of the day, full connectivity. And he'll be like, let's have sex right now. And it's like, okay, well, we have a three and a five year old. Do you want to talk about how that's going to happen? And he's like, we're going to like sneak up the stairs and then we're going to lock the door. And you know, it's exciting enough that that it works for me. Uh, so we go up and then we lock the door and I can tell you, if, you know, my kids, one of them particularly, uh, is a little, a little clingy, doesn't like to be outside of my, you know, like a three foot circumference from his. From his parents. I just gave up who it is. And you can just hear them, like, where's mommy? Where's mommy? And then they start coming up and they're trying to find. And then they're knocking on the door frantically. Um, and it's like, you know, it's like Mortal Kombat, like finisher. Yes. I mean, it's that, like, you have to we have to run and hide and do it, but in a very different context than probably most of the romance novels, but still creating that same sense of urgency and forbidden love, which I love for you. I have to be honest and say we pretty much have never tried while the kids are awake because yeah, our kids are just, uh, sneaky little ninjas and, I don't know, house with thin floors. And the particular worst situation of, like, when my partner gets eager, uh, my mother in law and her boyfriend were both staying in our house, and it was during the middle of the day, and the kids were playing with her. And so he's like, now's our time. Like. And all of a sudden the kids are like, wait a second, I've noticed my parents aren't here. So then they're knocking and the mother in law is like, hey, I think they need you. And it's like, now, did she figure out what was going on? Do you think? I would hope that she wouldn't even realize that we could have possibly been in the mood and had that happening then. But I think I you know, those happen those feel like, again, to me, those are signs like, okay, we're in like an okay, healthy place now with that. But there were times when in those like first six months or so after having kids, that when my partner tried to initiate, I'd be like, I'm never going to say no, because it's like pizza to me. Like it's always going to be working out. Like I'm always going to be happy afterwards, but like, I'm going to be like, I'm basically just going to like, lie here just so, you know, like I don't have the energy or interest in, in, in doing more. I think it's just your, your touch, like, you know, you're breastfeeding and then you have a toddler or another kid who's touching you? And I remember my mom, and I'm from a big family. When I went to give her a hug one time, she's like, I can't take another human touching me right now. And she had to. She was breastfeeding and she had another younger kid at the time. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. How can you not want me to hug you? And now I get it. I think that your mom was naming. I feel like the phrase touched out kind of came into use during our motherhood years. So I feel like that was very self-aware of your mom to be defining that sensation. Even before that was something that we were commonly talking about. But it is so real. And I think hard to explain, especially just the sense of overwhelm. And it's the touched out. It's the just too much noise and stimulation of every kind. And then I find myself more than I used to, just really looking forward to having peace and quiet. Um, which is not sexy, but it has just become such a valuable commodity when you have so little of it. And again, trying to find ways to get that without feeling non-intimate or pulling away from your partner. But at the same time, when it is, especially if you are, you know, in a situation where there's just not the layout in your house or you're not the the sneaky ninjas that you and your partner are. We are not. We are not. I mean, you must have been Kelly. Your mother in law was there. I am just saying, I'm very impressed. This is not something that that the average couple is trying. Um, so then I think for a lot of us, that kind of leaves after bedtime. And for a lot of kids, you know, it's like, oh, bedtime is 8:00, but realistically, when are they actually asleep and out of bed? And then you take a little moment to yourself and then it's pretty much your bedtime. Um, so I think that there's that bit too about that. It feels like something that is just one more thing that has to be scheduled, um, or that has to be fit in. That's just part of the like, okay. Like I have to change the baby's diaper. I have to bathe them and then I have to do this. You know that. It's just one more on kind of this. I have to again of your body belonging to other people, that it's like all these needs that you need to satisfy for other people before you can get to yourself. And that's even if it is very like mutually enjoyable sex. But I think just the idea that it's physically exhausting is sometimes all you want to do is lie down. I do, I try to say yes with like that go that. It's like a workout. Always happy when it's done. After the five K in the sun on Sunday, when an attempt was made to initiate, I was like, no, the energy is not there. I'm dehydrated like there is no. I cannot foresee a way that this is going to be enjoyable for me, so I can't. I'd rather like accidentally walk in on you masturbating than me. Do this right now. I honestly feel relieved to know that you do have your boundary at some point, because when you were saying even after childbirth, you were still just like, I'm not going to say no. Like I might not be that excited about it. I know I definitely said no. Yeah. And also, just again, and this is why, in my case, I didn't realize how much that these I think that you just kind of get this idea, especially because a lot of us are descended from, um, women or part of cultures that are very like, you just kind of keep a stiff upper lip, you know, and, and these are just things that are part of or with Christianity, too. I think the idea that the pain in childbirth is Eve's punishment, or that sex is not really supposed to be pleasurable for women anyway, um, that there was just this assumption built in. I think that kind of like, okay, this is just how your body is now. Um, so the fact that it didn't occur to me immediately when I was experiencing pain from the stitches and the tearing that I'd had, I think my first assumption was like, okay, like, this is just how sex feels now. Um, and that it took like a while. And I think, honestly, my partner pushing me a little bit to be like, I don't think that this is normal and there is some there should be something that you could do. It was a year after that, I finally then I said to my ob gyn and they were like, oh yeah, you could talk to a pelvic floor therapist. Um, and I kind of figured it was hopeless at that point because if they then I thought, oh, well, if I was going to do something, you probably had to do it right away after, because now I have all this scar tissue. Scar work is amazing. She said that she's worked with people, um, you know, five, ten years post childbirth, and she's still able to do work on the scar tissue and deal with those kinds of issues. Other issues. She was kind of like, it's never too late to to come in and talk to a pelvic floor therapist. So this episode is not actually a podcast. It's just my lengthy, uh, commercial for everybody going to see a pelvic floor therapist for peeing your pants when you laugh. Pain during sex. I don't know, I think there's a bunch of other things too, that a whole year, a whole year, it was so bad, it was so painful. And I did say no a lot of times, and it was honestly just all mixed up with like, the low sex drive, the fact that, like, I was kind of ready to just take a year off from that part of my body in general. But, um, a years long time, there was an article published in 2021 by Girsu. Sorry if I mispronounced that, uh, Vizzini and Quatraro that looked at sex around childbirth, and it found that about like over two thirds and up to 94% of pregnancy and birthing women experience some form of sexual dysfunction, decreased sex drive, and and orgasm difficulty. Um, and that is, you know, again, just something that if it were out there shared, like, hey, this is likely to happen. You are not alone. There are some tools like pelvic floor therapists that again, your partner or you might not be used to using lube and you might need it. Just like these things that we can do to make it. And also just, you know, taking a break from it and saying it's I'm not feeling it right now. Or you can, you know, read the book by Emily Nagoski about your brakes and accelerators and so that your husband can think a little bit about your accelerators and your brakes and how to make sure that, you know, if, if he wants it, that we're thinking a lot about how to accelerate that. You know, that is true, because I think also, for a lot of us, the way that you were saying before children, it was just more effortless, especially if you are somebody who just, you know, feels comfortable, you know, expressing Expresses yourself sexually like that's not something that you're you're struggling with. And then it's as if it's been easy. Then I think that that can be particularly it's not something that you would think of first as like, oh, I have to delve into these questions of kind of like, what are my breaks and my accelerators? Because before, if it's just kind of like it happens, it's great. It's always fun. Like when the mood strikes me, I, I, I move on it. Um, so I think especially for people and couples that have not experienced any hang ups around sex, it's probably an even harder thing, because that wasn't my first go to either, was to think about like, oh, I need to like, research this or diagnose this or try different things of, you know what? What I didn't need to think about before kids that are kinds of things that you need to think about differently and actually put thought into and not just do instinctively, I guess. Yeah, I actually really like that, maybe as something that I think I would feel comfortable sharing to a close friend or a sister or something like that who hadn't had kids before about, you know, not just the hey, warnings that you might be dry warnings this, but warnings that you might have to be a lot more intentional, and to ask your partner to be a lot more intentional about taking the time. And that might take, you know, 30 minutes sounds like, you know, not arbitrary, but, you know, it might even take just like throughout the day, making sure like, did you know, did you get a break? Did you get a nap? Did you get all these different things that you need to? Then when, when, when you do have some alone time with your partner, you're ready. Um, that is so true about just the other physical needs getting met. What is the thing? The halt or whatever, you know, the hungry, angry, lonely type, but that they kind of have you stop. And a lot of times I experienced that with other kinds of things where it's just, I can't deal with regular shit that comes up in my day and I'm like, this is so terrible. And then I'm like, oh, well, shit, I didn't eat breakfast. Like, of course everything is awful right now and I can't deal with the slightest provocation. Um, and I think that that's true again, when so much of your day, the first priority is taking care of a person who really can't take care of themselves at all. And then you're being met with, oh, well, I have to make sure that my partner feels like they're loved. Um, the the thing that's first falling by the wayside is your own needs. And so, yeah, I think sometimes even going back to things that are as simple as, like, are you eating all the meals that you need to in the day, which when you're breastfeeding is a lot more than three? Um, you know, are you finding ways to get enough sleep, which might again look different than what your life used to of just like, okay, I have to be like in bed by ten and, and then I can wake up feeling refreshed at 630, maybe before you were. So you were confident in how you looked and your body and all that. So you knew that your partner was interested. But even just throughout the day now, like your body looks so different or sorry for some people, it bounces back fast. For some people like me, it bounces back slow that, you know, compliments like, hey, you look really hot, I can't wait for later. That can go a long way to making you feel like, yes, I can't wait for this. Um, yeah. It's funny how it, like, all changes your views on things because I'm a big romantic reader, so fantasy worlds. And for those of us who read romantic, Sarah J. Maas is like the most popular women's author for them. And she has this character, Farrah. And Farrah loves Reese and this whole thing that when they finally get together and they're married, they talk a bit about how they have their whole lives, their, you know, immortal, and there's no rush to having kids. And then they change that, and she ends up having a kid when she's 21. And this felt like such a betrayal to me. I was like, ah, she's going to live to be like a mortal human. And I waited till it was, I was 30, like, go have some fun, girl. Yeah, it felt like the least sexy thing that could have possibly happened. Was this person getting pregnant when she was 21. And it made me want to go back and look at the author's age when she wrote that and what kids she had, because it would have been so clear. It's like, oh, we don't want to get. Yeah, unless like, you're totally changing the character and, you know, just making way for the others. Because to me, having a kid for a partnership that is new and is young and all that, and there's no clock on the way, there's no time. If I had advice, it would be to wait longer. I don't know, you know, do what's right for you. But I think that a few years of being married before having kids would have been awesome. Yeah, it's a good counterpoint to all the all the language that we get around your biological clock ticking. And I think I've, I've known so many women who feel pressured to start trying for kids quickly after marriage. Whether they got married in their early 20s or, or more into your 30s. And obviously they get really does start to come into play more as you as you progress through your 30s. But at the same time, I think that there's so much language around all the benefits to starting having kids as quickly as you feel like you're in a situation that that could happen for you. Um, that it's helpful to have some counterpoints of if you do feel like waiting is right for you, or you're kind of balancing some of the pros and cons that we should also talk about some of the pros of waiting a little bit longer in terms of having that stability in your relationship, where you've gone through a lot of hard stuff together because like you're going to go through some way harder stuff really, really hard once you have kids. And so, yeah, if you haven't learned how to navigate, um, and obviously, like, life comes at you and you figure it out, but I think that that's a great benefit if you have the choice to be able to get to know each other, experience different situations. Um, and also for yourself, both in terms of your confidence, in terms of kind of knowing what that playbook is for yourself a little bit more, um, sexually with kind of reclaiming your pleasure and your boundaries and what you want. I think if you have more experience with that, um, then you kind of have more things, more plays that you can run in your playbook, um, that, that exist as options for you. That's and I remember that when I was getting married, it was always planned to start trying to have kids. Like as soon as, you know, getting the IUD pulled, like right after the wedding. And part of that was very Catholic of you, Kelly. It felt like my friend group. It was actually like a friend group thing where I lived in Howard County at the time, and all of them were, you know, getting pregnant, having babies. So if anything, I felt like I was behind the curve and I was like, oh gosh, we're going to start right away. So our kids are in the same years and all that. And I had a colleague who told I had actually multiple work colleagues who told me, that's the mistake. Trust me, your friend group is going to look entirely different when you have kids anyways. You're going to end up, yeah, people who live by you, who go to the same schools as you, um, same groups do. Like, please do not do that. Please take a few years and I didn't listen to them. And guess what? In terms of that friend group who I felt the pressure from in Howard County, not that the pressure was from them, I literally have seen, I think, zero of them in the last year. Yeah, it sounds like that, um, volleyball high school volleyball team that made the pregnancy pack together, but not quite as extreme. And I don't know if anybody's checked in with them recently and how how that's working out for them. But it is very true. And I think that's another thing that you can't really fully understand until you are living it. But the kind of new community that sprouts up around you. And we talk about this a lot, especially because I think we live in a urban neighborhood that is just very, um, you know, kind of families all living next to each other and sharing things and sending kids over to each other's houses and things like that. But I think wherever, whatever that looks like in the in the place that you live, that that does start to sprout up and that it will look different, um, from your pre-kid friend group. But also, I want to give a shout out here to, um, the friends with no kids. I know I was reading, uh, some advice column, and it was somebody. You were the strongest curator of that group. I just want to say I. I have so many friends. Yes, this is my personal this is my personal soapbox, because I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, I'm like a parent now, so I gotta, like, have other parent friends and like, have play dates and things like that. Uh, which is not to say that we don't have I mean, I love those things. Those are awesome. But I think some of my closest friends are my childless friends because they can show up for you in a way that, like sometimes your mom friends do not have the bandwidth. And I just would never ask them these things. Or it's just like if I do randomly end up with six month old right now, like, and I, I love babies, I just don't even have it in me. I can't, I don't, and it's like if I randomly have childcare on a Thursday night and I'm like, I want to go out. I mean, I will certainly text the mom friend group. And maybe out of that, you know, one of them will also spontaneously be able to leave her kids with her partner. But realistically, I just kind of love having that group that, I mean, I'm not with them all the time, but sometimes when I do have that random childcare and I'll just text them and be like, what are y'all doing tonight? And they're going out. They're just like having happy hour after work or something. And so that's really grounding for me. And I do have time socially with the mom friends where we we plenty talk about non children. Uh, this being a great example of course Kelly. Um, but it is a guaranteed like if I want to break from talking about and thinking about kids, I don't have to talk about them once with with that group. So yeah. You sold pelvic therapy and yes, friends without kids. This is actually my commercial. Yes. For keeping strong. Your childless friends and childless friends. That sounds negative. Yeah. Friends without kids. Friends who don't have kids and have hobbies and disposable income in lieu of kids, which is awesome. And I like having a little dose of that from time to time. Also good travel partners. Um, yeah, that's I was talking I was talking about this to a few different friends. This thing about sex after pregnancy and something that I heard, um, is how much and, you know, just to put it in very blunt terms, how much they hated their husbands in the first six months after pregnancy. And it was funny how it was worded because it was like, my husband is wonderful. They're extremely helpful. They did everything I could possibly ask. Something took over my emotions that wasn't me. And it the fights that we would get in and the things I would get mad about are things I wouldn't even think to mention today. And how important it is to know your partner and that your partner knows you beforehand. Yeah. Yeah. So that you can weather that. And just I think for those of us who had marriages previously or relationships previously that were, um, not just sort of a sense of egalitarianism, but were pretty equal of that, you did have kind of more of that, like, okay, I take out the trash and then you take out the trash. Like, if I wash the dishes last night, you wash the dishes this night and that everything is just like divided down the middle 50 over 50, Or let's be honest, maybe not quite 50 over 50, but but they're trying to then go into a situation where it is just literally impossible to split some of these things down the middle. And then I think, like the total pie, that total share of all the things that needs to get done explodes when you have kids. So even if a the male partner is trying harder to pick up more. I think there's also the sense that it's like, yeah, maybe you're picking up like 20% more than you were before, but I feel like I'm picking up 200% more. And that's partially because I'm throwing out numbers here about things that are very unquantifiable. And so, you know, having your body physically given over to nurturing another human. Um, yeah. Like losing that sense of of what your body is and in ways that are sometimes permanent, that is something that's hard to stack up against. Even if you have this partner who is very like, makes you muffins to have a little basket of muffins next to you while you're breastfeeding. It feels very hard all of a sudden to my partner, but sounds great partner. It might have been mine. Honestly, it's all a blur. He definitely does that now. I think that also he was going through so much emotionally and this kind of transition in roles and identity does impact men too. And I'm not saying this in a way that's like, oh, why don't we like, pay more attention to the men? But sometimes they're kind of not doing great. Um, and I know that the things out there about kind of like the male postpartum stuff, um, in one hand, I'm kind of like, okay, give me a break. Um, but on the other, you know, they are going through a transition in identity, too. To me, it's more of that kind of, um, concentric circles methodology that they talk about with grief and other kinds of things. But it really can be for any kind of shit that's going down is you, you know, kind of put care and love inward to the circles. And then, uh, to the person who's in the middle. Do you know about this one, Kelly? I don't. So it comes from grief counseling, and the idea is that it's a bunch of concentric circles. And the person to whom it happened, or people are in the Centermost circle, and then the people who are closer to them are in the next circle out. So it's like, if if somebody's husband dies, then the, the wife and the widow and the kids are in that middle circle, and then the immediate family and close friends and then, you know, everyone's kind of in circles going out from there. And if you are interacting with anybody in this situation, if they're in a inner circle than you, you are just like, what do you need? I'm going to help you. And if you have your own grief to process because you also knew that person, then you process your grief outwards. So you pick somebody who's in a circle outside of the one that you're in. So for the people in the middle, everybody is in a circle outside of you. But if you're more kind of in the like third ring, then you're providing support to the more inner ring people and, um, processing your grief and your trauma outward to somebody who's in an outer more circle than you. That makes sense. Nobody's coming to the dad's like, hey, you're going through a big adjustment. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then I think where this I mean, this is just like a really helpful way to think about a lot of things, um, that anytime, like, people are going through shit basically is like, whoever's closest to the shit that's going down just needs the care and is not an appropriate place for you to be dumping your trauma. Um, and I think that with the dads, that that's probably a really apt one, because for a lot of men, especially where it's like they don't have the friend group, that they talk about their feelings in the way that women did. For a lot of them, the main place that they would process their shit is with their wife. And that's the one person that you shouldn't be processing your shit with. So my personal theory is that it gets a lot more bottled up because suddenly they have dealt with this whole identity shift, but they've also lost the one outlet where they would normally be processing their shit or they are doing that, in which case that is like even worse. And they're there like trauma dumping on their wife, you know, like the guys in the delivery room that are like, oh, I am just like feeling so hot and uncomfortable in here, and you're squeezing my hand too hard. This did not that did not happen to me. But yeah, uh, my partner did not enjoy watching the C-section. He's like, you don't even know what they do down there, Kelly. I kind of don't blame them. And in general, um, I appreciated, uh, this is if I'm going to do commercials in this episode, I would also say commercial for having a doula. That was really helpful for us. And a lot of it was to just kind of help us with the decision making around things as mundane as I guess if you are delivering vaginally, it's common to offer to let the dad help. Um, and I think for some dads that that's great, that they like to feel useful and helpful. Um, and they asked partner if he wanted to hold a leg while I was pushing, and our doula, having discussed this with him beforehand and knowing that he was like, I don't want anything to do with the business end of things, um, which I kind of get because it's like, you got to go back there for fun times eventually. So just seeing the World War three carnage being laid out in front of you is, again, not conducive to our earlier conversations of ever resuming sexy time. So I totally get that. Um, but he was also felt very strongly that he wanted to stand by my head and hold my hand, feed me ice chips. And to be perfectly honest, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, women have given birth around other women that are close to them that have experienced childbirth before. So when your main person in the room is your male partner who has been through this exactly the same number of times as you, probably not the best person to be able to coach you through it, to be able to be. I mean, my partner wanted to be helpful, but he also, I think, would have been very happy if he could have just like been in another room, 1950s style, you know, ready to hand out cigars. I think I had had this from some friends too, that when they are faced with really difficult questions, that you and your partner are both kind of like deer in the headlights about it because you're like, I don't know, I'm not a professional. I've never done this before. Um, so we definitely appreciated having someone else there. And then for me, it was nice also, just because, yeah, my husband didn't know what he was doing and that's fair. He had never done it before. Why would he know what he was doing? But he was also just like very, uh, overwhelmed to the point of maybe being useless because I think there was a point in pushing that I just got like very quiet when they were like, okay, like, this is these are the pushes that are making the baby's head move out. I just became very inwardly focused on like, push that fucking baby out. And he was like, I was so worried about you. I thought that you were like, on the verge of some terrible medical thing happening because I've never heard you be quiet before. And you were so fucking quiet. And he's like, you just looked like you were, you know, in another, your body was being taken over by a biological force. And I'm like, dude, basically it was like this was a very reasonable response. And I was like, fine, in as much as I can recall it now, which I'm sure has my brain like painting over a lot of the really traumatic parts. Um, but yeah, on the TV show younger, which is amazing. Um, one of the lesbian characters happens to go with for a different woman's childbirth, not her own, and she had to go to a support group for people who weren't interested in vaginas, but were interested in vaginas after watching them. And it was surrounded by by dads, and they were like there was an arm coming out of there. An arm like a little arm. Yeah, that's that's an alien shit. Like, again, back to your first point, Kelly, about the magic of pregnancy. If it is magical for you, then that is great. But. Like those experiences where you could see, like a little foot poking through the side of your belly when the baby kicked you and stuff, that to me, that's just like, I mean, it's it's scientifically, intellectually cool, but it also gave me the heebie jeebies. And I think that that's okay. Five months pregnant. That's probably a good time. You're, you know, between the two trimesters and your bump is cute but not too big. That that time was nice. I didn't really need the rest of it, though. My one friend's husband, uh, described, uh, they were in the middle of having sex while she was pregnant with their son, and he derailed things by saying, is this your first time having two men inside you? Uh. Who? No one's ever forgotten that. Yeah. It's like, I don't want to think about the little man in there. Yeah, especially. I think I have heard that it is a common thing that men worry about is that they are going to hit the baby while they are thrusting. And I'm like, this goes back to the number of men who think that they could beat Venus Williams in a tennis match. Just, you know, the number of men that think that they're so well endowed that they're going to hit their baby in the head. And also, just again, to the whole men need to have you need to have sex ed about the opposite sexes anatomy. So it's a number of reasons. And like a recent book that I read, problematic Summer Romance by Ali Hazelwood, uh, something that happened was that while they were having sex, the the guy, like, pushed her, pushed down on her stomach so that she could feel his dick within her stomach while she was going in and out. And I've never personally tried that. And maybe I have like too much of a layer, but I feel like how big was this guy? Like you actually once or am I like, is that is this am I thinking. I don't know. He's like jostling her lower intestines to the side. I feel like this sounds like a very male fantasy. It showed up a few different times in different books. That's the most recent. But I'm like, you can put your hand on your stomach and feel, I don't know. I think, yeah, maybe this is for very waifish women, I don't know. I'll report back. I never tried this before. Well, if you told me, oh, you can't feel it, then I would feel like we need to scratch this part from the record, because I would have to be like, oh, I'm sorry, Danny. I admitted that you can't feel you through my stomach walls. So large that you're not permeating my entire being. Yeah, we're not, like, risking a perforation over here. Yeah. I mean, I feel like most, you know, this thing about this fantasy about men that is very male generated about just like having the hugest guy possible of like having it actually like hit the cervix is like again, things were like sex begins to overlap with, uh, medical procedures. I just don't need that. And yeah, for me, that can also be the case with fingering sometimes because I feel like it has to be done well. Otherwise I feel like I'm just getting, like, some kind of cervical exam. Oh, the high school? Yeah, the high school. Like, how far up there can I. Yeah. You're like, that's not the point. That's not the point. Don't even really have to be in there. And if you are in just like three inch few inches, nothing crazy. Yeah, yeah. We're not we're not performing an exam. We're not. Yeah. You want to learn about the female anatomy? Go do that in health class. Oh my gosh, I'm about to actually fight you because there's no way that you've ever read a book where this has happened or thought about it. But do you know how dogs. Um, not. No. Okay, so when a dog, is it too late for me to get off this ride? Dog is having sex with another dog, and I'm bringing this back. Okay, wait. I just need to pause first and say, is this knowledge that you gained from smut, or is this like medical knowledge that you have? So, um, I will. So. Oh, you will elaborate knowledge I knew until two weeks ago. I'll say that. So when a dog has sex with another dog, it, like part of the penis expands within the female dog so that the female dog can't get away for, like, 20 minutes or so. Yeah. They're stuck. So it comes and like, if you watch it, like I asked one of my friends who grew up on a farm and she's like extremely tough to watch when the female dog is not into it and is trying to get away. Ah, so there is a thing in romantic and I read my first one a few weeks ago, and then I looked it up like, what is nodding? Like, there's no way anybody wants this. And there are people who requested, like, I would like a book where there's nodding. I would like a book where there's nodding and the female partner is not into it. I would like humans, dogs, centaurs. Like, what are we talking about here? Werewolves. Werewolves. Werewolves. That makes more sense. Okay. Yeah. Yes. And into the book by Ali Hazelwood. Um, to the book's credit, the the guy did, like, make himself big so she could see beforehand that she was going to have the nod, and she agreed to it. So it was consensual nodding. But I was so shocked because it just goes into the same thing of like, guys being huge and all that. That's like, no part of me wants some extra part to expand and trap me for like 20 to 30 minutes. Well, and this is where I think that for some of the like porn and smut and things like this that I've also heard about, like nodding, I was just surprised. Sure. Like not judging if that's what you like. And I think again, this is like where sometimes people go to live out things that are attractive but also feel taboo that they don't actually necessarily want or they want to kind of test the boundaries of. Is that something that I want by just experiencing it through reading about it or watching it, which is also okay. I heard that about like 50 Shades of Grey. I mean, obviously there is literature out there for people who are like actually into BDSM, that's that's like that kind of literature. And so 50 Shades of Grey was meant to be very much for like people who are like, oh, this is titillating because I would never do that in real life. So it's also kind of a healthy way to test some things out. And hopefully the people getting nodded and nodding are not trying to test it out in reality with an animal that that that would be the only part that that there might be some, some judgment from the Good Girls podcast towards. Yeah, yeah, leave the animals out of it. Yeah. Leave the animals out of it. But I think maybe and maybe this does tie into this episode rather than being a tangent, because it could be a helper for fertility. Who knows? Yeah. I mean, the whole thing about how I've been rewatching The Handmaid's Tale, which is not a topic for a sexy podcast because nothing about the sex on that show is a turn on. Or is it meant to be, um, one where, um, Alexis, the guy's like, get out of here. Alexis Bledel's character is like, I'm supposed to lay on the bed afterwards, and then she just lays there and let it soak in. Yeah. Nobody's done, like, the candlestick after sex when they're trying to get pregnant. They're like, yes, let it sink into me. But I do remember reading, um, in some science magazine, the this is not as exciting as the dog werewolf penises and nodding, but that the shape of the male penis is actually of the human male penis is actually evolved so that it can kind of act as like a plunger, which is why we have that, like head shape. Um, so that if a woman is having sex with a variety of partners, that your, you will kind of toilet plunger out the previous person's inputs so that your guys have a better chance of success. Fascinating. Yeah. Well, now I got to go back and find this article because I read it a few years ago, but I don't know, somehow the image, the the like, uh, dick plunger image really just stuck with me. I think I think about it sometimes. That's funny because when you first. When you first said about the head, I was thinking about how it would help that like the cum had less chances to escape because it's a little bigger than the shaft. But now I'm thinking about, well, I guess double duty, right? So that you're like, shooting forward your own. And if there's any residuals from anybody else, you're just, uh. I'm making a plunger motion here, but, you know, you're just kind of plunging that right out. Oh, my. That's that's kind of amazing. Okay, I feel like we can't end on that, so. Okay, so to conclude this episode we're going to fake scenario. You run into a woman who you care about who's pregnant for the first time, and she asks you about any advice on what to expect when it comes to sex. So the first thing that comes to mind for me is the thing that I kept saying for this episode is, uh, just normalize talking to a pelvic floor therapist. And then I learned from a friend that you can start talking to a pelvic floor therapist, and there are things that you can be doing before you have the baby. So just start talking to a pelvic floor therapist now. Find, find and befriend one. How about you, Kelly? I think, and you helped bring this home to me. And I'm really thankful for it, is that you might need to be a little bit more intentional about sex, and that would continue on for years after having a child where you're not going to probably be as ready to go as you are now, and it's going to take a little bit more intentionality from you and your partner throughout the day for making sure that you know that you're ready and that you're excited to have it, instead of it ever feeling like something that's forced upon you. Um, and also that you might not feel sexy right afterwards. You might be really, really caught off guard by the changes in your body. But there is hope out there because I can say I feel sexier and hotter than ever, even though my stomach is still an outie and seems to always going to be an Audi. But I was able to eventually reclaim my body. And as it is today, which is different after having two kids and that's fine. Yeah. And that I think that it's just really helpful for kind of getting, you know, the thing that we've always been trying to do is not care about some magazine cover idea of what our bodies should look like. I think that getting your priorities shifted a little bit, and going through that can really help with actually making that change, and that I just think about my body more than I ever did before. So both in, you know, thinking about what I like and what I need during sex, but also on just taking care of it, um, exercising. Kelly and I go to the gym together, and I feel like for myself, I'm in better shape than I was in college. And I was an athlete then, but also a binge drinker. And I ate breakfast cereal at every meal. So, um, yeah, I think that it's it's possible. And this is something that women in our generation and recent generations have been growing around so much is this idea that it's not like, oh, there's this part of your life that's just over. Once you have kids and you become a mom and you wear mom jeans and you're not hot anymore. I do wear mom jeans, but I wear them as a fashion statement, and I wear Levi's, and I feel very hot in them. Oh, and also, ooh, this is a quick little important thing you might need. Jeans. That button after having a baby. Because your your stomach is now a little bit of an Audi. And so jeans that zip you might find that the zip just comes right undone. So buttons for those of us without Audi. Also the wide range of beautiful elastic waist pants that are super cute and don't look like sweatpants. I kind of just abandoned the whole. I used to wear a lot of pencil skirts to work before, and then I was like, why am I doing this to myself? So I really just expanded my wardrobe into pants that are cute but have stretchy waists and can accommodate curves. And also never ever Google search or search on Reddit. What is nodding? If you are in a work environment or around this father in law who's always lingering in this world, this is good final advice to leave us with father in law. By the way, there's one thing you do after this episode. It is to not do that. Yes, do not look up nodding. Well, thanks for listening to everybody.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":3,"createdAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.640Z","updatedAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.640Z"},{"id":2,"title":"Real Sex Ed","slug":"real-sex-ed","description":"Today, we talk about the gloriously weird, wildly inconsistent, and often hilariously unhelpful sex ed we got growing up. From purity rings to Pop Rocks, tampon confusion to Cosmo tips involving ice cubes and questionable wine pairings, we're diving headfirst into the beautiful chaos of early sexual knowledge. This is not your grandma's sex ed (unless your grandma was really cool and into sentient vibrating objects—more on that later). So join us as we dream up what sex ed could be—less fear, more fun, and a whole lot of consent, curiosity, and valuing foreplay. Let's talk about sex, baby. PS - This is our first ever episode, and the audio is a little...meh! Stick around until episode 4, and you will be rewarded for your loyalty with better audio and a visit from Sexy Satan Wielding a Vibrator, himself.","spotifyEmbedId":"1PW9QmMV3ISKKBWTiWkazF","releaseDate":"August 12, 2025","duration":"55 minutes","topics":["Sexual health","Education","Pleasure","Communication"],"transcript":"Recorded August 8, 2025: Our opening prompt for today's episode, what was your version of the talk? Oh my goodness. Like I don't remember. And I would say that to give my oh, I was gonna say parents to give my mom credit. My dad had nothing to do with any of these conversations. Uh, there was more than one talk. So it was the thing that I feel like you're supposed to do where you kind of socialize the idea and talk about it in advance. Um, so that was a good thing. Uh, or if I was to give my mom some constructive criticism, I would say that it wasn't really a sex talk in that there was no how to. It was more just kind of a morality thing. And I think about, like, waiting till marriage. Um, so, yeah, I don't know. I think overall I would rate my mom like a six out of ten. Uh. Thanks, mom. Uh, which I think is great coming from, like, a very conservative Christian background. A six out of ten rated on a curve is a is an 11. How about you, Kelly? I was thinking I think that yes. Only really related to morality. Like wait until marriage and wait. But the one thing that we did have where I got some information to give you an idea of how little I had, was that when I first got my period, I couldn't figure out the tampon because I kept on putting it in my pee hole. And so I was like, it's still making a mess on here. It's still making a mess. But the piece coming out on it. And so I tried to explain the issue I was having to my mom. Am I doing it wrong? Do I need to put it farther up the hole? Kelly, you gave yourself a reverse kidney stone. And my mom looked at me and she's like, I hope that this helps you. There are three holes. Okay, So. And how old were you at the time? Right. Like when you started? I don't know, 12, 13. Yeah. It feels like by then I should have known that there was a vagina hole. But we also just. There's no. You know, I was talking to your mom, and, like, the way that our house was, we always had to keep our bedroom doors open until it was bedtime. So there's no. I've heard from other friends of mine where they're like, oh, I was like six. And I was exploring around there. I'm like, oh, never. This is the way I was going to say, is that was this strictly a no masturbation thing, or was it was just how was it presented to you? As we got into high school, it seemed a little bit more like no masturbation. And then also, especially if we had, you know, friends or guys over all the doors are going to be open. But that made a little bit more sense. But it did make it that there just wasn't a lot of privacy I can I was actually thinking that the first time that I ever felt anything, um, sexual, it had to be before eighth grade. Because I remember thinking about it when I learned about Pavlov's dog. But I was way more. I was flying an international flight, and I was next to my dad. And I don't want to objectify Matt Damon, but I was watching The Bourne Identity. I think Matt Damon's used to being objectified by now. There was a scene, and I was like, I just felt some. Oh, good memory. I couldn't even tell you what mine was. Uh, yeah. Maybe. Maybe something around Harrison Ford in Star Wars. I definitely he was he was he was it for me or Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic? I don't know. I was also thinking about what our schools did. I went to Catholic school all throughout. And I have a distinct memory of, like a big assembly. We had a speaker hired to come and give this talk, and it was all about saving for marriage. And he directly addressed the woman in the school and he was like, if a guy is telling you that the way to show that he loves him is to suck on his this area, what does that tell you? And it was such a bad portrayal of like, sexual actions and all that. And then we all got like a Perla Promise card afterwards. It was like a credit card that we kept there and it was to give to our husbands. You can literally cash in your virginity on the day of your marriage. That's sad. Um, and I feel like I want to give him some credit if we're kind of rating everybody's various sex talks here, I want to give him some credit for. There are some elements of like, I do want to teach my daughter that if a guy teaches you that the only way to earn his affection is to suck his dick, then I do want to teach that message, but in a very different context, because I feel like, again, this is all like putting it on, putting the putting the burden of purity on the women talking about purity at all. Um, yeah. And I'm just going to guess that this guy was like an older man who gave off creepy vibes that made nobody want to listen to him and is kind of like Reefer Madness, basically having the side effect of, like, all the kids being like, yeah, I should try weed. That sounds cool. It was like Wolf of Wall Street, but for virginity. But who cares about your assembly made me think of my, uh, sex talk that I had in a church context. So I didn't go to Catholic school. I was in a conservative sect of the Lutheran church growing up. And so this was the age that you had to be in confirmation class. So this would have been middle school, sixth or seventh grade. And we were told that there would be a Christian sex ed component to this, because what we receive in the schools is insufficient, and I was living in Indiana at the time, so what we were receiving in school was absolutely insufficient because, yeah, like you, I'm not sure that I really knew that there was a third hole at this stage either. Um, so yeah, very, very bare bones education. So, uh, it sounds similar to your assembly. This was an older man that pastor, uh, we'll call him pastor M gives you. He he hypes this all up. And I think you're at an age where you're like, I have questions. I'm curious. It was the most disappointing nonsexual sex talk. I mean, I guess not disappointing because I'm not sure that I needed a 70 year old man to be telling me about the birds and the bees. Um, but it was just like these really long, drawn out stories of, like, his courtship of Mrs. Pastor M, um, which were kind of cute, uh, old fashioned. And then I remember there was a diagram of he always drew all these diagrams for everything that he talked about in the Bible. That was like a sweater on a hill. Um, and it was basically he was just explaining the slippery slope thing, slippery slope fallacy to us. But he spent an extended amount of time like that was my main takeaway from Christian sex ed was the sled on the hill. And basically like if you start touching somebody, then you have no idea. I think basically that it will lead to you will get pregnant or you will get chlamydia, um, which they didn't even talk about. To be honest, it wasn't even like they talked about the negative side effects of sex before marriage. It was like you just did. Nothing really came this the sled. There was a lot of euphemisms. There's a sled going down a hill and talk about the progression of walking together and then talking together. But you didn't really get we didn't get to first base Christian sex, then didn't get to first base. So yeah, walking and then talking. Yeah. It's just like going steady. I mean, it was a lot of very like 1950s, uh, terminology. So yeah, I think once you got past going steady, there is just sort of a big gray area cloud with sleds whooshing down the hill into sin and hell, uh, with little description. Um, yeah. And then, um, marriage, at which point, you know, suddenly you're going from this purity mentality, um, where, you know, your body is untouchable, uh, to suddenly you're supposed to be in this marriage and be fruitful and multiply. I guess, you know, in a lot of, a lot of Christian contexts, the sex is really around procreation. Um, so then we don't really talk about female pleasure at all, or why our bodies were created with the ability to experience pleasure that has nothing to do with procreation. And so I guess that's kind of an interesting transition. Also, that we're supposed to hit is to go from just yeah, not not thinking about yourself, not touching yourself, not knowing that there's a third hole to it's the well known thing about me that I'm very, very into romantic romanticize and smut. And there is a different kind of theme in fantasy worlds where a big part of like a rite is that all men need to learn how to like pleasure. The woman and women need to learn how to pleasure the men before they can even enter into a marriage. Like, they go to a teacher to make sure that they know how to. And it's interesting because it's obviously extremely ridiculous in the books and totally over done in a wonderful way that I enjoy. But, but but it's not like realistic, but it makes you wonder, okay, where this is a transition to do do do do. Where do we get our actual education from? Yes. Okay. I was talking about this with some friends the other night, and she was talking about, um, her experience that her mom actually did have the sex talk with her, uh, in a realistic way. Her mom's also not Christian. So there. Joe. The one thing that her mom didn't mention to her was about peeing after sex. And so she got a UTI. Like the first time that she had sex. Uh, I can't imagine my mom ever educating me in high school or college to pee after sex. That would mean that I was having sex. Yeah. Honestly, I don't know, like, a lot of things, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know that my mom knows about that or that, like, anybody ever talked to her about that or where she would have found this information out. Unless maybe your gynecologist tells you or something. I was thinking in my head because I was like, I've definitely kind of always known that you're supposed to do that. And then I realized, Cosmo. Cosmo is where I got all of my functional information about sex, which I did not have a subscription to Cosmo, obviously, but I had the cool friend who lived down the street in middle school, and her parents totally subscribed her to Cosmo. Um, it was kind of a mixed bag. I definitely remember learning from there about basic things like peeing after sex. Uh, I also remember something about putting in an ice cube in your mouth before you give a guy a blowjob for, like, a zesty different sensation. And I did. I've never actually tried this, but I did inquire once and the feedback was, that does not sound like something that a man would like, but I don't know, maybe different men. I think also sometimes Cosmo was just filling pages. So Nick bag not the best teacher, but reliable. One of my friends who is otherwise, you know, extremely private, extremely prude, was like in college. I got this idea to go down on my boyfriend with Pop Rocks. Oh. Which I'm like, so messy. I just think of, like, the sugar there and, like, ants. And I don't like the idea. I legitimately want to pull some men about how they would feel about a blowjob with pop rock. It doesn't sound. I was curious about this. I looked into Reddit a little bit. There is a really funny book. Sorry. I mean, it's not meant to be funny. There's a book written by a man for other men and is titled She Comes First. It's I ready, Ian Kerner. It seems to have aspects of it that are good. So, for example, he he says that for women, foreplay is core play, and it's extremely essential. And to always make sure the man runs before even penetration. But this is not the part that got me. The part that got me is that he recommends beignet wine while he's while you're going down on a girl to sit between breaks because it tastes a midnight wine. It goes well with vagina. Which is imagining, if you're like in the early stages with a guy and he's like, let me pour my glass of vinegar first. Now, did he go to an actual sommelier for this feedback or. This is just from his personal research. Oh, it's a man. It's all from his personal research. The only expertise you need is your own. But you know, I want to. I want to give him all the credit for his general thesis statement, which is great, general thesis strong the idea that all women are going to be one way and that he has mastered it for all. So here is exactly how you will do it. And yeah, that's called like manosphere pro podcasting to me a little bit. And on one hand I'm like, if there are helpful things that the general male public, the general hetero male public can glean from these kinds of things, then by all means, as long as it's not too polluted with other kinds of, you know, power dynamic things of just kind of establishing your, your supremacy, then then great. Uh, and if there's some weird things in there, I mean, I guess it's just that's this is male Cosmo, right? Yeah. You're gonna have some. You're gonna have some, uh, ice cube blowjobs thrown in which to me, sounds a little bit like the the wine pairing, but I'm never having tried this. Now I'm more curious than anything. Just pour a glass for your husband the next time he's getting ready. And then there's. Come as You Are by Emily Nagoski. I'm sorry if I mispronounced that. Oh, you've read it. Aha. Okay. I'm not interested in the idea of the accelerators and the brakes. I want your opinions on it. Yeah, it's been a little while since I read it, but I think it was kind of. It was recommended to me as a very good, uh, entry point for, like, a sex kind of conversation, especially for women coming out of this Christianity purity kind of conversation. But I was interested about is do you think it's something that's more catered towards married women and women in a long term relationship, or do you think it's something that could be given to an 18 or 19 year old woman who hasn't? Yeah, my recollection is that it kind of covers everything and that she's very, I mean, sex positive in the way that she's the sex educator. You know, it's just about female pleasure. And so I don't think that it's especially in the context of like relationships or anything like that. Um, so yeah, I think that my sister told me in college, my sister is, uh, like 4 or 5 years older than me, and she was always a little bit more experienced than me, but she was the one who told me like that. The clitoris is actually where it's at, not the middle. Cosmo. For me, a cosmo is the only reason that I know about the clitoris is existence. Because, yeah, I don't think that my older sister was any better off than I was. And I did not have the, uh, the. Yeah, the older sibling who was like the more sexually experienced or adventurous one. So it was all Cosmo for me. I was thinking about how like high school gossip kind of informed things for me because I didn't have a steady boyfriend during high school or anything. So I was more learning from like what others were saying and what was making it through the grapevine, but because everybody was coming from a little bit like the same lens of, you know, raised in a very Catholic household, it was all the same way that you would expect. Whereas like, this girl is a whore, she went down on this guy, she let him do her from the back, all that. And like the guy was always like the man and really, really awesome. It was never, you know, not unsurprisingly, the gossip was never like they had a really wonderful conversation about what both were comfortable with and then comfortably went into these things. Only although I have faith, I have faith for the young people today. I just feel like there's so many more conversations. Maybe because as as we age, we're all getting kind of better at having real conversations with our kids. But I feel like the kids are all right. Like there's a lot more of these conversations happening today. Although we should really, you know, like bring an actual high school teacher on to just discuss this because maybe I'm way off, but I feel like at least in some pockets, and maybe it's also because we're living in a much more kind of progressive area than I think either of us grew up in. But yeah, I think similarly, I had the experience of going to three different high schools in three different states. So I feel like that was a good cultural cross context kind of situation. Um, and definitely living in the Bible Belt in North Texas was the most, yeah, like slut shaming kind of culture and also the least of anybody talking about it. Again, it was more like the Christian sex ed where it was implied, but nobody in my friend group anyway would have talked about a guy going down on a girl, or a girl going down on a guy or whatever. It was just more sort of implied, or it was about the way that people dressed, implied what kinds of things that they were doing, but those things were not named or spoken. So, you know, I remember that this girl who was 2 or 3 years older than me, was had the nickname like the bloody jungle because her boyfriend went down on her when it was her period and year of high school that just like further associated in your mind, no guy actually wants to do that. It must be gross, and it takes a very long time to get that out of your mind. Yeah, I definitely had a lot heard a lot of that type of stuff in college more, which is where I think I was in a situation where people were having conversations about more explicit conversations about what was happening other than. So he was on the crew team in high school and college, but in high school, I think that was also part of my sex ed, because you would go on a bus to races that were sometimes an overnight trip away, but you would have these three hour bus rides. And so a lot of conversations on the bus, mixed boys and girls, um, and my first pornography viewing experience was one of the boys team members brought porn because we were staying overnight at a hotel, and this was like VCR days, and I don't know where he brought up for, you know, two group gathering, which at the time, I mean, I was just kind of like, okay, like I'm interested because I don't have context for this. So I watched a little bit of it, and I guess that's kind of a safe space in that you're in a large group. And so everyone was just watching more from a curiosity perspective, because these were like 16 year olds. Um, but yeah, I now looking back on it, I'm like, who was this young man that thought, I have an overnight gathering with some of my closest male friends. I'm going to bring my pornography video. When I think about it, we all went downstate to like, watch the baseball. The basketball team that was playing in the championship in high school. And there was definitely some room that rented a porn movie. And it was like you said, like everybody was watching for entertainment. Yeah. Which looking back, it wasn't going to watch a porn video with a 20 group of 20 coed people. Unless you're somewhere really freaky. I think this is the perfect time to talk about learning from porn and porn. Giving unrealistic expectations. I looked into this. Okay, so this is 1100 people aged 11 to 17, and about one fifth said that they had been asked to or or had done things that they saw in porn. Uh, 30% said that real sex hadn't lived up to their expectations after watching porn. And the other and another 37%, which would make it like two thirds were on the fence about whether porn made it. But there was actually some really helpful kind of beautiful things that I saw on it, which were that a guy was like, well, porn made me think that a woman would just instantly like this, this, this. And so this was what I would do to pleasure the woman. And then when I actually learned when I started entering into the sexual world, is that it's a back and forth conversation between me and the woman, and that just because one person likes this doesn't mean that the other will like this. And that was really, you know, has been raised well that the porn can be the starting point. You get some ideas from it. Um, but yeah, I've, I've definitely heard the thing that I've heard more is the piece about it setting unrealistic expectations, especially around the, the violence in terms of the power dynamics in porn, and most of it being produced by men and how women are portrayed. Um, and how even female pleasure is portrayed that it seems like it's still very male centric, because it's about kind of like what you were saying. It's about the male's power to get this woman off really fast or really hard or something like that. Yeah, it's not like I'm going to take another 30 minutes to sensually make this happen for you, and everybody's going to want to watch while that happens. 30 minutes. Ah, I feel like that could be some really good porn. I went on, I went on a kick for a while trying to find female created porn. Um, I still didn't really find anything that was like my personal jam, but it was just interesting kind of how even like the lighting was better the times, which is just very distracting for me. And this is how you can tell that it's made cheaply, but also that it's made by a man. Um, is the terrible lighting like who is sitting there in like, full, blazing fluorescent light. Daylight to get some mood lighting. Interesting thing to me, and I know that pawn takes the violence way higher level. But as someone who reads, you know, again, love smut. A lot of romantic, written by women for women and sees what women like. There is some part of women that is very into some aspects of like the male running a show. Why was 50 Shades of Grey as popular as it was when the girls tied up a lot? And there are people like, you know, they like to be called like good girls during sex and they like to, you know, do exactly as the guy says. And that's like a heavy thing throughout books written by women for women. So it makes me interested when I read some studies that are like, porn equaled this higher amount of violent behaviors, and they classified violent behaviors as things that I see in smut and romantic as well, meaning that women would theoretically enjoy it. Yes, like out there is just such a complicated line there. And I feel like that's why when you talk about younger people having sex, that's such a learning area, I think is around boundaries and consent and figuring out when somebody is enjoying things and what they want out of it, which is also where I think I do come down on the side. If I were talking to my kids at an older age about sex, that I would be encouraging to explore sex within some kind of safe relationship and not kind of start out with, well, I'm not necessarily opposed to like if random stranger sex is what you want. That sounds like an unsafe place to explore those kinds of questions of boundaries. And so I think, like the conversation that I would have would be more around that safety and the boundaries and exploring what consent looks like. Not so much on the purity side, but there is something to be said for kind of, especially when you're learning to be learning within, like a safe learning space where you kind of know and can have those conversations, which maybe look awkward at first too, because I see, like I've read things about how, you know, people complain about this consent culture that goes too far because, yeah, women complaining about being with a man who is stopping every three seconds and is like, is this acceptable? May I continue? Do you enjoy this? And it's like, shut the fuck up, you know? I totally get that. So again, I think when you have that space of having somebody that, you know a little bit better, that maybe some of that can happen as an unspoken consent and you know that. And then there's like no drugs or alcohol involved. That seems like a safer, safer space to explore where those boundaries lie. That's funny. You made me think that my college boyfriend was a person who I explored a lot of things with and had a very trusting relationship with, but something that I really liked to do with that boyfriend during college was that I loved to role play every time. Different situations. And one time when I was packing my suitcase to go back for college, I had like dug up and found some things from when I was younger and my mom was just being very nice. She was putting like clean clothes or something in my suitcase and she's like, why do you have this very, very little school skirt or yes, packed in here? And I was like, costume parties. There were so many parties at college, no further explanation needed. I was like, I was gonna wear them with leggings to something. She's like, mm. I look at it and it almost looks like a sex thing, but obviously not that it's you, Ellie. It never me. Even after having that, when I went back into dating in my 20s and it was with, like, you know, kind of one off guys, it was interesting because there was very clearly some guys who weren't knew how to take it slow, knew how to have those conversations. But the ones who didn't, I still found that I hadn't yet realized my full confidence and autonomy to be like, whoa, we're going to slow it down a little bit. It'd be better for both of us if we if we if we slow it. You are trying to do this. And I never okayed that, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, I think to learn so that even then when you get further along and you are having partners that may or may not know what those how to look for those boundaries, that it's also that kind of practice space to articulate that for yourself and to have that confidence to say, this is what I like. This is what I want you to stop. Yeah. I think if you got into basically what I would consider like a more advanced level, that that is a level where you have to go into it with a skill set to be able to say things because, yeah, if the partners are random, you have no idea what kind of skill set they're coming in with and their ability to read a room or in transition here to what movies like pop culture. So this is not things that are behind the scenes, you know, like porn and smut that people tend not to openly talk about what they learned about. But what are movies? TV shows that show unrealistic expectations of what it is like to have sex with a first time with a partner, and not necessarily losing your virginity? Um, all of them. So there was a study on sex in movies being unrealistic. It was done by an online doctor service, which is random, but I want to make sure that I cited that. I looked at iconic sex scenes from over 50 films like Dirty Dancing, 50 Shades of Grey, and then it also surveyed over 2000 women. So 39% of women have an orgasm on screen versus 24 during sex, versus 24% of women who report never reaching an orgasm during sex, that only 27% of movies show any foreplay before sex, they just go straight to penetration, whereas 70% Report foreplay before sex. And then there's just things like, you know, Titanic. It looked so hot when we're, you know, eight years old, and we're watching the sex scene with Leonardo DiCaprio in the back of a car. But you aren't you? Yes, yes, I have, and no, it just the mechanics don't. I mean, maybe if you're two very compact people or you have a very large vehicle, but, you know, you don't see Cate and Leo doing it in, like, a conversion van and the. That was not like a GMC suburban. It was like a leather. It's like an old timey model T kind of situation. I don't even know what the seating in there it was like, but I can't imagine that it's even reclining seats. Maybe she's just really flexible. Maybe he's really flexible. The steam on the windows did allow them to kind of give you the sense of it being very sexy, without having to actually show it. But do you think about being in a small, enclosed space that is so hot that there's steam on the windows. I'm here. The other seat. And I don't know. I guess you just have to, like, lean into it. This is great. Yeah, but but not but not educational because you can't see anything. Yeah, but can you picture the scene at the beginning of bridesmaids with Kristen Wiig and Jon Hamm? That's like almost a more realistic look of, like what the first time is like. Uh, no, actually not there. Yeah, again, you're going too fast. The idea that, like, two people would meet each other and this is another kind of unrealistic expectations kind of thing. And it's not just the porn with the unrealistic expectations about, like, a guy getting to, like, come six times all over a woman's face or whatever. I think it's also the like, movie romantic kind of things of just this like sense of, yeah, women climaxing without any foreplay. Women reaching orgasm from sex from, you know, like vaginal penetration alone. And I think also, yeah, that idea that if two people are meant for each other, if they have chemistry, that it would just be like very effortless and they would immediately sense each other's like, yeah, where you want to push that accelerator, where to hit the brakes, that you would sense that without any kind of conversation or any kind of trial and error? Absolutely. Because the reality is that it is very awkward with a lot of little trial and error, especially for the first few times, unless you're, um, you know, having sex with that, you know, a romance master, which has happened to me like twice in my life. And I have a lot of experience, so that's not their numbers. So for these, you were, um, first time, you know, just like first shot, kill shot, kind of masters. What were these two individuals, like outside of the bedroom? The best. Yeah. Oh. That's amazing. I was expecting you to say, like. Yeah, you know, freak in the sheets, but just dead in the red and. Oh, yeah. No, I mean very, very, very odd and quirky. Yeah, I guess I could put that out. Very, very odd and quirky, which I think allowed him to be so comfortable in his skin that he was like, you need to slow down a little bit. All right. Yeah, maybe just speaking up for that. Like, it's not necessarily being the, like, sexy, confident Casanova, but it's being more like, curious or perceptive. Yeah, not particularly big. Didn't look extremely like, you know, big guy on campus or anything like that, but just knew what he was doing. I really like those. They are rarely the sex gods, because it's kind of like the stereotype that, like, hot people can't be funny. Like, I do think that you go through life if you're just ultra hot, you kind of go through life not having to try as hard to make people like you. And so, you know, I think that pretty privilege can kind of translate. I don't know. I mean, there must be people who are like, gorgeous, Is confident people who are also just really awesome at sex. But yeah, most. I'd be curious to know, you know, if we took a lot of data points from the population, what the correlation there would be. So one time I had this thing happen that could have been, you know, written into like a rom com or like a book and how, like, amazing it would have been on paper, which is that, you know, I went to Georgetown. The lacrosse team was a very, very big deal there. And they all ate breakfast by me. There was this one player who I thought was extremely attractive, and we were always at breakfast at the same time. And then like eight years later, we met again and he, like, took me out on dates, was interested in me, pursuing me. And, um, it wasn't there, you know? Yeah, yeah. Now I realize this is the sample size that I need to, like, fully prove my thesis, but this does play into this that I think it's just huge in shape guy. Everything. And I was like, well, now I have experienced it and now I will not think that I was missing out on anything that I could have just aimed for that. And now we are going to transition to a question from the audience. What do you think about cumshots in porn? What are you specifically talking about? You, the face? Or. I'm not sure about the technical definition of here. Is it just where you're aiming at? Like you pull out and aim it? Or is this specific to facial? So Shane Gillis, the comedian, had a funny thing about To the Face where he said that he had, you know, okayed it with his girlfriend beforehand that she had agreed to this. He's like and then the second it was happening, I felt so bad I got on her. I everything but a funny thing about my with my married partner is that he feels so seriously about it that he will not even finish in my mouth like nothing because he and I have told him before it is okay. Everything. And I didn't realize all this time that he would actually like. Hold out until we moved to the next thing because he didn't have one to do. It in my mouth. Okay, but how do you feel about a guy finishing in your mouth? Do you feel neutral about it? I would put myself. If you enjoy it, I would put myself as neutral. I definitely don't mind it, but I definitely also don't mind that it's not there. I think it's just a funny thing that it took me so long to realize that he was purposely avoiding. It takes time, but there's also just like funny things like Ali Hazelwood is a really, really popular romantic book writer, and in one of her books, the guy you know thought that she was thought that the girl he was interested in was with his the brother actually was not with the brother, as when they finally did have sex, he had a thing where he really wanted to come on her stomach, almost as a way to show like you're now mine. Yeah. See that? That is a very. Yeah. Like marking your territory kind of act. Um, and I guess that's a good question. As the smut reader of the two of us. I think that that's a good gauge of how much women are like, yes, I love this. Do you see a lot of a guy? And let's start with cumming in a woman's mouth, because, like, I think that most of us feel neutral about that. But I don't know a lot of people who are like, yum. I think that there's I think that I've seen it almost like a 5050 both ways, where sometimes it's like it's not even touched on, but sometimes it's like. And then he finished in my mouth and like I swallowed with satisfaction to show him how much I liked it. But it's almost it kind of goes into that, like, good girl idea of like, I love the idea that this is like my big, huge partner and it's a big thing of like romantic books. The guys are always like, my two hands could hardly fit his girth. And what is your vagina look like? What? Why would you want that? Yeah, I agree, it is just kind of. It does like, play into that. Kind of like big, strong man and like, delicate woman. But then she can, like, take it all. Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I agree, I feel neutral about the, the mouth thing, but, you know, I could take it or leave it. Um, I don't know that a lot of people are, like, truly enjoying the taste, and I, I guess, you know, I've got questions if that's if that's truly. But, you know, different tastes. Maybe you just don't have the right wine pairing with it yet. So. Uh, to be explored on a future episode, but definitely the the face thing. I don't know how much that was really happening before the rise of internet pornography, because that does seem like something. Um. And the one time that I did try it, it was definitely a situation where the gentleman in question was like, I've seen this thing. Like it just looks like fun. And I was kind of like, what about it looks fun? Because to me, it is just kind of this marking your territory. Um, but I'm like, yeah, I mean, like, try anything once for the most part, if it's not going to end in you getting hurt. Uh, it did end in me getting hurt because it did get in my eyes. I don't think that either of us knew how much cum burns in your eyes. So, like, a little bit got in the eyes. Terrible situation. Zero out of ten would not do again. And they never showed that in porn. How it burns the eyes and they don't. And I just wonder, are these women wearing special contact lenses? Was it just me? But then, um, I don't know if you've watched The League, Kelly I feel like it's kind of a dude show, but I did enjoy the league. The one where he blinds her with his cum, um, like and kind of like a humorous context, but basically like some gets in her eyes. Uh, I think they're, like, about to get married, too. And, uh, I guess, like, she allows this as, like a special treat for him and then ends up going blind because she's allergic to it. So I felt a little bit, uh, validated by that, So, uh, you know, I wasn't blinded by it, but very painful experience. And I was like, why is any woman enjoying this? But I don't know, maybe there. But you were so hot and turned on afterwards because you're like, even as I'm blinded, he just really, you know, and I just want to be owned. I love this. That's such a good girl. I'm so tired of it. No, I hated it. Yeah. Afterwards, he lightly tapped her cheek and said, good girl. And you're like, ooh, that's it. A little shiver ran through my body. I felt I felt that clearly, exactly how the scenes are written, just in case. It's always like he said, good girl. And a shiver ran through my body. Yeah, I feel like I could really do well writing smut. Actually, you probably could. Yeah. You already. You got the shiver and you didn't have to read. My sisters and I used to humorously read romance novels. They had a little caddy of them in the front of the library, and they were like those kind of grocery store paperback romance novels, and I think that they were for sale. Actually, I don't know if it was a situation that the library didn't want to, like, have them back after you had had your filthy hands on them and done what you did. But they were always up at the front, and I do remember giggling over them with my sisters. And to be honest, probably some of my mindset and language came from them. They were not very feminist romance novels because they were like 90s romance novels, but they were entertaining. That's funny. My first romance novel, and I didn't realize how common they were, and that I could go on to read other ones. So I read this one, like maybe sophomore year of high school called Simply Irresistible. I like I remember the name I'm really proud of you because I that was it. That was like my only exposure. It was like I snuck it underneath my my house's lens, where I just looked like I was reading a normal love book, and it said it had also solid scenes. I stayed with me, and then somewhere along the way, I lost it. And I actually reread it the other month because I was like, revisiting old times and it's horrible. Okay, sure. Yeah. As for me, I was almost aware at the time and we were kind of reading this and this kind of like, oh, this is funny, but I'm sure it was also sort of like curious on some level. And now that you say that, I do remember that my sisters and I got Ahold of one that was definitely about sexy pirates. And I don't know if it was like at a beach house or we like, got it for I don't know where it came from, but we definitely like passed it around and we would read it under the auspices of like, this is so ridiculous. It's funny. Like her, her Bountiful breasts are spilling out of her bodice on every page. But at the same time, I think again in in the line of the Cosmo and the other things, it was a it was a source of education. And as a woman, you know, I think if my parents had found any kind of pornographic materials that would have been game over. We would have been grounded for life. But I think that my mom knew that we had this book and was just kind of like thought that was funny. And and I think that she read some pretty spicy romance stuff herself. My mom's right now reading Fourth Wing, which definitely has some hot scenes to it and she likes it. She's like, I think I really like this Satan. And I was like, everybody loves Satan. Something my mom would read, something that's so like explicitly smut. I think, again, it has to be within the safe of like, this is a historical romance book that is about the romance, but like, does it have some very hot sex scenes in it? Yeah, I think I found some stuff on my mom's bookshelf, but I was like, all right, mom, I mean, it has to come across as a very historical book, but there is there is a lot of bosom spilling out of bodices on on the pages of these books. That's my dad and I used to. I always make sure that we read the same book. So we had something to talk about. And he really likes historical fiction, and they always had some pretty nice scenes. But one was like back to like the time of like cavemen, like humans, like Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens were like, just kind of coming to existence. And Neanderthals were still around. And there was this scenes and it was called the The Cave bear. Oh my gosh, my grandma had these slopes. They had you like her romance. She had some. She had some ice. Well, this was not my biological grandmother. So again this her her viewpoints did not, like, trickle their way into my upbringing at all because she married my grandpa when I was a baby. I remember looking at those very curiously. Yeah, they called it the vagina cleft. And so it was like Chandler. Chandler was a guy, and he was like. He like, definitely licked her cleft. Oh, yeah. We I need a whole separate episode on euphemisms for the human anatomy that are used, especially in older romance novels where, you know, you can't just, like, use the words that people would actually say. Core is now common in, like, books that aren't full on smut. But then I think of core. I think of abs. Yeah. Or lack of abs? Well, now core strengthening can really just be more, more expansive for us. And you think about core strengthening and you're at the gym. Just do a little Kegels to just add one of those Kegels. Kegels, I think. Okay, maybe Kegels. I heard people say both you've done, like, the pelvic floor therapy. Yeah. What do they call it? I don't remember now. I feel like both are acceptable. I've heard both from trustworthy people. So. And now for our last question of the episode. We both have kids. What is our role as moms in preparing our kids to be solid sexual partners? I recognize that I actually have a bigger role with my son, because I think that there's more negative influences out there about how to be a man, and I think that there's more work to be done in raising feminist sons as a society, because we've talked to our daughters about you're empowered, you're great. Like, you can have it all. You can have a job and have all this. And where we're struggling to have the conversations is like, in order for women to have it, all, men have to take some on to of the you know, it's not just like, oh, you can have a job while you do 80% of the housework. It's like, no, the men have to kind of do this. So I think in the sex side of things, that's a very similar kind of thing of there's more work for the men to learn how to operate within this context of consent. I'm currently reading a book will return with a full review of it, but the birds, the bees, and the elephant in the room is the one that I'm reading, which is kind of like how to have conversations at every different age and what some of the underlying philosophies are, and then also kind of how to deal with specific conversations and thinking in advance, too, about how to have those things. My current strategy, and I think this kind of revives with the book, has been, um, answer the question that you are asked, not any additional questions. Um, and talk about consent early with both kids. There is a study by Lindbergh and Cantor in the Journal of Adolescent Health, and it was on like, what's the state of education that adolescents are receiving about sex and about two thirds of adolescents in America. Their education was to wait for marriage. And so this is just I'm glad to be part of the majority. So this is and this is like when they talk about sex education here, they're talking about kind of the basics of like just making sure that, you know, no STDs and birth control because I wonder what's the best way to give your kids the education that it's not like, oh my gosh, Ma, never mention a clitoris to me, please. But you do make sure that your kids are aware. In my dream world, there's some book written that is truly for high school age that speaks to these things. And in that area, like, somehow is socially acceptable and you'll. Yeah, there was a mention when I was chatting with some of my friends the other night about the, um, American Girl one. Did you have this when you were a kid? I gotta go back and find the name of it. I feel like there have been some good books, and I will give you a review of this one. So I do want to ask, though, Kelly on the conversation of abstinence only sex education. Were you ever prescribed aspirin as as the thing that keeps you from getting pregnant? What is the word for that? No way. Yeah, it's not real. No, this is a very real thing. And I think it is an evangelical America thing. I do, yes, because this is then it's this was, I think, probably the extent of sex ed talk that I got from my dad, which is take one aspirin, put it between your knees and hold it there. Uh, uh, this I then followed by. Yeah, followed by creepy laughter. Um, but I feel like I've heard some conservative politicians actually mentioned this idea before, too. And again, this really gets the idea of like, don't have any awareness of what is happening down there, which really just seems like leads to, um, teen pregnancy and, uh, a lot of STIs. Yeah, I think that I got on Birth control. Like maybe, maybe age 20 or something. And it was because and I felt very, very much so like I was going behind people's backs and I, you know, verified that it would not be reported back to my mom and dad, even though it was their health insurance that I was on it. And it was funny because my roommate after college, he's like, oh, as soon as I turned like 13 or 14, my mom was like, oh, we're going to get a Marina in you because things happen and we're just going to be safe here. And it just wasn't even a conversation. Or I was, what's that vaccine that you can get if you've vaccine? Yeah. The HPV vaccine. Just to give you an idea when I. Yeah. Gardasil when I got that and then I went to my friend's house afterwards and I told her like, oh, I just got the Gardasil vaccine. And she turned back to her mom and she was like, hey, mom, do I need the Gardasil vaccine? And her mom said, oh, only floozies get this. I was going to say slut floozies even more. You know how to know. Your mom is old timey interviews about sex. A nicer word for slut? Yeah, exactly. So you can say it in good company. Um, yeah. I actually think I didn't get the HPV shot until I was an adult, and my gynecologist was like, how do you not have this deadly disease? Yeah. And he. And she told me that, too. No, I'm just kidding. A great gynecologist. Uh, but, yeah, the birth control thing. I definitely know for my little sister and me that we both approached getting birth control under the pretext of, like, for my sister. It might have been around that she was like, oh, it's for acne or something. And for me, it was around having really terrible cramps, which I did. Um, but yeah, absolutely. There was no way I was having that conversation. Um, which makes me sad that there aren't better ways to, uh, allow teenagers access to birth control once they're 13. In most states, there are health records are private, and it's fully covered by so many health insurance companies that they can get it without, even though they're on their parents health insurance, without their parents having to be aware that they received it. And so obviously, the goal is that the parents are fully on board with it. But the next best plan is for the child to get birth control regardless. And that's interesting because I definitely didn't know that. Um, and I think so, part of it is also getting the word out, um, in a way that isn't going to cause screeching alarm from these more abstinence only kinds of parents. But you get the word out to kids because, yeah, I definitely think that there are a lot of kids out there that don't know that that's the case, and they think that they have to get their parents consent, or I don't think that I really knew how to go to the doctor without my mom scheduling it and bringing me, or that I had access to my insurance information. Um, and I think if I had, if I had some guidance from another adult, uh, that that would have been something that I could have figured out. So it makes me recognize the importance of sometimes being that adult for other people. So thinking about how you're going to have those conversations with your own kids, but also when you're going to act as that trusted other adult, because I think you can have the best relationship with your parents. And there is just this evolutionary thing of when you start to hit teenage years, your parents are the last people that you want to talk to about anything related to sex, even if you've had presumably really great conversations with them. Um, and that's a good role, too, for people who don't have kids but still find so much value in being that kind of role model, important figure that kids at that age is more important than ever to have that person who can be somebody that you approach for all of those kinds of questions that you wouldn't approach even a very open minded parent in this, um, the birds, the bees and the elephant in the room. One of the things that she introduces pretty early on for older kids is the like consent to knowledge, and it is kind of getting that sense the same way that you get consent about other things and when you can continue and why. Sometimes it is important to just answer the question that you were asked and not be like, oh, this is a whole interesting entree into the world of female pleasure. Uh, is that I think that then you don't get to that creepy point if you are just kind of reading the room of what was the actual question that was asked, and what information are they looking for, and not going beyond that until they give you their consent by asking follow up questions? So I liked that as a framework. It also just makes it feel less daunting, uh, when you just have to respond to the situation in front of you in that particular moment. So, Kelly, to wrap things up, uh, I would love to hear what is your what is your relevant smut scene of the week. So Penny read and LH Causeway. Causeway. They have a series of books on, uh, Irish rugby players. And there's one in particular. It's called The Player in the pixie. And the premise of the book is that the player is a hot, famous rugby player, but he really sucks at hooking up. He does not know what he's doing at all. This really goes into our earlier theory about they're not taught or head with both hands. I'm just saying. So he can't get a girl to orgasm. No girl calls him back afterwards because of it. So Lucy, another rugby player sister, makes a deal with him that she'll teach him how to be a good hookup. And so I'm going to read a scene from it to end, just to give you an idea of how smut can be educational. So scene is that she has them kneeling in front of the bed. She did provide a pillow, but she explained to him that kneeling is kneeling on the bed. Gives him the best vantage point for going down. Um, so. And to set it up, it's from Shaun, the guy's perspective. So Lucy asks, what is the very next thing you want to do? What do you want to move and where? I licked my lips. My first instinct is to spread your legs and dive in. She nodded thoughtfully. How about instead you slide your fingertips lightly up my thighs or trace circles behind my knees? Uh, why would I do that? Because it feels good, and it builds tension. It prolongs the act. Prolongs the act. I repeat, turning this concept around in my mind and considering it from all angles. Yes, for a woman, if you want her to come before you do, you need to find that delicate balance between prolonging the act and providing fulfillment. You can't provide fulfillment if you haven't built the tension. It would be like trying to force feed me before I'm hungry. Hmm. You want me to make you hungry? Exactly. And, well, you can go on and read because it goes on with some great tips that she gives a while to him that I'm like, ooh, if I had this book where I was flying. And I also had confidence and a lot I like it from that perspective. Again, when you're like more old fashioned kind of romance things, the woman can never be the teacher, you know? They're just sort of always the student. They're always the recipient. So I like that here. And I wish that more men would read these kinds of books, because it's kind of like the men who say there are no women out there. Like, where do I meet single women? I keep going out. And then you're like, where are you going? Out there going to like fantasy Football League and whatever. And they're like, there are no single women. And it's like, dude, go to yoga class. There are so many single women, you know, not to say that you should join yoga class to be creepy and stare at women's asses, but meaningfully engage in the thing that women care about, that there are a lot of women present and you might learn something very, very often. It is the man who has like, more experience than they're coming in, and with their huge body parts and everything like that. But we all know that they had some teacher somewhere along the way, if that is. Yeah, some patient girlfriend. Who. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's a turn on for women, too, that there is vulnerability and that there is something to be learned from both sides about each other instead of I think that that's just such an outdated trope. This, you know, ultra experienced man and blushing, virginal woman is just not something that a lot of us identify with anymore. Um, and probably most of us, when we were that blushing, virginal woman, were with like a blushing, virginal, you know, 18 year old. Yeah. Who was very, very eager but didn't know what he was doing. Yeah. A very, very kind and sweet. And then we're coming to it with, uh, with, um, some balance power dynamics and that's again, that better space to kind of be exploring and, and figuring out things for yourself and for your other person. Wonderful. So I don't know. We'll figure out how to end them. Yeah. I feel like I need some music.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":2,"createdAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.564Z","updatedAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.564Z"},{"id":1,"title":"Good Girl Origins","slug":"good-girl-origins","description":"Welcome to the premiere of Good Girls, where hosts talk about why they launched this podcast and the good girl trope that's got everyone hot and bothered. Kay, a former Catholic kid who thought premarital sex was a one-way ticket to Satan's VIP list, dishes on her 20s epiphany: porn wasn't a sin, it was a candy store! Her stint commentating on adult videos with a friend proved women need a shame-free zone to navigate their kinks—without landing on a shamrock-shaped pubes disaster. Co-host SJ, raised in a church that thought \"feminist\" was a four-letter word, shares how she flipped the bird at churchy patriarchy and found her voice through theology (while dodging confirmation class timeouts). Together, they skewer the good girl myth—purity culture's lovechild that screws women over in boardrooms but is maybe wanted in the bedroom??? From the praise kink's smutty reign to workplace slaps for speaking up, the hosts serve laughs, spice, and zero judgment (okay, a little judgement, but mostly aimed at the pastor that taught SJ's middle school Christian Sex Ed and the Disney execs who couldn't just let Elsa be out of the closet).","spotifyEmbedId":"4iMB1cwvFmEgYQKKGGAcSG","releaseDate":"August 12, 2025","duration":"53 minutes","topics":["Personal stories","Breaking expectations","Self-discovery"],"transcript":"Recorded August 6, 2025: So on today's episode, we're going to dig into our origin stories and explore the good girl trope to better explain why we named our podcast after it. SJ, did you want to start or I want you to start because I feel like you were the true genesis of this podcast with your precursor to the podcast. Yes. So my origin story with this is that as someone who was raised in a Catholic household, wonderful, very, very sweet parents, but very, very, very much so through all Catholic education, all that never thought of sex as something to enjoy before marriage, to experiment different things, to see what you like, all that. And so the way that I was thinking about it is actually like if you were raised in an extremely healthy household where no candy was allowed, and then all of a sudden you have your own spending power and your own independence, and you're in a candy store and you want to try everything. Or like TV if you're in like a no TV household, and then all sudden you're at a house that has TV and you just want to sit in front of it. Like for me, I feel like that was me realizing I could turn on Pornhub in my twenties and like, all of a sudden, Satan wasn't going to come into my bedroom and be like, I must take you down into the fiery pits with me at this moment. And he might have made an appearance at some kind of sexy. Yeah. He all of a sudden came and started using a vibrator. I mean, two prongs, like devil horns. I don't even know what was happening. It's an extremely sexy Satan came and was like, I'm so happy that we finally brought you to the dark side. But it was kind of I love this romantic subgenre for you. So it was kind of like an amazing thing where one I realized the world wasn't burning, but two, I had to learn. Like, as you know, in my mid twenties, what do I like? What am I interested in? And turn on some videos and be like, what on earth? Like, who wants that? Why does a guy shave his hair in that way? And why does he have specific tattoos? Oh my gosh, when any, like, special thing is done with a guy's pubic hair like a woman or, I mean, I don't. It's great if you have it. It's just it was not doing it for me. You didn't want to land your plane on that strip. So I was talking to a girlfriend, and this is before I had kids about this. And she's like, oh, I watch porn all the time. I totally agree with your thoughts. And so we came up with the idea of doing like a science fiction movie three thousand, where we did theater three thousand, I misquoted, I think that's what it's called. Anyway, we know the one with the little like robot muppets that watch in front of the screen. And yes, so the idea was that we would do that and then watch for and to this day, I still think that's a great idea. I still I still think people would watch. I still think it's wonderful. And when we did it for a few, we had like pretty high viewership. And what was surprising to me is that like it was men. Men absolutely loved listening to our commentary. They were learning from it. They were doing everything. I would send it. I would send the website Sex Educator. It was basically like a cam girl, but I would send them. I was not on the other end, though. You were like the camera operator. I was a narrator, and we were just saying things like, if her mouth does that, it is because it has a portal to another dimension, like nobody's mouth can take you that deep. Oh my gosh. So we were having fun with it. But when I would send the website to my girlfriends, they were always a little surprised, like, whoa, Kelly, you got to give me some heads up before you send me a website that has actual porn videos on. It was not in a place where I was expecting that from you and opened it up. But this is interesting, and I can now see how, like the ones that you're suggesting are videos that I would like and like a lot more than things that I've seen from other places. So I always thought that idea of like how to how to make it. It doesn't have to be porn at all. There's tons of problematic things about porn videos, and if I let myself think too hard about it, I want to like ban entirely. But. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that. But I do wish that there was some way that, like women, especially younger twenties getting introduced in this world could find some comfortable landing zone so that instead of, yeah, a nicely shaved landing strip and like the shape of a shamrock, you know, just to like, okay, like learn about yourself instead of me clicking around on Pornhub, being like, what does this acronym mean? And then clicking and realizing what the acronym means? I mean, like, oh, whoa, like, not my style at all. Yeah. And I think that there are so many things that I hear. Women have really candid conversations, and there still seems to be limits around things related to sex, especially if you were raised in a more conservative Christian household. That that still feels like a taboo, even if you're very vulnerable and open. Talking to your friends about so many things that there are still limits. And that was one that we kind of wanted to play with in a, you know, kind of semi, you know, our faces aren't on camera kind of thing and be able to talk about it pretty candidly. Um, my origin story is less, uh, porn involved in it. Um, most are. Yeah. But and also, um, so a different I think I'm representing a different perspective on a conservative Christian upbringing, which is a more evangelical one. Um, I was brought up Lutheran, but the really conservative Lutherans that I think people don't know about as much, and because of where I lived in the country, where there was a lot of influence from evangelical Christians and the Bible Belt, that a lot of the church situations that I was in would sound very evangelical. I mean, there was a lot of like, the Bible is the literal word of God. Only men were pastors, things like that in my upbringing. So it's interesting talking to you about the similarities and differences between a very evangelical, conservative Christian upbringing and a very Catholic, conservative Christian upbringing. Um, but a lot of similarities. And I think mine was more, uh, a lot of rebellion in terms of more being an asshole and questioning things like, I think that I was just this, like early, angry feminist with no vocabulary and no way to channel where that other than I just sort of felt this low burning rage, but couldn't explain it. Um, and one of the earlier ones I remember was we had to make this artwork in confirmation class, and it was like this etched glass thing that would have your name on it. But the background behind it would be this etched glass, and you had this pre-cut stencil for you to do the etching around that said God's Son. And we had a lot of like the Bible. Translations were all very masculine. Yeah. And I was just like, well, you know, like, fuck this pastor M who we get into talking about later. Um, I'm like, I don't I'm not the Son of God. I'm God's daughter. And he was like, well, that's kind of like meant in this general non-gendered kind of way. Like, we're all God's sons. And I'm like, there is a non-gendered word for children. It's children. Um, so we got into a big fight over that. I had to sit out of confirmation class for a little bit after that, but I had a lot of early stories from about that age where I was just kind of like, who the fuck made that? The rules. Um, but I think the most curious thing about all of that is somehow that ended up being my origin story for going to seminary. Uh, but I think I've always kind of brought this feeling of I never have felt like an insider in the church. And I really liked learning about theology, um, in a way that I could put a language behind some of these feelings that I felt and explain why, when people would talk to me in high school about their concept of God as this, like very judgmental white man with a beard that had a lot of opinions about what length of skirts girls wore to school. Um, studying theology helped me deconstruct that and have good arguments back. Other than I hate that, and that sounds really dumb. So I think that's some of the perspective that I'm also bringing is like wanting to talk about, um, the influence of Christianity on us, but not necessarily like have a theology podcast in one respect, because I think I was probably one of the least attentive students in seminary. So I'm not equipped to do a theology podcast, but equipped enough to at least be able to sometimes kind of identify and shine a light on where there is problematic theology behind a lot of the things that were the foundational, uh, parts of our upbringing. I love how respectable and thoughtful yours was compared to mine was like, well, I always wanted to be a good Catholic girl. I just also had this other pull towards like I also liked going to parties. So I think that is an interesting contrast between us. Um, I went to a lot of parties and yeah, I was definitely never a Christian. Good girl. Um, I think I was called a bad influence on a number of occasions, but it was rarely in a sexual way. Like, I think sexually, I was a pretty, like, good girl. Not in, like, a, um, spank me daddy kind of way, but I had no problem. I guess I was just not very curious as a kid. I was just too nerdy. I was, like, very obsessed with Star Wars and a bunch of other stuff that was just too nerdy. So I guess I kind of want to go into Good Girl as a term, if that's all right with you. SJ. Astray. So something that I find really entertaining from my particular background, where I always wanted to be a good girl, you know, I never wanted a judgment under God, even though I got one or two. And I think that both were from misunderstandings. And I want to go back and argue my case to this day, that they were undeserved. I should have gotten a law degree so that you could go back and get those retracted. I wanted, you know, I wanted good grades. I wanted the teachers, teachers to like me and to think I was doing the right thing. All those things that part of me kind of loves. Now that I read smut and I read smut from a variety of different worlds. How often the word good girl is used during sex. And I looked into this and it's officially called a praise kink. Oh, okay. And I kind of liked it a lot because Agreeable Celery eight one one on Reddit described it amazingly as if I'm being dominated. The little straight-A student inside of me thrills at being told I'm the teacher's pet, and I'll do anything to keep that status. And another person commented that I used to be academically gifted, and all I have to show for it is a praise kink. This line up between, uh, just like seeking the validation and the compliments and the and the praise kink, but also what I like about it is that to actually ask for praise kink or to get it in bed, you have to be so sexually comfortable and so at ease with you and your partner and know what you want and all those different things that there's just something about that like dichotomy within one word. Yeah, it's like powerful because you have, you know, yourself well enough to ask for it and that you can want that, that that can be your kink and you can name it without it actually being something that's like owning you. And yet it comes from this place of like not wanting to, you know, where your Catholic skirt in the wrong way because you didn't want your teachers to call you out. And yet all of a sudden you're here and like, you know, your thirties or forties and you're like, so can you let me know I'm doing a good job? Yeah. Um, we're also complex and layered. It it totally makes sense to me. So to give you an example of, like, how widespread this is, Ali Hazelwood, New York Times best selling author. She does strong female characters in Stem in her book Deep End. This is an excerpt. After the first time that she goes down on him, the character Scarlett Lucas, he goes, you did so well, you deserved to come. The problem is, I'm not sure you want it enough yet. Yeah, I hope you guys like my intonation. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And then in the next scene, he says you're even wetter than in the lab. It's because I didn't let you come. Because I'm in charge. You want to be ordered around by someone you trust? Is that it? You want rules and to be told what's good for you. It's so patronizing. And I nod my, my, like my life depends on it. Half ashamed by the loud moan that slips out of my throat. And then next. And this is, um, this is also, uh, a good one. Elizabeth Stevens, uh, her books are quirky and wonderful. All superheroes need PR again, not like a BDSM book. Not some, like, you know, corner of literature, like a popular, easy fine book, he says gruffly. You're good with rules, aren't you, Nessa? I nod, feeling thirsty all of a sudden. Whose rules do you like obeying, Nessa? Use your words, your rules, I whisper. Lust tittering through me in a way that I should find scary. His voice, his commands ignite a side of me I always knew existed, but never explored the whole thing. Tell me I like obeying your rules like a good girl, he says. Like a good girl, I whisper like these are so common. They're in, like, all the books. Yeah, it sounds to me like approachable. Like like approachable BDSM. Like, it's like you want to be dominated, but, like, just a little bit. Or like, don't make it hurt and like, don't put a ball gag in or anything. Just. But you just want to be dominated a little. I was telling my partner this and he's like, wait, is this like a cheat code? He's like, so if we just use the word good girl and say it in a certain way, like all of a sudden girls want to go down on you and like, take you as deep as they can. And I was like, well, I don't like you calling it a cheat code for you. Like, like it's meant to be more like, oh, it's going to make you enjoy it more and turn on. Therefore, I will do it. If it calls it a cheat code, it's all out the window. Yeah. And it's not to say like this is maybe not everybody's cheat code, you know as well. So it could or at the at the right time. You know, I feel like sometimes people want to try on different different. Yeah. Kinds of kinks at the the praise kink might be just for certain situations. Yes. And it also takes a guy who knows how to do it, Do it right and use it in the right instances, which does not include my partner, because he'll just be more like, you're kind of stinky. Can you go take a shower? Like a good girl. Oh, damn it, I have to shower now. Like, not in that instance. Yes, more like in this instance. But, you know, I said that, you know, make it hot. Yeah. Maybe by twenty thirty, we'll get it down. Um, I'm excited for you to report back. When he finally does. He can spend the next year trying to perfect that as his cheat code and then report back. It's a rule that you're supposed to put on. It's almost like you're an actor during that time. But again, I just think that there's something hilarious about the fact that it stems from this place of like, how women's roles are in society are, and how we're kind of raised to find some satisfaction out of, you know, others validating what we do. And yet it's come over into the sex world because it's not something I think that most guys naturally think about. Yet it's in like all romance, it's so widespread in romance novels. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Where this becomes more problematic for me is when it starts to cross over from this, like kink that you're saying yes to, to just kind of dominating the, your role in life. And I think when it's, when it's a kink, that's something that you have identified that you've said yes to when it's just kind of influencing our everyday life, then we just have this kind of societal expectation of good girl, and maybe the sexual thing is even kind of turning it on its head a little bit by asking for it and kind of getting off on getting to rewrite the script for it. Um, because obviously all of those things that are happening in those examples that you shared, she's not being a good girl at all by the pure Christian standards that we were raised for. Um, so I think we'll talk a lot in this podcast about purity, culture, and the way that it is difficult to be raised with this idea that sex is off limits and sex makes you dirty for your whole life, and then somehow just totally flip the switch. Once you've entered a scenario which is usually heterosexual marriage, where it's acceptable that you can't really just flip that switch all of a sudden and unload all of your years of shame around sex. Um, but I think the good girl trope extends beyond your feelings about sex, and just into our expectations of how women and girls should behave. Yeah, there is this paper by Williams and Titans. Titans? I'm not sure how to pronounce the last name. I apologize, and it's titled The Subtle Suspension of Backlash, a meta analysis of penalties for women's implicit and explicit dominance behavior. So I looked at a bunch of different studies that were already out there and published and found that pretty much consistently, women who do rebellious things like assert their ideas, make direct requests, and advocate for themselves, are liked less and they're less likely to get hired. And this hasn't improved over time. And that's a little depressing. It is depressing. Is this just sort of like a general study, or did it also get into because I feel like there's probably additional intersectionality there around race? Um, furthermore, it did not, but I can guarantee you that that's there, because I know I've read some of the studies that were probably part of that meta analysis, and I know that that factors in even more.Yeah. And I feel like for me, I what's interesting is that I went into nursing because I couldn't even imagine trying to lead or manage or advocate for a team or all those things, because it felt very outside of the role that I was supposed to be in. I was supposed to be more taking care of patients very gently. And, you know, joke's on me because if anybody knows bedside nursing, you have to be like an extreme, tough badass to be able to get through your days. So I learned those skills. Thankfully, I was wrong about my my profession, but it just plays such a big role and there was one scale that I found and it was things like, are you okay? What are your thoughts on a man being this role and your different roles that are more gendered, like a grade school teacher or a nurse, and versus what are your thoughts on a woman being a construction manager and all that as a way to get feedback. And it's just still like all very much there. Yeah. And you know, we talked about the double standard in the beginning. Um, I think that that's an example of things where this this kind of stuff hurts men too, because I do know men in nursing and just some of the shit that they get, uh, you know, jokes about male nurse or why we even have, we say we have a nurse or a male nurse. Like, kind of the same way that you have, like a doctor or a female doctor. And it's like where we choose to and it just doesn't. Clarifying gender if you're actually in those roles, like they're so tough and you're doing so many different things that the fact that we have made it gender, just because it requires you to be soft and caring to your patient is, uh, yeah. It's actually and then we pay those physicians less, too, because anything that does fall within that, that jobs that good girls do are also the jobs that get paid the least. But if you do the job that men do, then you're going to get paid less, less in that job. And like that study finds, you know, you're going to have a harder time being promoted. And so you can it's kind of one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't. Uh, you can either act like a man, but then you're punished for acting like a man, or you can be a good girl, uh, and not get the opportunity for promotion or not succeed and have a lower salary. And then if you go into a profession that is a traditional good girl profession, you're very likely getting paid less for a variety of reasons. And then when you marry a person who makes more because they are put into a different thing than all of a sudden you're in this situation where you have financial inequality and you're trying to make your own decisions and make sure you can get your own time and do what you want. And that's in there. And so just thinking about the way that this is seen in media, what makes me laugh big time is that when frozen came out, there was actually like some pushback to it, obviously not a huge amount of pushback. It's like one of the most successful movies ever. It's two strong female characters, and they didn't really need the guy to save them. Oh yeah, they saved each other and their love saved each other versus needing a man to come in there. Yes, boy. And all I thought you were going to say because Queen Elsa is a lesbian. And I on one hand, I'm like, if that was the intent, then like, go Disney for finally starting to dabble in having some characters who might be LGBT do it. Yeah. But on the other hand, I'm also like, if we are just assuming this because it's like, oh, she doesn't have like a male romantic counterpart, then she must be a lesbian. She could just be single and happy, you know? Yeah. I mean, open to both, but yeah. Why are we assuming. Yeah. If you think about Snow White, you know, cleaning her little cave area for her dwarfs or like all the traditional Disney princesses, you know, Cinderella was cleaning the house and taking care of her stepsisters and all that and then got rescued by the prince. Then Elsa is out there as, like your, you know, strong female character and like, one of the few ones in Disney. Yeah, who didn't need a men's savior and yet immensely popular with little girls. So what does this tell you about? We do need more. Um, you know, we we like immensely popular. Yeah. Like, how many years ago did that movie come out? And yeah, our daughters are still obsessed with it. Um, it's almost like she made the rest of the princesses popular for this generation just by being a princess herself. But like, what they saw was the character taking control and making a castle. They did not see her leaning on some handsome prince who came in to save the day, which is just in everything. Uh, when we were at Disney, I took the, uh. What? Disney character? What Disney princess are you? Quiz. While we were bored waiting. Are you Elsa? No. I don't even know if that was an option. I don't think I'm Elsa. Which one? Brave. Oh, Merida. Yeah. No, I was Tiana, and I really liked that one because she's an entrepreneurial small business owner, as am I. And I feel like also is another one where she doesn't. I mean, she kind of, like, saves him more in that one. Um, but she's. Yeah, definitely not like a damsel in distress. One you're right. They're doing better. They're they're trying, they're trying. It's very slowly. So I feel like one of our big things is Obviously K is a love of all things romance, romantic and smut, which are greatly intersecting genres. So it's an obsession. It's a problem. Yeah, well, I mean, at least you're doing something with that productive, such as talking about it. And I feel like I have read very little in the genre, but you now know so much more because of me. Yeah. So that's like, educate me about this. So who are who are our good girls in the, um, in the romantic romance genres? Well, so Sarah J. Maas, most popular romantic writer I would say, though, Rebecca Yarros is catching up with fourth wing and in all of her books, it is like a strong female character who's leading the way and who is the one who solves the biggest problem and all that. And really, in the one book series where it started off that way, and then the husband started to take more and more control, and it became more like he was a very clear leader of the household. There is a heavy sense of betrayal among her readers, like how dare you? And we all know who I'm talking about, Sarah J. Maas readers, and there are many of us. Rhysand. Rhysand. You totally, totally ruined Feyre, who was a strong independent character. She hunted for her sisters. All that. And then this is I'm, you know, not to get. She had a problematic pregnancy, and he knew that the diagnosis was going to lead to, like, a deadly birth. And he didn't tell her birth to a dragon or anything. Was this a dragon? A winged child? Yeah. The child had wings. Okay. Having given birth to just a regular child, I do feel also concerned about her giving birth to this winged child. Oh my gosh, I was reading no other context. So she was supposed to be told. But he's like, I can't ruin how happy she is. I can't let let her know that, like, the baby's not actually going to fit through the canal. And then her sister had to, like, save her and bring her back from life. And there was supposed to be like, no frowns to Rhysand. She's like, oh, well, I understand he didn't want to ruin my happy mood and it Sarah J mos, I love you. I think that your mind is amazing. That was just such a character. Betrayal for me can't all be perfect. Yes, and I recently read one that someone goes on this front. I'm just going to share it real fast, I promise, because it's a weird one. I want the weird ones most of all. For some reason she it's like a beauty and the beast. It was a beauty and the beast like spin off idea, where the girl goes to the castle and the guy is a beast. But for some reason, even though he's in his beast form, she can only see him as like the human he is inside. And they keep on saying like, this is only a spell that's going to last for one day. So absolutely do not have sex with him in his beast form, do not have sex with him in his beast form. And then she goes and has sex with him in his beast form. So of course he's huge. All that, no condoms. And so then nine months later, she's like, oh, and I have like my little baby with his little horns from from the beast. Because I had sex with a beast, and I just. That's why you gotta love romanticism. It's like, why? Who wants this? Like, who wants to have sex with a beast and then have a baby with horns, you know? Yeah. Also. But this is where my mind goes is the most problematic thing for me here, actually, was the amount of time in books, not just romance books, but this is also just a popular plot creation. Point is, people have sex one time and they are pregnant. This does not happen as much in I mean like obviously it does happen, but the percentage of one night stands in books that result in pregnancy because they're like, what an interesting plot device. Now she has her entire life affected by this horned child versus in real life, she was very excited about the horned child, to be clear, but glad I'm happy for her. Mazel tov. The yes. Realizing once you started. Like when? Like your friends started trying to have babies and all that, but they had to like time it right with certain times of the month, and that even when that would happen, like cycles would still pass without babies. I was like, wait a second. Like, didn't we used to do like, frantic pregnancy tests if we weren't sure the condom was on the right way? Yeah, we had, we had, yeah, I had eventually conceived through IVF, but I'm like, man, the amount of sex I could have been having with horned beasts and like, no consequences. It's just disappointing to realize this when I'm thirty. Your twenties could have been wild. They could have been. There could have been so many horned beasts. Figuratively speaking, of course. SJ, since I know that you do not read the same dirty things as I do, have you been hitting any Amish romantic books lately? Okay, so we were talking about the format for this episode, and I don't know how I somehow brought it up, I think because. So I've never actually read one disclaimer. Um, I will read one. Well, okay. No, I don't think that I will read one for a future read one. But then I then I'd also become addicted. And the next thing you know, you won't. I've read one hundred romance books I read, and I read an article about the genre in the Wall Street Journal, of all places, um, which basically summarized them up. Like all romance, it's very tropey. So I think I kind of get the picture already. And, um, they are called bonnet rippers, like bodice rippers, but they're like, um, Amish. So you're like, oh man, this is going to be so racy. And I know, Kay, that you were hoping that it would be kind of this, like ultimate fantasy of the good girl breaking free and just finding her, um, you know, sexual, passionate side. Um, they're not that. No, they're very G-rated. Um, but they're immensely popular. And, um, even have some Amish readers, but the main audience is Christian women reading them. And I think in part because it's a way to enjoy the romance genre without breaking out of your good girl, you know, you're not ready to break out of that. But you do love the romance. You love the Romeo and Juliet forbidden romance kind of aspect of it, but you don't want to break free. Yeah, so I think that you would be very disappointed by these. Um, but one, one author's perspective on it was also that maybe it is a way of fantasizing because, you know, fantasy can be anything, whether it's like fantasizing and maybe you do want that, but maybe you don't actually want it in your real life. You just want to be able to kind of explore in a safe way, um, something that feels off limits or unavailable to you or even taboo. So obviously, a lot of the ones that we talk about are more like, I feel like we get into joking a lot about these things where it's like this man, behemoth, beast body that is like, ah, what we're saying, like all these women reading it, that we actually want to be fucked by a giant, hairy, horned beast. Maybe not. Maybe you just want a safe way to explore that. And so her point was, maybe with this, it's just exploring, fantasizing about things like rejecting modernity. Like we don't actually want to go live without a shower and, you know, electricity and all that. But it's a fun thing to fantasize about or fantasizing about being pulled out of this hypersexual world that we live in. And just having romance in this very, like, old fashioned, um, you know, safe kind of way, or even just like a rejection of our, of our individualistic culture. I'll probably have to read one just so that I know that I'm not interested, because I can probably do it. Or if you are looking for a opportunity because it seems like some, uh, parts of the romance novel market are very saturated. So I think maybe where there's an opportunity for you to break in with your own, uh, writing is to have the Amish romance, but the really trashy kind, where she suddenly discovers that she just likes being, you know, bent over. I have to cross over my two books, and she wants to be a good girl. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Amish bad girls. I think that there's room for you there. There was only one sexually explicit one that I found. And I do think you should also read this because it did sound fun. It's called a forbidden rumspringa. Rumspringa? I don't know, Maya. We'll have to ask my, um, to ask people I know from from that part of the country. Um, by Kira Adams. Um, so this was. I found it on, like, romance dot io. They have, like, reviews of the books, and they're like Christian ladies who like to read Amish romance. This is not it for you. They're like, this is sexually explicit. It's LGBT. So it's an Amish. Oh, my God. Like man. Young man, like so many love. It's breaking so many rules. So it sounded very naughty. And I do think that you should read that one and, um, come back with a book review for us and then compare it to, um, I do have a list for you of the top authors, including ones that are widely read by Amish women themselves, but secretly under the bed covers because it's still racy by Amish standards. So I want you to read that too, so that you can come up with your outline for your Bad Girls Amish book. So I recommended a book to my sister the other day that was just a really good fantasy book, and she texted me back, how dare you recommend a book to me that has no sex scenes? We've come to expect certain things from you. Okay. She's she's the same, though she does recommend some that don't have any sex in them. And I'm like, I thought that we were on the same page, but I guess I guess we aren't. Um, so going into media archetypes, how is the good girl trope represented in popular culture? And we'll go ahead and say that the popular culture is not Kelly's smut, even though I continue to continually try to make the argument like this is way more widespread than we all realize. People love to be called good girls, but I'm not talking about that particular. I do want to think. I do want to link the rise of that to the e-reader. And I mean, before that, you could definitely be reading your smut on the train, but you had to, like, viciously switch on Kindle Unlimited, your copy of The Iliad or whatever. And now that you can just be reading whatever you want on the screen, I have definitely looked over. When you're sharing a seat, you can still see what's on people's screens and people are reading shit on the train. I'm like, okay, yeah. This old lady kept on trying to talk to me while I was flying with my little son to Disney. He's five. He can't read what's on my screen, and she kept on trying to talk and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm in the middle of a scene and my son is distracted, right, with his own thing right now. Like you need to stop. Yeah, yeah. You're like you're really killing the vibe here. But also the eight oh three I think are like archives of our own, uh, where there's a lot of fanfic. There's some amazing Hermione Granger Draco Malfoy For fanfic. They're worth checking out. I realize it's not your thing, but the ultimate bad boys, I don't know, it could be. We'll have a future episode where I'll. I'll have to just get into some new we. We sometimes talk about our two book clubs or why don't yours is more of an online minds, just like the amazing romantic subreddit I love you. Yeah, exactly. Kayla is online and is, yeah, entirely romantic and smut focused. And mine is like my book club. That's reading, like, all the latest contributions to literature. Yeah. You all. I need a break from that sometimes, but I appreciate that you all go and you have intelligent, high brow discussions about, again, these contributions to literature, these really thought provoking things. And I just can't personally imagine sitting down with like, a table full of eight women and be like, so what do we think of the final thing that we got? Yeah, the motifs in this sex scene. Yeah. How how big was the guy's penis described in this book. I don't know. Then you can make a little chart of relative penis sizes for reference as you review different books. That seems helpful. The one that I read over the weekend by Anna Huang and Huang. I really, really love you, but I really wish that you would get off this. Like every guy needs to be a billionaire thing. It's just not a thing for me. I was like, ah, yet another billionaire character. But he was so big that when they had sex, it felt like she was gonna he was going to come out of her throat. And I'm like, what? Like, what do you have? Like a three foot penis? Like, this is so unnecessary. Um, so now going into media archetypes. I distracted myself. I meant to tell you that thing with coming out of the throat. What on earth? This is like a I'm just imagining me up. I'm imagining, like, a what's the colorectal cancer test that they go through? Colonoscopy. Yeah. Like the scope. Yeah. Like when you say like a penis is that big. I'm imagining more like colonoscopy scope than like an enjoyable experience. Like a pap smear. Yeah, where they're, like, jabbing you in the cervix with that little cotton swab thing. Like, did it break your uterus? I'm so confused. Like, who wants this? And, Anna, that's not. You're amazing. I think that you're. I really like your writing style, that's why. But again. Yeah, I think a lot of these we may just, like, touch back on, like, there's something about, like, using fantasy to explore things that are taboo and not have to actually experience them. You can enjoy reading about them without wanting to actually experience that in real life. And maybe you do want to experience that in real life, and you should do that in a safe situation where there's medical personnel standing by to repair your punctured uterus, guy who has a penis that is like what you describe these things as if they're like tree trunks and you want to try, like, I hope you enjoy. Just ask him to, you know, just tell him, tell me to be a good girl and put an ice pack on my pussy. Now. That's what you're going to need. An ice pack for my pussy. It's funny how good boy doesn't really work that same way, does it? I jokingly did it once last night. It didn't work. Don't worry. It wasn't. It wasn't even bad. I was just like, can you go get me a glass of water? Like a good boy? And he's like, never again. I'm gonna try this double standards again. If you don't like it being done to you, then how do you expect your female partner to want it done to her? Actually, before I left the house, I asked my my husband. I said, you know, what is your number? I'm like, I have some guesses, but I don't actually know what it is. And he's like, well, what's yours? And I was like, ah, I don't want to share because it's probably like higher than you think it is. And he's like, that's funny because I don't want to share because it's probably depressingly low. But it was funny how like, I think that our number in reality is probably somewhere around the same place, but to me it's like, ooh, pretty high for a girl. And for him it's like pretty low for a guy. Yeah, there's that interesting double standard again. And you see that with the the setups in in books a lot where the I mean if the girl I think now you're starting to see more where the women the woman can have some sexual experience and still kind of come, come in into the. Yeah. That it's still acceptable. Um, but I think that there's. Yeah. Again, the ideal number for the woman is still low, lower than the man's. And the ideal number for the man is higher like he you there there are fewer examples where the man comes in kind of virginal and inexperienced, and he's the one that has to be taught. But I'm sure there are some some good examples in there still. I cannot think of a single example of that I've read recently where the guy is a virgin, but I'm going to keep. Oh, there was one where the guy loved the girl so much that he was like, waiting. And that was like the big crux of the book. But I think even in that case, he somehow, like I did, read one. Um, weirdly, my grandma is very interested in this series, um, and has like a real attraction to the guy who plays the lead in the the TV version, but Outlander. So I did read it because I was like, oh, what is this all about? Kind of lost interest in them after a few. But the first, the first ones were were pretty good sex scenes. Oh yeah, they have sex scenes. Oh my gosh. Which makes it even more entertaining for me. How, uh, much? My grandma loves it. Yeah, for whatever reason, I think because it's like historical in nature and it's not branded as smut, but, I mean, they are explicit sex scenes. I can't because my dad and my sister, who is like very shy and conservative, very, very lovely, but very shy and conservative, both read it almost together in tandem. I can't read it. I, I found it not listening to an audiobook together, but yeah. No, it's like when you are like watching a movie with your parents because you're like, oh, this was nominated for an Oscar. And then it still has like explicit sex scenes in it and you're like, oh shit, I'm gonna pause this and slink out of the room. But yeah, definitely thinking of my grandma. Just like getting titillated reading these scenes. I was like, go, grandma! One time me and like a very good friend, very close to her. So it was like a family. Uh, her and I were watching a movie with her dad, and then all of a sudden there was an unexpected sex scene, and it was like, ooh, I just want this to be over. He's probably feeling very awkward to all that. Not at all creepy, dad, just to be clear. Yeah. And he goes, ooh, she's like a member of the itty bitty titty club. And I was like, oh my God, can you never say that again? Like, we were just supposed to all pretend like we weren't watching this together. So a really big thing among immediate archetypes that you saw a lot, and I saw a lot of growing up when I used to watch more TV shows, catered for teenage girls, etc. is the idea of the girl being innocent and sexually inexperienced, and she needs to be awakened by the guy. And you see that in movies, books, all that catered for that age range. And I just wonder how much that plays into this idea that, like, you're a way to be an ideal woman for the love of your life is to be like, virginal. And yeah, this gift that is for one man to open up and that he kind of gets that experience of like instructing you in the ways of of carnal pleasures. Yes. I almost wonder, like if if we could do, uh, like a study, we obviously can't do it. But if we, if we were like in our mid twenties and weren't with partners, you know, like, what would have more what would guys respond to more? You pretending like you're like hyper experienced. You totally know it. You really, like, want to have sex. You're going to grab this or you're like, I've never had it before, but like, I really would love you to teach me. And like, how do guys respond to those different situations and which ones get a call back the next day and like a date afterwards compared to like a oh, that girl like went through the ringer. She's been with everybody. She's a village bicycle. So I'm not gonna do that again. Although I feel like now there's also just more of a distaste for the extremes. Like I do wonder in the modern dating scene, if you were like, this is my first time, I feel like I would be like, okay, whoa, that is like I wasn't. I was just like, hoping for a nice little night of fun and not, like instructing you in the ways of, I wonder, unless it's like, is this, like, still instinctive for guys as you're yes, we are out of touch with the younger. We are gonna go ask our friends who are still in the dating world and report back on that one what they want to see. Um, you see, like, you know, the girl next door as, like, being, like, a very sweet, safe girl. Doesn't wear too much makeup. She also doesn't know that she is beautiful. Like the wonder is that one absolutely does not know that she's beautiful. Oh, and needs a man to tell her how beautiful she is. And then she takes off her glasses and she's hot. Yeah. Taylor Swift wearing big glasses and being in the marching band, but having no idea that she's beautiful. Hot. Oh, yeah. Taylor Swift loves to do that in her songs. Like, especially her early songs of, like, she wears short shorts, I wear t shirts, she's cheerleader and I'm on the bleachers or whatever. I'm like, always been the cheerleader. Don't think that Taylor Swift is just like going through high school as this, you know, painfully awkward and nerdy person. Taylor Swift I think that you are always hot, and it's just like, that's like. That's like when you see girls on, like, reality dating shows that are like super hot and just like more of that kind of stereotype and they're like, oh, I have just always been the nerdy one. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but nerds everywhere disagree. Yes. As a fellow nerdy one, I can tell you, yeah, we looked a lot different. Yeah, we did not have any boys wanting to date us in middle school. Thank you very much. Yeah, this definitely all came with this expectation that like your way to be a dream girl for a guy and as a super, you know, future wife and all that was to be very sweet, very soft, virginal, yet eventually experienced, but not too experienced, just experienced enough but give really good head on your first try. Yeah, just know exactly what you're doing. One of my friends said that her friend, when she went to go down on a guy for the first time, she just took blowjob, literally. So she was literally like. And the guy felt bad. He's like, no, no. It's like very sweet. It's just that's not it. Yeah. Which I mean, guys are much more clueless down there than girls are, at least for girls. Yeah. I feel like there are a lot of men doing the equivalent of that when they go down on a woman. But like, also, maybe the woman doesn't even know enough to tell them otherwise. And they're like, I guess this is just like, gosh. But based on the number of women who have by like a certain age not experienced an orgasm, there are there must be a lot of men out there that don't know what they're doing. So yeah. Oh my gosh, boys are just out there in like high school and college. I think that the best way to do it is just to put a bunch of fingers in. Yeah, it's deep, deep and a bunch. Yeah. Well, and you would get this from movies that you would think that most women are coming through just like vaginal penetration, like P and V sex, which nothing else is needed. Yeah. For a lot of women, that's just not gonna happen. Damn straight into there. And also it's going to be after a night of drinking when you're probably a little dehydrated and it's going to work great. This sounds like a lot of college sex with our little plastic condom. It's going to be the best sex you've ever had. Yeah, yeah. And then, um, yeah. But I think that it's kind of interesting because if we're talking about archetypes, then like talking about the religious upbringing, that probably created a lot of this context for us. Um, so it's really interesting to think how when you talk like in Christian mythology, it's always like the downfall of humanity is the temptation of Eve. And there's a lot of art and things portraying this of kind of this fruit, which fruit has a very sexual context. So it's not just kind of tempting. There's it just kind of feeds into that. The woman is this temptress, so who? It leads to the man's downfall. And often by offering a role model than Mother Mary, who had never had sex before. Like, exactly. So you want to be married in the play? Yeah, you have the opposite of it. And that's the ideal, especially in Catholicism of biblical, of being a woman. Is this she's not just a virgin when she has Jesus. I think this was something I learned later about Catholics is this doctrine of perpetual virginity, that she somehow maintains her virginity through all time, which. Joseph. Come on. Yeah, well, do the Catholics not think that she. Because in in like Christian history. Jesus had a bunch of half brothers. And why was it even a thing? Like, why did he. Why? Why would it even be something that was like, aspired to and had to be said that like, oh, really? Like the only saint that gets to this level. And I think, like all many of the Catholic saints who are women are virgins. And so and a lot of them, they achieve sainthood by defending their virginity even to death. And so that's an interesting yeah, it's an interesting transition in Christianity in general that with the Catholic Church, um, you had the medieval Catholics who were just like, sex is impure. Um, so with Catholicism, you kind of keep all of this, that the way to achieve purity, um, or like ideal womanhood is really by maintaining your virginity. Like, you can go become a nun, or you can be Mary, who somehow manages to have children and stay a perpetual virgin. Um, but it kind of transitions in, um, American Christianity and especially evangelical Christianity that the ideal expression of womanhood, of pure womanhood is sex within the bounds of marriage, and that shifts from that. You should just kind of abstain for your entire life, which, like Saint Paul, is kind of famous for, like he has, he has no reason for sex also because he thinks the world is going to end within his lifetime. Um, and then you get to the US Christianity and it is that's I guess that's you as an ordained minister. I just don't get it. Like, why are religions so weird like that? Like, why bring sex into it? Why? Yeah. I don't know, because again, like, we just are, I think, like, shame about our bodies. Um. And. Yeah. And needing to control because it's very it is always different for men and for women and especially in this like evangelical context. I mean, not that they're like talking up men having sex outside of marriage, but the language is still very gendered around kind of the ideal of biblical womanhood versus biblical manhood. And with the women, there is a lot more around sexual purity in there and that that's like the ideal expression. But again, then you do get this. I mean, at least the Catholics were consistent with like sex is bad under all circumstances. Like you should avoid it as little as possible. If you are going to do it, then like it's a necessary evil to continue the human race versus it gets more fraught and confusing with the Christian evangelicals because it is this. That's where you get this idea of this switch that you flip, and then suddenly you are supposed to be, um, very awesome for your husband. Yeah, yeah. Supposed to be just a mom in the streets, but a freak in the sheets, which is us. That's us. That's so my college, one of my college roommates. I came in, and I don't think I realized exactly how much I was sharing or letting, like, my beliefs as that I was raised with as a as a Catholic girl be known. Because in my head, I was just saying things that everybody believed and agreed with. But I was actually saying some things that if you were raised in a different society, different culture would be like what this girl is like against masturbating, like what's happening? And so I walked in on one of my college girlfriends, and I noticed that she was like, looking down, but I had no idea what was going on. And so I was like, oh, whoops. Private moment, like, close the door. And then she came into my room afterwards and was like, I wanted to let you know that I was plucking my ingrown pubic hairs when I, when when you walked in and I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't really think about it, but I'm sorry. And then I found out from another friend later on that she was actually masturbating, but she was too embarrassed to tell me because of the shame that I had accidentally let her feel about those situations. And it's just there's different things like that. The same way as, I don't know, like, I feel like I used to have outdated views towards depression and I would share them without even realizing that the people around me might have diagnosed depression, might be underneath treatment for it, and that this idea that I've been raised like it's very much like elephant in the room and otherwise and all that, that when you're saying those things and some people feel less comfortable around you. Yeah, I'm sure that is a really good point. I'm sure that I spent a lot of time, um, just sort of spouting off unexamined viewpoints that were just the things that I grew up with. And I, I know I definitely started off college that way and learned a lot over the course of college. Um, but it definitely just kind of came in spouting off viewpoints that were the things that had been indoctrinated into me as a child. Um, and then later you grew up with people who all felt the same way and all that. So you didn't even realize. Yeah. I mean, I guess like credit to us for at some point, like examining those viewpoints. And now I can't really go back. And I'm sure without thinking about it, I did all kinds of damage to people or, yeah, shut doors that might have been open for people to feel like they could have a conversation with me about things. And then I very much gave off the impression that I wasn't, um. Yeah, that that I, that I wasn't open to hearing those things or that I was going to be judgmental or close minded about it. So that's been a big thing that I'm, um, that I'm unlearning. Well, hopefully people will listen to this and they'll feel open or they'll go into their lives and they won't have people, you know, tell them that they're picking their ingrown pubic hairs instead of just committing about masturbation habits. And we can all talk about that. She was really just watching a little video about a pizza delivery guy who had more to deliver, and it didn't quite all fit in the pizza box. So, um, you know, be a good girl. Keep on listening to us. Yeah. Good girls everywhere unite. And we hope that you enjoyed this podcast where we explain a little bit about where we're coming from and why the name Good Girls and our kind of different main viewpoints on different things that, as you can see, are not fully formed viewpoints. They're more ones that we are actively exploring and we welcome you to explore with us. So thank you.","isPublished":true,"episodeNumber":1,"createdAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.508Z","updatedAt":"2025-08-26T02:24:51.508Z"}]